Screw the Poor

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Some people call it living in a civilized society.
You do realize that just because you state your case as though it were fact, it is still just your opinion

Since when are a minimum wage and welfare requirements for a civilized society?

Go find an adult who works for minimum wage. It is VERY hard to do.

Go to any Circle K or Seven Eleven. And you will find adults working 2 jobs at minimum wage.

I know people who work at Seven Eleven. They make more than minimum wage. Same with walmart workers. And Target workers.

They all make at least 20 cents more than minimum wage.

Where do you live that the minimum wage is so high?[/quote]

I see you live in New York, Do you think things may be different in other sections of America. Minimum wage in Youngstown Ohio would be better then $10 an hour in N.Y.C.
Holy smokes with 20 cents an hour which equals 8 dollars a week, I might buy a hamburger in N.Y.C.

82

[quote]FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
Earn your keep.

No, poor people should not be entitled to free lunches, health care or housing.

They should make themselves useful, earn a living and buy the shit like everybody else.

It’s not so much that society fucks the poor as it is the poor fuck themselves. Repeatedly.
[/quote]

It is your attitude that fucks the poor

83

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
danc2469 wrote:
jawara wrote:
As a person who has been poor before I dont say FUCK THEM. I say give them the opportunity to better themselves…if they don’t want to then say FUCK THEM. I really don’t care how many ethnic minorities say they are oppressed here in America, if my 13th grade black ass can earn a living, ANYONE can, as long as they are willing to work hard and they have opportunities to better themselves.

X2
I think the problem is they are not willing to work at all. It is easier to sit at home and collect your government subsidy than it is to work 60 hrs a week at a job you don’t like much. Me, I perfer to have the finer things in life. Like food, a car, a house,a cement pond, and a gym memebership.

what if there are no jobs or they pay less than welfare ?

There are always jobs and then welfare would be too high.

Can’t argue with logic like that:)

In fact you can´t.

What you want is to distort the market with minimum wages and welfare while still expecting it to do its job, allocting resources.

Sorry. won´t work that way.

Some people call it living in a civilized society.
You do realize that just because you state your case as though it were fact, it is still just your opinion

No, that you cannot interfere with the market without lowering overall utility is actually a logical necessity.
[/quote]

What utility is going to be lowered ?

84

[quote]FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
danc2469 wrote:
jawara wrote:
As a person who has been poor before I dont say FUCK THEM. I say give them the opportunity to better themselves…if they don’t want to then say FUCK THEM. I really don’t care how many ethnic minorities say they are oppressed here in America, if my 13th grade black ass can earn a living, ANYONE can, as long as they are willing to work hard and they have opportunities to better themselves.

X2
I think the problem is they are not willing to work at all. It is easier to sit at home and collect your government subsidy than it is to work 60 hrs a week at a job you don’t like much. Me, I perfer to have the finer things in life. Like food, a car, a house,a cement pond, and a gym memebership.

what if there are no jobs or they pay less than welfare ?

Then we are living in imaginary land.[/quote]

Especially now there are a lot of people living in your imaginary land

85

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
dhickey wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
I’ve had two jobs already, and I’ve always started at higher then minimum wage.

I was 15 and 16…

I can honestly say that I have never worked for minimum wage. I have working since I was 13. Obviously not hourly until 16.

Same. My two non-Uni sponsored jobs both started higher than minimum wage.[/quote]

I have never worked for minimum wage either, but you and I do not equal the population of America. I would say we probably have lot in common other than our attitude toward our fellow man.

86

[quote]FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
I’ve had two jobs already, and I’ve always started at higher then minimum wage.

I was 15 and 16…

I bet you didn’t sit around on your ass bitching about society and wondering why a job didn’t knock on your door either.

I used to work with this really dumb guy. Probably borderline retard which may be another story all together but everyday he bitched about bills and not wanting to pay them etc.

True story; his truck was repossessed and his cell phone was cut off more than it was on.

He was mad at the dealership for taking his truck back and the phone company every time they cut him off.

“I’ve paid thousands on it already!” “My phone don’t (doesn’t) even work half the damn time!” etc.

He is and will be poor his whole life because he is fucking stupid, feels entitled to shit and won’t manage his money or pay his bills. He always had money for cigarettes, beer, new shoes, designer clothes and even an occasional hooker if you believed some of his stories however.

We worked at a part time job together when I was in college, he was a townie from the college town. He had zero aspirations to achieve greater things and while college students came and went, he stayed put and is still there being a big, poor dumb ass.

