Self-Defense: The Right Thing to Do?

Off Topic
81

[quote]Kataklysm wrote:

Whatever with all your legal stuff, the way I see it, I was assaulted and threatened and I defended myself. I’m a kid, I fucked up, so do you on a daily basis. If you don’t have anything constructive to say I don’t need your lecture.

[/quote]

BULLSHIT. YOU were NOT assaulted. You went up to their car, you pulled off, you followed them, and you fought. That’s ASSAULT. Go ask any judge or lawyer or cop about what you pulled, they’d say you’re absolutely at fault.

And that “legal stuff” will come back to land your ass in county. They don’t give two shits if you’re a “kid who fucked up.” Half the motherfucker in PC will tell you the same thing, and the other half are innocent.

82

actually, he was pushed first, so that makes them the aggressors. Read the story.

83

I realize that the OP has said he was wrong.

But for the life of me I don’t think he grasps how serious that situation was, and how badly he could have been fucked.

84

[quote]grayman19 wrote:
actually, he was pushed first, so that makes them the aggressors. Read the story.[/quote]

Absolutely wrong.

That is a clear case of two willing partcipants engaging in a fight. Both could have been charged.

85

I believe his girl beat it into him. Mine would have done the same.

86

[quote]grayman19 wrote:

Discussion over.[/quote]

And just for good measure, who the fuck are you to say that any discussion is over?

87

The ruler of the known universe.

What does it matter who I am?

88

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
You have to carry a firearm anymore. Violence is accelerating daily. Having a small handgun in your possession, being licensed and trained how to use it, is one of the very best investments you will ever make.

[/quote]

Not that I’m against gun rights, because I’m pro-NRA, but that’s not a good solution.

If OP has a gun in that situation, he’s not posting about it right now, he’s sitting in jail for murder.

89

Wow I was such in a good mood after my workout.

Fightinirish I remember reading you alot in the combat sports forum, you always seem to support self-defense and beating the shit out of bad guys and not beeing a scared tool… what happened to all that?

I’ll make a couple of clarifications for you since you didn’t seem to have read the whole thread:

  • When I got out of the car, I was hoping to simply talk it out and explain myself with the guy. I didn’t go looking for a fucking fight. Read that again.

How the hell does confronting the guy to try and fix things up pacifically make me the agressor? With your explosive attitude, I’m curious as to what YOU would have done.

  • I’m not so defenseless. When the guy was on the ground, he was in a very vulnerable position because I had him choked. I could of had killed him or seriously hurt him at any second.

I think that might of had discouraged the other guys from attacking. Besides, I was on my knees, but they were facing me, about 5-6 feet to my 3 o’clock. That gives me plenty of time to roll and stand back up/run.

Anyways, I don’t want to argue about what could have happened anymore. And I certainly don’t want to talk with people who can’t make their point without insulting others.

90

[quote]Silverkin wrote:

  1. You either attempted to retreat or could show retreat was impossible – on this point alone, they could charge you with assault

  2. The threat must be immediate. No it wasn’t, until you pulled over.

  3. The threat must not be avoidable by any other condition. (So in a robbery if the baddie says “give me your money” and you trash him, you are the aggressor.)

  4. The reasonable person standard must apply, i.e., any other person in your situation would have felt threatened.

Again, it would be easy for a prosecuting attorney to argue that while their client might have nearly hit you with their car, you were, in fact not in danger. Flipping them off might then be taken as incitement.

– jj

God fucking damn it some of this fucked up bullshit needs to be changed.

If i’m getting robbed. Fuck the robber i will shoot him in the face even if he has only a knife. I come first, it’s about MY survival and wellbeing and NOT about the aggressor.

Fuck the aggressor, even if he’s just being stuid and making a mistake it’s HIS GODDAMN MISTAKE. People give way too much sympathy to aggressors. You FIGHT crime, don’t just bow under it and let paperwork handle it.

Even if i sound like a violent person from that. I have only once been in a fight in my whole life. I’ve always managed to talk my way out of it or de-escalate it. Except for that one time and it wasn’t pretty. When i’m forced to fight i will fight like an animal.[/quote]

In many cases you can use lethal force to prevent a felony to yourself or another. Also the classic is I was in fear for my life. As long as you can articulate that, in almsot all cases self defense is justified. As long as you didn’t seek it out or exacerbate the situation.

