Screw the Poor

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
I’ve had two jobs already, and I’ve always started at higher then minimum wage.

I was 15 and 16…

Hey orion,

Admittedly, this evidence is a bit anecdotal, but seeing this (a young teenager working/living in a Midwestern state who has never worked at minimum wage) do you think the minimum wage is set above or below market value in the US?

market value for what? do all jobs have the same market value?[/quote]

exactly. Not to mention where I live we have several namesake factories. Namely johnsonville and kohler. My town is going be able to weather this recession much better then others.

102

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
I’ve had two jobs already, and I’ve always started at higher then minimum wage.

I was 15 and 16…

Hey orion,

Admittedly, this evidence is a bit anecdotal, but seeing this (a young teenager working/living in a Midwestern state who has never worked at minimum wage) do you think the minimum wage is set above or below market value in the US?
[/quote]

Usually below because politicians are usually not that stupid. They will raise it every now and then to pander to their base without doing any real damage.

That changes though in a recession when the price of labor is not allowed to drop beneath the minimum wage.

103

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
danc2469 wrote:
jawara wrote:
As a person who has been poor before I dont say FUCK THEM. I say give them the opportunity to better themselves…if they don’t want to then say FUCK THEM. I really don’t care how many ethnic minorities say they are oppressed here in America, if my 13th grade black ass can earn a living, ANYONE can, as long as they are willing to work hard and they have opportunities to better themselves.

X2
I think the problem is they are not willing to work at all. It is easier to sit at home and collect your government subsidy than it is to work 60 hrs a week at a job you don’t like much. Me, I perfer to have the finer things in life. Like food, a car, a house,a cement pond, and a gym memebership.

what if there are no jobs or they pay less than welfare ?

There are always jobs and then welfare would be too high.

Can’t argue with logic like that:)

In fact you can´t.

What you want is to distort the market with minimum wages and welfare while still expecting it to do its job, allocting resources.

Sorry. won´t work that way.

Some people call it living in a civilized society.
You do realize that just because you state your case as though it were fact, it is still just your opinion

No, that you cannot interfere with the market without lowering overall utility is actually a logical necessity.

What utility is going to be lowered ?

Deadweight loss. You get it anytime you interfere with the market, because total economic surplus is maximized at natural equilibrium.

Micro-econ 101.

What society has proved this theory?

Everyone so far, but that is really just plain logic.

Whether economic efficiency is the end all and be all of a society is debatable, that interfering with the market makes it less efficient at allocating resources is really not.
[/quote]

I think you mean no one

104

[quote]Otep wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
How you come to the conclusion that it implies that all the work is done, is beyond me. What it says is there is not enough work to keep all the workers busy

I know you subscribe to the market rules philosophy, what prosperous Country has a working model?

I can’t address that top part.

For the bottom, China comes pretty close, I think. But it’s worth pointing out they have a pretty strong anti-immigration policy… not just towards westerners. You have to get a permit to travel to Beijing or Shanghai or Shenzen to seek work. This is to prevent massive unemployment and the social problems it causes (higher crime-rates and tourism-killing are the first that come to mind).

So it’s not entirely free market.[/quote]

Also they killed two of the people selling melamine in place of protein

105

[quote]John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
Earn your keep.

No, poor people should not be entitled to free lunches, health care or housing.

They should make themselves useful, earn a living and buy the shit like everybody else.

It’s not so much that society fucks the poor as it is the poor fuck themselves. Repeatedly.

It is your attitude that fucks the poor

How is it his attitude that is fucking the poor? It’s hard work but anyone can bring themselves up. When my dad died my mom had 5 of us and she worked full time and went to college.

If someone drop out of high school they can go get there GED go to community college and either stop there and get a job that will pay good or they can transfer to a full time college and continue.

The poor can either use the opportunities that are being given to them like I am or they can continue to do what they are doing now.

I believe I have answered this question before, but there are more people looking for work than there are jobs. Supply and demand are in the favor of the people looking for employees. That drives down the price of labor. If you have a very industrious person that goes out and gets a job. That means a person that is less industrious has just lost a job

Where do you live that there are not enough jobs to meet the demand of the labor force? What you can’t drive 10-15 minutes to the next town to get a job? Guess what I know many people who do that.