This mentality is the prevalent attitude in poor communities whether people want to admit it or not and the lack of personal responsibility is to blame for most poor plights. So yes, fuck 'em. Or let them fuck themselves rather. [/quote]

Big smile on your face during the interview, being fluent, and going an extra mine to keep busy in front of the boss sure helped.

p.s. I just got a raise. I kick ass.

87

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
danc2469 wrote:
jawara wrote:
As a person who has been poor before I dont say FUCK THEM. I say give them the opportunity to better themselves…if they don’t want to then say FUCK THEM. I really don’t care how many ethnic minorities say they are oppressed here in America, if my 13th grade black ass can earn a living, ANYONE can, as long as they are willing to work hard and they have opportunities to better themselves.

X2
I think the problem is they are not willing to work at all. It is easier to sit at home and collect your government subsidy than it is to work 60 hrs a week at a job you don’t like much. Me, I perfer to have the finer things in life. Like food, a car, a house,a cement pond, and a gym memebership.

what if there are no jobs or they pay less than welfare ?

There are always jobs and then welfare would be too high.

Can’t argue with logic like that:)

In fact you can´t.

What you want is to distort the market with minimum wages and welfare while still expecting it to do its job, allocting resources.

Sorry. won´t work that way.

Some people call it living in a civilized society.
You do realize that just because you state your case as though it were fact, it is still just your opinion

No, that you cannot interfere with the market without lowering overall utility is actually a logical necessity.

What utility is going to be lowered ?
[/quote]

Deadweight loss. You get it anytime you interfere with the market, because total economic surplus is maximized at natural equilibrium.

Micro-econ 101.

88

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
Earn your keep.

No, poor people should not be entitled to free lunches, health care or housing.

They should make themselves useful, earn a living and buy the shit like everybody else.

It’s not so much that society fucks the poor as it is the poor fuck themselves. Repeatedly.

It is your attitude that fucks the poor

[/quote]

How is it his attitude that is fucking the poor? It’s hard work but anyone can bring themselves up. When my dad died my mom had 5 of us and she worked full time and went to college.

If someone drop out of high school they can go get there GED go to community college and either stop there and get a job that will pay good or they can transfer to a full time college and continue.

The poor can either use the opportunities that are being given to them like I am or they can continue to do what they are doing now.

89

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
danc2469 wrote:
jawara wrote:
As a person who has been poor before I dont say FUCK THEM. I say give them the opportunity to better themselves…if they don’t want to then say FUCK THEM. I really don’t care how many ethnic minorities say they are oppressed here in America, if my 13th grade black ass can earn a living, ANYONE can, as long as they are willing to work hard and they have opportunities to better themselves.

X2
I think the problem is they are not willing to work at all. It is easier to sit at home and collect your government subsidy than it is to work 60 hrs a week at a job you don’t like much. Me, I perfer to have the finer things in life. Like food, a car, a house,a cement pond, and a gym memebership.

what if there are no jobs or they pay less than welfare ?

There are always jobs and then welfare would be too high.

Can’t argue with logic like that:)

In fact you can´t.

What you want is to distort the market with minimum wages and welfare while still expecting it to do its job, allocting resources.

Sorry. won´t work that way.

Some people call it living in a civilized society.
You do realize that just because you state your case as though it were fact, it is still just your opinion

No, that you cannot interfere with the market without lowering overall utility is actually a logical necessity.

What utility is going to be lowered ?
[/quote]

Those of the system as a whole.

90

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
Earn your keep.

No, poor people should not be entitled to free lunches, health care or housing.

They should make themselves useful, earn a living and buy the shit like everybody else.

It’s not so much that society fucks the poor as it is the poor fuck themselves. Repeatedly.

It is your attitude that fucks the poor

[/quote]

Really?

How does that work?

I am going along, minding my own business and somehow, someone is fucked because of it?

How?

91

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
danc2469 wrote:
jawara wrote:
As a person who has been poor before I dont say FUCK THEM. I say give them the opportunity to better themselves…if they don’t want to then say FUCK THEM. I really don’t care how many ethnic minorities say they are oppressed here in America, if my 13th grade black ass can earn a living, ANYONE can, as long as they are willing to work hard and they have opportunities to better themselves.

X2
I think the problem is they are not willing to work at all. It is easier to sit at home and collect your government subsidy than it is to work 60 hrs a week at a job you don’t like much. Me, I perfer to have the finer things in life. Like food, a car, a house,a cement pond, and a gym memebership.

what if there are no jobs or they pay less than welfare ?