You don’t always have to retreat in many states such as Pa. But I would avoid trouble out in public.

Any time you defend yourself with great force, you better be able to justify it.

91

[quote]Kataklysm wrote:
Wow I was such in a good mood after my workout.
[/quote]

I’m going to be straight with you, completely here.

You’re getting this mixed up. You did not do any form of self defense. You were guilty of simple assault in the least because you fought someone.

The only way that’s self defense is if you had a flat tire, and were trying to change it, when these guys pulled over, started harrassing you, and came after you. That’s it.

You fought. What you did had absolutely nothing to do with self defense.

Me? I box because I love it. Absolutely love it, and I consider it the most useful tool out of any of the MA’s I have done. I roll because I enjoy that too.

Those guys weren’t “bad guys.” They may have been drunk or stoned or some shit, but the odds are is they’re not riding around on dirtbikes on friday nights with flamethrowers on their backs torching orphanages.

Some shit happened on the road. It pissed both of you off. It don’t matter who’s fault it was, it’s just SOME SHIT ON THE ROAD.

No offense, but I don’t believe you. Road rage is a completely illogical thing- you’re willing to put the next 30 years of your life on the line for some slight that may or may not have been intentional. Rarely does this happen in any other part of life when you’re sober.

You pulled off the road, got out of your car, and walked up to him. By doing that, you’re demonstrating a willingness to fight.

That guy wasn’t your friend. I’m sure both of you could care less whether the other fell off the planet or not. So why would you care about “fixing things?” Who gives a shit?

I’m not asking you, because I don’t care. But I’m telling you what a judge or lawyer would say, and I’m telling you they’d say they think it’s bullshit, just like I do.

My explosive attitude has gotten me in a lot of trouble, both at jobs and in bars. I’ve run from the cops enough, and done a lot of stupid things. It took getting hit in eye with a beer bottle to make me realize that fighting really sucked dick.

I’ve said it before- I’ve seen guys get hit with cue balls in socks, tiki torches, beer bottles, get stabbed by forks, knives, hit with bricks, you fuckin name it. What would I have done? Sure, I’d have given them the finger, and talked shit.

Would I have pulled off with them? No. No way is it worth it, ESPECIALLY if my girl is with me. I’m not putting her life at stake because some shitbag on the highway hurt my ego.

You grab her ass at a bar, yea, we’ll have problems. I’ll likely serve the probation for it too. But to me, that’s a physical advance on someone I love. Way different than reacting to something so insane as a traffic violation.

One time I had a guy get out of his car and talk shit to me at a light after I double lined him. I sat there with my window open and my door unlocked while he popped off, and waited for him to finish. When he was done, I said, “You done? Good. I’ll see you later.”

That pissed him off way more than me getting out and fighting over some stupidass shit.

Yes, you could have killed him. I never said you were defenseless. But those two guys could have incapacitated you easily.

This is what you’re not understanding- fights are massively unpredicatable. You’ve got my buddy on the ground and are trying to kill him? Good. I grab a tire iron and come smack you around.

You think you could roll and stand back up, but let’s say a rock is on the ground that you didn’t see and you roll your ankle trying to stand up. Now you’re trying to fight on your feet with a fucked up ankle against two guys, one who has a tire iron and the other has been doing meth all night and isn’t going to feel it when you Muay Thai his ass.

My point is that you think you had it all laid out- you didn’t. You had no idea of the circumstances or condition that they would be fighting under, or any idea of the millions of other possibilities.

[quote]

Anyways, I don’t want to argue about what could have happened anymore. And I certainly don’t want to talk with people who can’t make their point without insulting others. [/quote]

That’s fine. I’m a vulgar guy, and when I see shit like this I go off the handle because of the ignorance spewed. Deal with it. I’m doing you a favor.

92

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Silverkin wrote:

  1. You either attempted to retreat or could show retreat was impossible – on this point alone, they could charge you with assault

  2. The threat must be immediate. No it wasn’t, until you pulled over.

  3. The threat must not be avoidable by any other condition. (So in a robbery if the baddie says “give me your money” and you trash him, you are the aggressor.)