It’s know ones fault but there fault for where they are at.[/quote]

Scottsdale AZ, but if you want to get a better Idea , go to Youngstown Ohio, Flint Michigan, Gary Indiana, Dearborn . I could go on all day

106

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
danc2469 wrote:
jawara wrote:
As a person who has been poor before I dont say FUCK THEM. I say give them the opportunity to better themselves…if they don’t want to then say FUCK THEM. I really don’t care how many ethnic minorities say they are oppressed here in America, if my 13th grade black ass can earn a living, ANYONE can, as long as they are willing to work hard and they have opportunities to better themselves.

X2
I think the problem is they are not willing to work at all. It is easier to sit at home and collect your government subsidy than it is to work 60 hrs a week at a job you don’t like much. Me, I perfer to have the finer things in life. Like food, a car, a house,a cement pond, and a gym memebership.

what if there are no jobs or they pay less than welfare ?

There are always jobs and then welfare would be too high.

Can’t argue with logic like that:)

In fact you can´t.

What you want is to distort the market with minimum wages and welfare while still expecting it to do its job, allocting resources.

Sorry. won´t work that way.

Some people call it living in a civilized society.
You do realize that just because you state your case as though it were fact, it is still just your opinion

No, that you cannot interfere with the market without lowering overall utility is actually a logical necessity.

What utility is going to be lowered ?

Deadweight loss. You get it anytime you interfere with the market, because total economic surplus is maximized at natural equilibrium.

Micro-econ 101.

What society has proved this theory?

Everyone so far, but that is really just plain logic.

Whether economic efficiency is the end all and be all of a society is debatable, that interfering with the market makes it less efficient at allocating resources is really not.

I think you mean no one
[/quote]

There has never been a totally free society, yes, but the freer the markets are the better they develop-

That was true for every society that ever existed though.

107

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
Earn your keep.

No, poor people should not be entitled to free lunches, health care or housing.

They should make themselves useful, earn a living and buy the shit like everybody else.

It’s not so much that society fucks the poor as it is the poor fuck themselves. Repeatedly.

It is your attitude that fucks the poor

How is it his attitude that is fucking the poor? It’s hard work but anyone can bring themselves up. When my dad died my mom had 5 of us and she worked full time and went to college.

If someone drop out of high school they can go get there GED go to community college and either stop there and get a job that will pay good or they can transfer to a full time college and continue.

The poor can either use the opportunities that are being given to them like I am or they can continue to do what they are doing now.

I believe I have answered this question before, but there are more people looking for work than there are jobs. Supply and demand are in the favor of the people looking for employees. That drives down the price of labor. If you have a very industrious person that goes out and gets a job. That means a person that is less industrious has just lost a job

Where do you live that there are not enough jobs to meet the demand of the labor force? What you can’t drive 10-15 minutes to the next town to get a job? Guess what I know many people who do that.

It’s know ones fault but there fault for where they are at.

Scottsdale AZ, but if you want to get a better Idea , go to Youngstown Ohio, Flint Michigan, Gary Indiana, Dearborn . I could go on all day[/quote]

From wiki

Scottsdale (O’odham Vaṣai S-vaṣonĭ; Yaqui Eskatel) is a city in the eastern part of Maricopa County, Arizona, United States, adjacent to Phoenix.

As of 2007 the population of the city was 240,410.[1] Scottsdale is regarded as an upscale tourist and shopping destination and as a representation of western American style. The New York Times described downtown Scottsdale as “a desert version of Miami’s South Beach” and as having “plenty of late night partying and a buzzing hotel scene”

Sounds like if you took time to go to community college or something you could do well there. Maybe the poor should get out of there entitlement line of thinking and put in some work.

And here is another kicker, If you go to college you can find a job in another town or even another state that pays great.

108

[quote]John S. wrote:

And here is another kicker, If you go to college you can find a job in another town or even another state that pays great.
[/quote]

I wonder, think the increased pay would compensate for the loss of community and support system? What if you have small children? What if your mom is sick?