There are always jobs and then welfare would be too high.

Can’t argue with logic like that:)

In fact you can´t.

What you want is to distort the market with minimum wages and welfare while still expecting it to do its job, allocting resources.

Sorry. won´t work that way.

Some people call it living in a civilized society.
You do realize that just because you state your case as though it were fact, it is still just your opinion

No, that you cannot interfere with the market without lowering overall utility is actually a logical necessity.

What utility is going to be lowered ?

Deadweight loss. You get it anytime you interfere with the market, because total economic surplus is maximized at natural equilibrium.

Micro-econ 101.[/quote]

What society has proved this theory?

92

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
danc2469 wrote:
jawara wrote:
As a person who has been poor before I dont say FUCK THEM. I say give them the opportunity to better themselves…if they don’t want to then say FUCK THEM. I really don’t care how many ethnic minorities say they are oppressed here in America, if my 13th grade black ass can earn a living, ANYONE can, as long as they are willing to work hard and they have opportunities to better themselves.

X2
I think the problem is they are not willing to work at all. It is easier to sit at home and collect your government subsidy than it is to work 60 hrs a week at a job you don’t like much. Me, I perfer to have the finer things in life. Like food, a car, a house,a cement pond, and a gym memebership.

what if there are no jobs or they pay less than welfare ?

There are always jobs and then welfare would be too high.

Can’t argue with logic like that:)

In fact you can´t.

What you want is to distort the market with minimum wages and welfare while still expecting it to do its job, allocting resources.

Sorry. won´t work that way.

Some people call it living in a civilized society.
You do realize that just because you state your case as though it were fact, it is still just your opinion

No, that you cannot interfere with the market without lowering overall utility is actually a logical necessity.

What utility is going to be lowered ?

Deadweight loss. You get it anytime you interfere with the market, because total economic surplus is maximized at natural equilibrium.

Micro-econ 101.

What society has proved this theory?
[/quote]

Everyone so far, but that is really just plain logic.

Whether economic efficiency is the end all and be all of a society is debatable, that interfering with the market makes it less efficient at allocating resources is really not.

93

[quote]John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
Earn your keep.

No, poor people should not be entitled to free lunches, health care or housing.

They should make themselves useful, earn a living and buy the shit like everybody else.

It’s not so much that society fucks the poor as it is the poor fuck themselves. Repeatedly.

It is your attitude that fucks the poor

How is it his attitude that is fucking the poor? It’s hard work but anyone can bring themselves up. When my dad died my mom had 5 of us and she worked full time and went to college.

If someone drop out of high school they can go get there GED go to community college and either stop there and get a job that will pay good or they can transfer to a full time college and continue.

The poor can either use the opportunities that are being given to them like I am or they can continue to do what they are doing now.[/quote]

I believe I have answered this question before, but there are more people looking for work than there are jobs. Supply and demand are in the favor of the people looking for employees. That drives down the price of labor. If you have a very industrious person that goes out and gets a job. That means a person that is less industrious has just lost a job

94

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
Earn your keep.

No, poor people should not be entitled to free lunches, health care or housing.

They should make themselves useful, earn a living and buy the shit like everybody else.

It’s not so much that society fucks the poor as it is the poor fuck themselves. Repeatedly.

It is your attitude that fucks the poor

How is it his attitude that is fucking the poor? It’s hard work but anyone can bring themselves up. When my dad died my mom had 5 of us and she worked full time and went to college.

If someone drop out of high school they can go get there GED go to community college and either stop there and get a job that will pay good or they can transfer to a full time college and continue.

The poor can either use the opportunities that are being given to them like I am or they can continue to do what they are doing now.

I believe I have answered this question before, but there are more people looking for work than there are jobs. Supply and demand are in the favor of the people looking for employees. That drives down the price of labor. If you have a very industrious person that goes out and gets a job. That means a person that is less industrious has just lost a job

[/quote]

That would imply that all the work that could possibly be done in the US is already done.

Every roof fixed, every clogged drain cleaned, every car washed and polished, every article written, every company modernized, every street and bridge repaired and so on…

Since that is obviously not the case there is more than enough work, just not at the price that is artificially set by the government.

If you want to know what happens if you do not allow the price of labor to fall, look at the Great Depression. The result is of course massive unemployment.

95

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
Earn your keep.

No, poor people should not be entitled to free lunches, health care or housing.

They should make themselves useful, earn a living and buy the shit like everybody else.

