Schools Legislating?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]doogie wrote:
Where did you read that? Hooked on phonics has failed you again, Prof. First, if they were in high school at 19 or 20, they are probably hopeless. [/quote]

You are missing the point. According to you, the main issue is how ILLEGAL it is. That line gets damn blurry the older the kid gets. Technically, it is ILLEGAL for a 20 year old man who has 6 hours to go until his birthday to drink alcohol. You are the one pulling out specific definitions. I am simply showing you how retarded it is to only look at this in terms of legalities.

[quote]
The whole point is that when you get your hand slapped for little shit (like drinking underage), it teaches you there are consequences for your actions and hopefully keeps you from doing worse things like “grand theft auto or murder”. Are you just being an ass, or do you really think making kids miss a dance is hurting them? Do you really think that not being allowed to grind on Mary Lou to the docile sounds of the Backstreet Boys is worse than sending the message that there are no consequences for their actions? [/quote]

It is not the school’s business to parent a child outside of school. It is the parent’s job.

[quote]
What the fuck are you sniffing? Are those two sentences somehow related to this thread?[/quote]

You seem to think your little insults hold any weight at all. They don’t.

[quote]
Tell me, if these kids haven’t learned from their parents that underage drinking has consequences, where are they going to? Television? [/quote]

Who here did not even have the experience of being around other kids growing up who drank underage? Did this lead to a life of crime? Was it simply because you got caught?

[quote]

No, I’ve said probably 50 times that these kids need to learn there are consequences for their actions. How can you be so dumb as to argue against that? I didn’t say anything about only avoiding activities because they are illegal. [/quote]

The ones to teach them these consequences are their parents, not a high school unless they are on school property.

I am focused. Why not answer the question? Do you avoid certain activities just because you may get reprimanded through a legal process? Or could it possibly be that life itself taught you a few lessons on how society works? You are the one who tried to make a point as if people only learn through disciplinary action as far as “negatives” in society.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

It is not the school’s business to parent a child outside of school. It is the parent’s job.

The ones to teach them these consequences are their parents, not a high school unless they are on school property.

[/quote]

Do they hold school dances and football games anywhere besides school property? See, the school IS teaching the kids while they are on school property. They aren’t going into the kids’ homes and telling the parents to ground them or take away their car. They are teaching them that they can’t do illegal things and still play on school property.

Do you really think these kids (with shitty parents who think school dances are more important than morals) would be better off being allowed to dance?

63

The have the claimed right and the claimed responsiblity doogie but thats not the same thing as a right. Btw, it may be stupid of me, but do they have the right just because they say they do? this may work for common school custom but probalby not for more drastic actions like this.

Again, given the fact that most of the people in this thread are against the actions taken by the school that should yield to some idea of the ultimate outcome of these actions.

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[quote]GeorgeMontyIV wrote:
The have the claimed right and the claimed responsiblity doogie but thats not the same thing as a right. Btw, it may be stupid of me, but do they have the right just because they say they do? this may work for common school custom but probalby not for more drastic actions like this. [/quote]

What the hell is DRASTIC about some kids missing a damn dance or a couple of basketball games?

Drastic is a bunch of kids killing themselves driving home drunk from a party.

[quote]
Again, given the fact that most of the people in this thread are against the actions taken by the school that should yield to some idea of the ultimate outcome of these actions. [/quote]

I’m not sure if that is English or not, but I’m going to need a translation.

Schools’ ONLY purposes are to provide an education. The extra-curricular stuff is EXTRA. Why is that so hard to understand? Shit like this has gone to courts over and over. Guess what? The schools win over and over.

“Rockford administrators said they, too, cannot punish students for bad behavior away from school unless they are involved in extracurricular activities.”

65

[quote]doogie wrote:
GeorgeMontyIV wrote:
The have the claimed right and the claimed responsiblity doogie but thats not the same thing as a right. Btw, it may be stupid of me, but do they have the right just because they say they do? this may work for common school custom but probalby not for more drastic actions like this.

What the hell is DRASTIC about some kids missing a damn dance or a couple of basketball games?

Drastic is a bunch of kids killing themselves driving home drunk from a party.

Again, given the fact that most of the people in this thread are against the actions taken by the school that should yield to some idea of the ultimate outcome of these actions.