“Just get up and move” is real easy when your a young man…not so much when you have some real obligations.

109

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
John S. wrote:

And here is another kicker, If you go to college you can find a job in another town or even another state that pays great.

I wonder, think the increased pay would compensate for the loss of community and support system? What if you have small children? What if your mom is sick?

“Just get up and move” is real easy when your a young man…not so much when you have some real obligations. [/quote]

So what if you have small children I moved around all the time when I was little.

If that pay could better support your child or your future child you better believe its worth it to leave your support system.

I understand that you support there lazy asses and are probably a lazy ass but there is no excuse. Hard work and dedication will get you to where you want/need to be.

110

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
John S. wrote:

And here is another kicker, If you go to college you can find a job in another town or even another state that pays great.

I wonder, think the increased pay would compensate for the loss of community and support system? What if you have small children? What if your mom is sick?

“Just get up and move” is real easy when your a young man…not so much when you have some real obligations. [/quote]

your mom being sick is one thing, but taking out a loan and working and going to school at the same time can help a lot to pay the bills untiul you get out of school. having kids you can’t afford isn’t anyone elses problem and is pretty irrelevant.

Life

111

[quote]John S. wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
John S. wrote:

And here is another kicker, If you go to college you can find a job in another town or even another state that pays great.

I wonder, think the increased pay would compensate for the loss of community and support system? What if you have small children? What if your mom is sick?

“Just get up and move” is real easy when your a young man…not so much when you have some real obligations.

So what if you have small children I moved around all the time when I was little. [/quote]

And look how you turned out (!)

[quote]
If that pay could better support your child or your future child you better believe its worth it to leave your support system.[/quote]

“if”

Yes, yes I support “there” lazy asses… I also support me some edumicationz lolzzz!!1!

112

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
John S. wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
John S. wrote:

And here is another kicker, If you go to college you can find a job in another town or even another state that pays great.

I wonder, think the increased pay would compensate for the loss of community and support system? What if you have small children? What if your mom is sick?

“Just get up and move” is real easy when your a young man…not so much when you have some real obligations.

So what if you have small children I moved around all the time when I was little.

And look how you turned out (!)

If that pay could better support your child or your future child you better believe its worth it to leave your support system.

“if”

I understand that you support there lazy asses and are probably a lazy ass but there is no excuse. Hard work and dedication will get you to where you want/need to be.

Yes, yes I support “there” lazy asses… I also support me some edumicationz lolzzz!!1!
[/quote]

I would say I am turning out alright, I return to college next semester and will be getting my degree in criminal justice.

See with a college degree you can get a job all over the United states, so if one place isn’t going to pay enough you can always find another place, keep looking and you will find what you need.

Oh and if you have to nit pick my spelling then you have lost. Tho you never did answer me are you one of those lazy asses.

113

[quote]orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
I’ve had two jobs already, and I’ve always started at higher then minimum wage.

I was 15 and 16…

Hey orion,

Admittedly, this evidence is a bit anecdotal, but seeing this (a young teenager working/living in a Midwestern state who has never worked at minimum wage) do you think the minimum wage is set above or below market value in the US?

Usually below because politicians are usually not that stupid. They will raise it every now and then to pander to their base without doing any real damage.

That changes though in a recession when the price of labor is not allowed to drop beneath the minimum wage.[/quote]

I would disagree with this. Minimum wage is exactly market value for those that employed at that wage. The problem is those not worth minimum wage will not be employed.

If minimum wage was accomplishing what it was intended to do, there would be a very large number of jobs that paid only the minimum wage. The fact that many people never work for minimum wage, even in high school, is evidence that it is not doing what it was intended to do.

We don’t need protection from evil employers that would otherwise be paying us all less than minimum wage.

It is a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist. All while making those worth less than minimum wage unemployable. I would say this is about par for the course when it comes to gov’t medeling in the free market. Intensions never match actual results.

114

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
John S. wrote:

And here is another kicker, If you go to college you can find a job in another town or even another state that pays great.