  4. The reasonable person standard must apply, i.e., any other person in your situation would have felt threatened. Again, it would be easy for a prosecuting attorney to argue that while their client might have nearly hit you with their car, you were, in fact not in danger. Flipping them off might then be taken as incitement.

– jj

God fucking damn it some of this fucked up bullshit needs to be changed.

If i’m getting robbed. Fuck the robber i will shoot him in the face even if he has only a knife. I come first, it’s about MY survival and wellbeing and NOT about the aggressor.

Fuck the aggressor, even if he’s just being stuid and making a mistake it’s HIS GODDAMN MISTAKE. People give way too much sympathy to aggressors. You FIGHT crime, don’t just bow under it and let paperwork handle it.

Even if i sound like a violent person from that. I have only once been in a fight in my whole life. I’ve always managed to talk my way out of it or de-escalate it. Except for that one time and it wasn’t pretty. When i’m forced to fight i will fight like an animal.

In many cases you can use lethal force to prevent a felony to yourself or another. Also the classic is I was in fear for my life. As long as you can articulate that, in almsot all cases self defense is justified. As long as you didn’t seek it out or exacerbate the situation.

You don’t always have to retreat in many states such as Pa. But I would avoid trouble out in public.

Any time you defend yourself with great force, you better be able to justify it.

[/quote]

Exactly. I don’t think Batman up there understands that though.

93

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Kataklysm wrote:
Wow I was such in a good mood after my workout.

I’m going to be straight with you, completely here.

Fightinirish I remember reading you alot in the combat sports forum, you always seem to support self-defense and beating the shit out of bad guys and not beeing a scared tool… what happened to all that? I’ll make a couple of clarifications for you since you didn’t seem to have read the whole thread:

You’re getting this mixed up. You did not do any form of self defense. You were guilty of simple assault in the least because you fought someone.

The only way that’s self defense is if you had a flat tire, and were trying to change it, when these guys pulled over, started harrassing you, and came after you. That’s it.

You fought. What you did had absolutely nothing to do with self defense.

Me? I box because I love it. Absolutely love it, and I consider it the most useful tool out of any of the MA’s I have done. I roll because I enjoy that too.

Those guys weren’t “bad guys.” They may have been drunk or stoned or some shit, but the odds are is they’re not riding around on dirtbikes on friday nights with flamethrowers on their backs torching orphanages.

Some shit happened on the road. It pissed both of you off. It don’t matter who’s fault it was, it’s just SOME SHIT ON THE ROAD.

  • When I got out of the car, I was hoping to simply talk it out and explain myself with the guy. I didn’t go looking for a fucking fight. Read that again. How the hell does confronting the guy to try and fix things up pacifically make me the agressor? With your explosive attitude, I’m curious as to what YOU would have done.

No offense, but I don’t believe you. Road rage is a completely illogical thing- you’re willing to put the next 30 years of your life on the line for some slight that may or may not have been intentional. Rarely does this happen in any other part of life when you’re sober.

You pulled off the road, got out of your car, and walked up to him. By doing that, you’re demonstrating a willingness to fight.

That guy wasn’t your friend. I’m sure both of you could care less whether the other fell off the planet or not. So why would you care about “fixing things?” Who gives a shit?

I’m not asking you, because I don’t care. But I’m telling you what a judge or lawyer would say, and I’m telling you they’d say they think it’s bullshit, just like I do.

My explosive attitude has gotten me in a lot of trouble, both at jobs and in bars. I’ve run from the cops enough, and done a lot of stupid things. It took getting hit in eye with a beer bottle to make me realize that fighting really sucked dick.

I’ve said it before- I’ve seen guys get hit with cue balls in socks, tiki torches, beer bottles, get stabbed by forks, knives, hit with bricks, you fuckin name it. What would I have done?

Sure, I’d have given them the finger, and talked shit. Would I have pulled off with them? No. No way is it worth it, ESPECIALLY if my girl is with me. I’m not putting her life at stake because some shitbag on the highway hurt my ego.

You grab her ass at a bar, yea, we’ll have problems. I’ll likely serve the probation for it too. But to me, that’s a physical advance on someone I love. Way different than reacting to something so insane as a traffic violation.