I’m not sure if that is English or not, but I’m going to need a translation.

Schools’ ONLY purposes are to provide an education. The extra-curricular stuff is EXTRA. Why is that so hard to understand? Shit like this has gone to courts over and over. Guess what? The schools win over and over.

“Rockford administrators said they, too, cannot punish students for bad behavior away from school unless they are involved in extracurricular activities.”
[/quote]

Whats drastic about this? The fact that only one school in the country is doing this. I would sue just for the principle of the thing - its just heavy handed treatment. Furthermore it messes up these kid’s permanent records because some kind of record is going to be made that they acted in a morally improper manner even though it was just drinking.
Alchohol is a initiation rite for teenagers college students and even adults drink too. Perhaps they are jumping the gun on things but its not the school’s place to punish unless it messes with the kid’s performance in the school or this happened on school property.

66

[quote]GeorgeMontyIV wrote:

Whats drastic about this? The fact that only one school in the country is doing this. [/quote]

Ok. You’re an idiot. Bow out of the thread now.

What in the hell makes you think this is the only school in the country doing this? This happens all over the country. It happened less than two months ago around here. Hell, even if it was only one school that had the conviction to say, “We’re going to teach our students that there are consequences for their actions” what would be the problem with that?

That would make you a shitty parent who was sending the message to your kids that daddy will bail them out of any trouble they get in.

What the fuck? Are you serious? Dumbass, there is no such thing as a “permanent record”. You watch too many cheesy sitcoms.

When it comes time for these punks to go to college, all they will send is a transcript and some letters of recommendation. Permanent record? Holy shit.

Look what alcohol has done to your ability to express yourself in a coherent fashion.

For the hundredth time, you are just dead wrong here. Again and again and again courts have held that schools can hold students out of extra-curricular activities for things like this. No student has a right to extra-curricular activities. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

67

doogie: Should the school be allowed to set standards that are not directly representative of the laws? That is, should the school be allowed to exclude students from extracurricular activities if they feel that a student has committed immoral or indecent acts, even if said acts are not against the law?

ProfX: At what point, or at what level of severity, should the schools be allowed to take illegal activity into account when dealing with students? How far is too far?

68

[quote]nephorm wrote:
doogie: Should the school be allowed to set standards that are not directly representative of the laws? That is, should the school be allowed to exclude students from extracurricular activities if they feel that a student has committed immoral or indecent acts, even if said acts are not against the law?

ProfX: At what point, or at what level of severity, should the schools be allowed to take illegal activity into account when dealing with students? How far is too far?[/quote]

Too far is when a crime is apparently so ILLEGAL that not one police authority was called and the school decided to take the place of both the law and the parental figure. If this was such a CRIME, why weren’t the legal authorities notified? Why wouldn’t the next step be to let the parents handle the situation? How does the school get to bypass both of these institutions and exact their own punishment for THE CRIME? This wasn’t on school grounds, therefore, it is not the school’s business. If a student gets into a car accident, how about we inform the school so this can become public school knowledge? What happened to PRIVACY?

69

Yeah, yeah, standard disclaimer.

The issues of illegality and crime is generally enforced in our society by a group of people known as the police.

At what point should the school simply let the police, police. Would that point be when the students are not under the care and control of the school?

This is all about some folks exercising some moral authority beyond their legitimate mandate, because they can do so. It’s endemic of society these days to impose our will, our morality, on those around us when we can.

Other than being stupid enough to post pictures, these students are doing nothing different than any other students throughout history.

I don’t care if these students are denied access to school events, but I don’t think this will actually teach them anything. Students already know to hide their drinking from their parents and other responsible parties, because they’ll get in trouble.

The actions of the school in this manner aren’t going to provide any further education in this… except to hide their misbehavior better.

Is that really the lesson you feel must be learned here? People must learn to hide their transgressions appropriately?

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[quote]nephorm wrote:
doogie: Should the school be allowed to set standards that are not directly representative of the laws? That is, should the school be allowed to exclude students from extracurricular activities if they feel that a student has committed immoral or indecent acts, even if said acts are not against the law?

[/quote]

Probably not. I can’t really think of any situation in which a school could pass a purely moral judgement on student behavior away from campus. A big part of schools’ responsibilities is to turn out good little citizens–which includes obeying laws.