I wonder, think the increased pay would compensate for the loss of community and support system? What if you have small children? What if your mom is sick?

“Just get up and move” is real easy when your a young man…not so much when you have some real obligations. [/quote]

what’s your point. Yes, some people have a tough go of it. some becuase of their own action and some becuase of circumstance. That’s life. If you feel the need to help, then do it.

If you leave it to the gov’t they may help the truly unfortunate, along with a whole shit load of people that could take care of themselves in the absense of gov’t intervention. All at the expense of the entire nation and our overall quality of life.

If it were a zero sum game, not many would be bitching. The fact is we incure losses that are multiples of what it should cost to help the truly unfortunate.

Should the gov’t help the truly unfortunate? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn’t really matter. The fact of the matter is they are not capable of doing so in anything nearing a efficient manner. If I need money to fix my brakes, I don’t sell my engine to buy brakes.

115

[quote]John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
Earn your keep.

No, poor people should not be entitled to free lunches, health care or housing.

They should make themselves useful, earn a living and buy the shit like everybody else.

It’s not so much that society fucks the poor as it is the poor fuck themselves. Repeatedly.

It is your attitude that fucks the poor

How is it his attitude that is fucking the poor? It’s hard work but anyone can bring themselves up. When my dad died my mom had 5 of us and she worked full time and went to college.

If someone drop out of high school they can go get there GED go to community college and either stop there and get a job that will pay good or they can transfer to a full time college and continue.

The poor can either use the opportunities that are being given to them like I am or they can continue to do what they are doing now.

I believe I have answered this question before, but there are more people looking for work than there are jobs. Supply and demand are in the favor of the people looking for employees. That drives down the price of labor. If you have a very industrious person that goes out and gets a job. That means a person that is less industrious has just lost a job

Where do you live that there are not enough jobs to meet the demand of the labor force? What you can’t drive 10-15 minutes to the next town to get a job? Guess what I know many people who do that.

It’s know ones fault but there fault for where they are at.

Scottsdale AZ, but if you want to get a better Idea , go to Youngstown Ohio, Flint Michigan, Gary Indiana, Dearborn . I could go on all day

From wiki

Scottsdale (O’odham Vaṣai S-vaṣonĭ; Yaqui Eskatel) is a city in the eastern part of Maricopa County, Arizona, United States, adjacent to Phoenix.

As of 2007 the population of the city was 240,410.[1] Scottsdale is regarded as an upscale tourist and shopping destination and as a representation of western American style. The New York Times described downtown Scottsdale as “a desert version of Miami’s South Beach” and as having “plenty of late night partying and a buzzing hotel scene”

Sounds like if you took time to go to community college or something you could do well there. Maybe the poor should get out of there entitlement line of thinking and put in some work.

And here is another kicker, If you go to college you can find a job in another town or even another state that pays great.
[/quote]

I love Scottsdale, I hate the summers .I personally am doing fine.
All the resorts hire immigrants for as cheap as the law permits. We also have a huge illegal immigration problem. . So the labor market is subsidized by illegal immigration giving the employer big opportunity to lower wages. School is fine for some one young with no financial obligation, if some one had kids at home they may not be able to afford child care while they went to college, if they had a house they may not be able to sell it to move.

I know there are ways out of being poor, but I think the general attitudes of people help cement them into a pattern. We had a program for all day kindergarten that was the favorite kicking dog for our state Gov. Now that the economy turned south it had to be cut, but it was a social program that gave a small benefit to some of the poor.

116

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Otep wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
How you come to the conclusion that it implies that all the work is done, is beyond me. What it says is there is not enough work to keep all the workers busy

I know you subscribe to the market rules philosophy, what prosperous Country has a working model?

I can’t address that top part.

For the bottom, China comes pretty close, I think. But it’s worth pointing out they have a pretty strong anti-immigration policy… not just towards westerners. You have to get a permit to travel to Beijing or Shanghai or Shenzen to seek work. This is to prevent massive unemployment and the social problems it causes (higher crime-rates and tourism-killing are the first that come to mind).

So it’s not entirely free market.