One time I had a guy get out of his car and talk shit to me at a light after I double lined him. I sat there with my window open and my door unlocked while he popped off, and waited for him to finish. When he was done, I said, “You done? Good. I’ll see you later.”

That pissed him off way more than me getting out and fighting over some stupidass shit.

  • I’m not so defenseless. When the guy was on the ground, he was in a very vulnerable position because I had him choked. I could of had killed him or seriously hurt him at any second. I think that might of had discouraged the other guys from attacking.

Besides, I was on my knees, but they were facing me, about 5-6 feet to my 3 o’clock. That gives me plenty of time to roll and stand back up/run.

Yes, you could have killed him. I never said you were defenseless. But those two guys could have incapacitated you easily.

This is what you’re not understanding- fights are massively unpredicatable. You’ve got my buddy on the ground and are trying to kill him? Good. I grab a tire iron and come smack you around.

You think you could roll and stand back up, but let’s say a rock is on the ground that you didn’t see and you roll your ankle trying to stand up.

Now you’re trying to fight on your feet with a fucked up ankle against two guys, one who has a tire iron and the other has been doing meth all night and isn’t going to feel it when you Muay Thai his ass.

My point is that you think you had it all laid out- you didn’t. You had no idea of the circumstances or condition that they would be fighting under, or any idea of the millions of other possibilities.

Anyways, I don’t want to argue about what could have happened anymore. And I certainly don’t want to talk with people who can’t make their point without insulting others.

That’s fine. I’m a vulgar guy, and when I see shit like this I go off the handle because of the ignorance spewed. Deal with it. I’m doing you a favor.[/quote]

Well thanks for your post, you reformulated what everyone has been saying but you kept it polite I appreciate that.

I know that there’s nothing I can do or say to make you change your mind, but I just want to address one of your points:

"You pulled off the road, got out of your car, and walked up to him. By doing that, you’re demonstrating a willingness to fight.

That guy wasn’t your friend. I’m sure both of you could care less whether the other fell off the planet or not. So why would you care about “fixing things?” Who gives a shit? "

I agree that he probably wasn’t such a bad guy and that he was most likely a bit drunk. Real dangerous people are rare. That’s why my intent was REALLY to talk it out. It,s not so uncommon to just discuss in such situations. When I pulled off, I didn’t even know why I was.

I was pissed off, but I’m not aggressive at all, I got off of my car with the intention to discuss. I know that was stupid of me and that I should have known better than to take that risk.

But in most situations it could have worked, we could of just had words and parted ways. Anyways, all I wanna say is, I never tried to instigate a fight.

Now if you still don’t believe me, too bad.

94

great fucking post FI.

95

[quote]Kataklysm wrote:

I know that there’s nothing I can do or say to make you change your mind, but I just want to address one of your points:

"You pulled off the road, got out of your car, and walked up to him. By doing that, you’re demonstrating a willingness to fight.

That guy wasn’t your friend. I’m sure both of you could care less whether the other fell off the planet or not. So why would you care about “fixing things?” Who gives a shit? "

I agree that he probably wasn’t such a bad guy and that he was most likely a bit drunk. Real dangerous people are rare. That’s why my intent was REALLY to talk it out. It,s not so uncommon to just discuss in such situations. When I pulled off, I didn’t even know why I was.

I was pissed off, but I’m not aggressive at all, I got off of my car with the intention to discuss. I know that was stupid of me and that I should have known better than to take that risk.
[/quote]

That’s well and good. Then consider me Dre to your inner Eminem- always think about the consequences of your actions!

Think about how it appears to others, because you will never be able to prove your intentions to a court.

It’s the same when you get into a barfight. If things begin to escalate, it is very easy to slide your feet into either a narrow boxing stance, or a sanchin stance while talking to someone. This will give you a good base from which to fire, but at the same time can be nearly imperceptible to an untrained person.

While you do that, however, you keep your hands up and open, palms facing the aggressor. You can still strike from this position, but it’s also a nonviolent stance by it’s very nature. This way, if the cops have people to interview and arrest later on, you still look like the nonagressive, defensive minded guy.

Is it a pain in the ass? Yea. But nothin ruins your summer more than a court date hanging over your head, so you have to think about these things.