It’s not so much that society fucks the poor as it is the poor fuck themselves. Repeatedly.

It is your attitude that fucks the poor

How is it his attitude that is fucking the poor? It’s hard work but anyone can bring themselves up. When my dad died my mom had 5 of us and she worked full time and went to college.

If someone drop out of high school they can go get there GED go to community college and either stop there and get a job that will pay good or they can transfer to a full time college and continue.

The poor can either use the opportunities that are being given to them like I am or they can continue to do what they are doing now.

I believe I have answered this question before, but there are more people looking for work than there are jobs. Supply and demand are in the favor of the people looking for employees. That drives down the price of labor. If you have a very industrious person that goes out and gets a job. That means a person that is less industrious has just lost a job

That would imply that all the work that could possibly be done in the US is already done.

Every roof fixed, every clogged drain cleaned, every car washed and polished, every article written, every company modernized, every street and bridge repaired and so on…

Since that is obviously not the case there is more than enough work, just not at the price that is artificially set by the government.

If you want to know what happens if you do not allow the price of labor to fall, look at the Great Depression. The result is of course massive unemployment.
[/quote]

How you come to the conclusion that it implies that all the work is done, is beyond me. What it says is there is not enough work to keep all the workers busy
I know you subscribe to the market rules philosophy, what prosperous Country has a working model?

96

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
How you come to the conclusion that it implies that all the work is done, is beyond me. What it says is there is not enough work to keep all the workers busy

I know you subscribe to the market rules philosophy, what prosperous Country has a working model?

[/quote]

I can’t address that top part.

For the bottom, China comes pretty close, I think. But it’s worth pointing out they have a pretty strong anti-immigration policy… not just towards westerners. You have to get a permit to travel to Beijing or Shanghai or Shenzen to seek work. This is to prevent massive unemployment and the social problems it causes (higher crime-rates and tourism-killing are the first that come to mind).

So it’s not entirely free market.

97

[quote]Otep wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
How you come to the conclusion that it implies that all the work is done, is beyond me. What it says is there is not enough work to keep all the workers busy

I know you subscribe to the market rules philosophy, what prosperous Country has a working model?

I can’t address that top part.

For the bottom, China comes pretty close, I think. But it’s worth pointing out they have a pretty strong anti-immigration policy… not just towards westerners. You have to get a permit to travel to Beijing or Shanghai or Shenzen to seek work. This is to prevent massive unemployment and the social problems it causes (higher crime-rates and tourism-killing are the first that come to mind).

So it’s not entirely free market.[/quote]

A bit hung over, but did you just say that China is not “entirely” free market? What about property rights? SOEs? (maybe it was a joke that I’m too hungover to get?)

98

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
I’ve had two jobs already, and I’ve always started at higher then minimum wage.

I was 15 and 16…[/quote]

Hey orion,

Admittedly, this evidence is a bit anecdotal, but seeing this (a young teenager working/living in a Midwestern state who has never worked at minimum wage) do you think the minimum wage is set above or below market value in the US?

99

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
I’ve had two jobs already, and I’ve always started at higher then minimum wage.

I was 15 and 16…

Hey orion,

Admittedly, this evidence is a bit anecdotal, but seeing this (a young teenager working/living in a Midwestern state who has never worked at minimum wage) do you think the minimum wage is set above or below market value in the US?
[/quote]

market value for what? do all jobs have the same market value?

100

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
John S. wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
Earn your keep.

No, poor people should not be entitled to free lunches, health care or housing.

They should make themselves useful, earn a living and buy the shit like everybody else.

It’s not so much that society fucks the poor as it is the poor fuck themselves. Repeatedly.

It is your attitude that fucks the poor

How is it his attitude that is fucking the poor? It’s hard work but anyone can bring themselves up. When my dad died my mom had 5 of us and she worked full time and went to college.

If someone drop out of high school they can go get there GED go to community college and either stop there and get a job that will pay good or they can transfer to a full time college and continue.

The poor can either use the opportunities that are being given to them like I am or they can continue to do what they are doing now.

I believe I have answered this question before, but there are more people looking for work than there are jobs. Supply and demand are in the favor of the people looking for employees. That drives down the price of labor. If you have a very industrious person that goes out and gets a job. That means a person that is less industrious has just lost a job
[/quote]

Where do you live that there are not enough jobs to meet the demand of the labor force? What you can’t drive 10-15 minutes to the next town to get a job? Guess what I know many people who do that.

It’s know ones fault but there fault for where they are at.