Also they killed two of the people selling melamine in place of protein[/quote]

Yup. Two executions of criminals convicted through the chinese justice system. I’m not sure what this has to do with their economy.

117

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Otep wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
How you come to the conclusion that it implies that all the work is done, is beyond me. What it says is there is not enough work to keep all the workers busy

I know you subscribe to the market rules philosophy, what prosperous Country has a working model?

I can’t address that top part.

For the bottom, China comes pretty close, I think. But it’s worth pointing out they have a pretty strong anti-immigration policy… not just towards westerners. You have to get a permit to travel to Beijing or Shanghai or Shenzen to seek work. This is to prevent massive unemployment and the social problems it causes (higher crime-rates and tourism-killing are the first that come to mind).

So it’s not entirely free market.

A bit hung over, but did you just say that China is not “entirely” free market? What about property rights? SOEs? (maybe it was a joke that I’m too hungover to get?)[/quote]

No joke. China’s engaged in a pattern of transformation wrt it’s SOE’s, cutting about half of them and inviting investors (even foreign investors) minority stakes in the rest (thus making them slightly less SOE). I mean, yeah, they still exist, and in a big way, but with a top-end tax bracket of 15% and no real minimum wage, combined with very little red tape involved in actually starting a business… if Milton Friedman were alive, he’d might not live in Shanghai, but he’d look forlornly at it.

From over here, the US is a socialist country. The irony of which is depressing.

118

[quote]dhickey wrote:

It is a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist. All while making those worth less than minimum wage unemployable. I would say this is about par for the course when it comes to gov’t medeling in the free market. Intensions never match actual results.
[/quote]

But that is pretty much what I wrote.

Of course it hurts some people, but only very few if you set it low enough.

Since those hurt are not only poor but will never blame those really responsible who gives a fuck.

It is grandstanding, nothing more.

Once it becomes more than that it becomes a disastrous policy.

119

[quote]Otep wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Otep wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
How you come to the conclusion that it implies that all the work is done, is beyond me. What it says is there is not enough work to keep all the workers busy

I know you subscribe to the market rules philosophy, what prosperous Country has a working model?

I can’t address that top part.

For the bottom, China comes pretty close, I think. But it’s worth pointing out they have a pretty strong anti-immigration policy… not just towards westerners. You have to get a permit to travel to Beijing or Shanghai or Shenzen to seek work. This is to prevent massive unemployment and the social problems it causes (higher crime-rates and tourism-killing are the first that come to mind).

So it’s not entirely free market.

Also they killed two of the people selling melamine in place of protein

Yup. Two executions of criminals convicted through the chinese justice system. I’m not sure what this has to do with their economy.[/quote]

They at least interfere with they free market when it comes to bad propaganda of their so called free market. India probably has a pretty good free market also, and comparatively speaking we probably are socialists, because we have laws about consumer safety, Child labor, environmental, fair labor, wages,

I personally think the free market is an ideal, not a realistic approach, Greed is good in a totally free market, but greed has many downsides as well. I have to go back to who has a functioning free market that is a good example of how you would like to see America,

I am guessing Somalia probably, has closer to a free market than does China. There is nothing more free, than theft

120

[quote]orion wrote:
dhickey wrote:

It is a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist. All while making those worth less than minimum wage unemployable. I would say this is about par for the course when it comes to gov’t medeling in the free market. Intensions never match actual results.

But that is pretty much what I wrote.

Of course it hurts some people, but only very few if you set it low enough.

Since those hurt are not only poor but will never blame those really responsible who gives a fuck.

It is grandstanding, nothing more.

Once it becomes more than that it becomes a disastrous policy.
[/quote]

Right. My argument is that it doesn’t set anyones wage in any meaningful fashion.

If someone is not worth minimum wage, they won’t be hired.

If someone was worth minimum wage, they would have making it anyway.

If someone is worth more than minimum wage, they were already getting paid more than minimum wage.

I think I am generalizing a bit more, but that’s the point. I am sure there are a good number of people that got a raise when the minimum hourly wage went up. The question is what proportion of wage earners, and at what cost.

I don’t think I was disagreeing, just adding.