[quote]
But in most situations it could have worked, we could of just had words and parted ways. Anyways, all I wanna say is, I never tried to instigate a fight.

Now if you still don’t believe me, too bad. [/quote]

Maybe in Canada, amigo.

You pull off the highway when someone wants you to in New Jersey, and get out of your car, you better be ready to bang.

96

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:
duffyj2 wrote:
where do you work that they let you bring in a hunting rifle? haha

America.

I live in america as well. Nowhere around here would allow you to bring a gun into work, except maybe the hunting stores.

Then again, i live in Illinois, which has strict gun laws. You can’t even get a CCW permit here unless you’re police, a mayor, or an alderman. .[/quote]

Wittiest thing I could come up with at the time. It is, patently, not true.

Not as mad as you might think though…

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/07/eveningnews/main672240.shtml

97

[quote]beatnik_uwo wrote:

  1. you did put your girlfriend in serious danger because you know she wasn’t going to leave you behind if the 3 dudes were going to kick the shit out of you

  2. you should’ve taken your baseball bat with you, by getting out of the car you were inciting a fight

  3. teach your girlfriend to sneak up behind the guy and kick him in the balls, that’s what I’ve done

  4. you are a fucktard

  5. your muay thai classes have taught you nothing if you had the guy down and went for a mount with 2 other people around, one kick and it’s lights out, even in that dominant position, get up and back up, ready to fight the other two…or go get your bat

  6. you all should be arrested[/quote]

  7. So Mr. Appeasement carries a baseball bat with him?

  8. By using yourself as a model?

  9. You sir, are a fucktard.

98

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
great fucking post FI.[/quote]

Yep, second that.

99

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

That’s well and good. Then consider me Dre to your inner Eminem- always think about the consequences of your actions!

Think about how it appears to others, because you will never be able to prove your intentions to a court.

It’s the same when you get into a barfight. If things begin to escalate, it is very easy to slide your feet into either a narrow boxing stance, or a sanchin stance while talking to someone. This will give you a good base from which to fire, but at the same time can be nearly imperceptible to an untrained person.

While you do that, however, you keep your hands up and open, palms facing the aggressor. You can still strike from this position, but it’s also a nonviolent stance by it’s very nature. This way, if the cops have people to interview and arrest later on, you still look like the nonagressive, defensive minded guy.

Is it a pain in the ass? Yea. But nothin ruins your summer more than a court date hanging over your head, so you have to think about these things.

Maybe in Canada, amigo.

You pull off the highway when someone wants you to in New Jersey, and get out of your car, you better be ready to bang.[/quote]

Yeah I totally agree. It wouldn’t have been the same in NJ or texas or whatever, but then, I wouldn’t have done this knowing how dangerous it could be.

I think it was karma :stuck_out_tongue: I avoided fights so often and saved so many people’s butt by descalating their situation that I probably got lucky this one time.
Anyways, good post FI thanks for your contribution.

EDIT: I don’t really believe in karma. Was just bullshitting.

100

[quote]Vicomte wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
He started making gestures suggesting me to pull out, my girlfriend yelled to me to just keep going and ignore them but at that point I was just reckless and I pulled off.

Stopping your vehicle, jumping out and beating him. Where’s the self defense?

uh, didn’t they like try to push him off the road?

ya know… that could be dangerous

How was pulling off the road with them improving his self defense situation? They could have run him over when he got out, or shot him, and then raped his girlfriend and then shot her.

Self-defense, in that situation, would be to try to evade or pulling out a pistol, as running someone off the road calls for the use of deadly force to defend oneself and others. It’s assault with a deadly weapon.

Haven’t you ever felt the need to just throw down? OP was insulted, with his girl, no less, and he fucked the guy up. It’s not smart, and it’s not safe, but it’s fucking neccesary. Honor may seem quaint and antiquated, but that doesn’t mean it should be ignored.[/quote]

What is honorable is to protect the persons you are with. Excacerbating the situation was not “honorable”, it was poor judgement. He placed himself and his girlfriend from a dangerous situation into dangerous position with even less options.

Gone are the days you can just get into a fist fight and walk away.

That being said, at 18, I would have gotten the 4 D-cell mag light out of my trunk and started wailing. Learn from the mistakes of others, OP.