71

[quote]Professor X wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think it’s funny that we now live in such authoritarian times that schools monitor student behavior, on their own time, so that they can be punished for breaking the rules.

Admittedly, the school does not have to let people participate in extra-curricular activities, but I really can’t see any good from having the government act as a nanny in this way.

I think they should retitle Orwell’s novel 2024 so that people will continue to read it. I think the fact the title is 1984 has people thinking it has no relevance…

Holy shit, I agree with vroom! What is the world coming to!

I think that if they looked closely at the school rules, they don’t apply to a student’s free time or life outside of school. Sounds like the school thinks it is taking the place of the parents. Maybe they should also monitor what the teachers do when they are not working as well?

Hehe, Makes me think of the part in Wierd Science when the biker gang member says “can we keep this between us…I’d hate to lose my teaching job”

I doubt this would last 2 minutes if suddenly what the teachers do outside of work is a constant reflection of the school. Why does this only apply to students?[/quote]

X - I don’t know where you are, but the teachers in my district are definitely held to a higher level of responsibility. God forbid if we got pulled for a DWI or caught with drugs or something like that. We’d be pulled out of the classroom the next day. Even when we do meet up after school, it’s out of district and it’s an unwritten rule that student names, etc. aren’t mentioned b/c it always gets back to the administrators.

72

[quote]vroom wrote:
criminals

Phew, that is a bit of a stretch.

Maybe we should throw them kids in prison for a couple years?[/quote]

You joke, but I’ve had kids in the past who’ve done hard time already, but b/c they’re under 21, we still have an obligation to educate them.

73

[quote]kroc30 wrote:
X - I don’t know where you are, but the teachers in my district are definitely held to a higher level of responsibility. God forbid if we got pulled for a DWI or caught with drugs or something like that. We’d be pulled out of the classroom the next day. Even when we do meet up after school, it’s out of district and it’s an unwritten rule that student names, etc. aren’t mentioned b/c it always gets back to the administrators.[/quote]

The blatant distinction being, you would need to be found guilty of these charges. These kids were not handed over to authorities. Even if they were, they are still the responsibility of the parents. To avoid the police in this instance would be equal to a teacher being fired because she worked nights at a strip club and this made the school “look poorly”. You blur the lines because the police were avoided completely. That means those crying about how illegal it is should be asking why this happened.

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They are also supposed to teach people to think… which is not always the same as blind obedience.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
kroc30 wrote:
X - I don’t know where you are, but the teachers in my district are definitely held to a higher level of responsibility. God forbid if we got pulled for a DWI or caught with drugs or something like that. We’d be pulled out of the classroom the next day. Even when we do meet up after school, it’s out of district and it’s an unwritten rule that student names, etc. aren’t mentioned b/c it always gets back to the administrators.

The blatant distinction being, you would need to be found guilty of these charges. These kids were not handed over to authorities. Even if they were, they are still the responsibility of the parents. To avoid the police in this instance would be equal to a teacher being fired because she worked nights at a strip club and this made the school “look poorly”. You blur the lines because the police were avoided completely. That means those crying about how illegal it is should be asking why this happened.
[/quote]

Actually, that is how it works, and I personally know teachers who have been disciplined or pulled out of the room due to the reasons you just described above.

76

[quote]doogie wrote:
vroom wrote:
Thank god, no one tried to pretend that I was too fucking special to face the consequeneces of my actions. Thank god, no one pretended that a school dance or a football game was more important than my character.

Surprisingly, many people, even when they don’t face authoritarian behavior, still learn how to conduct themselves responsibly…

Nobody is talking about students being “special” or any other make-believe baloney. The proper place for children to get this discipline is from their parents, not the school.

As for quoting the drinking issue, there was also a lot of talk in this thread about people smoking, perhaps on the weekend at the mall, and being kicked off of school teams.

You are still looking at this ass backwards. They aren’t being punished. They just arent’ being rewarded. Extra-curricular activities are priviledges that are earned.

[/quote]

That should be the parents decision to withhold from them, not the school. If the parents say, you got drunk so no soccer for you. Great, good for them. But that is not for the school to decide. They are not the parents.

77

[quote]Professor X wrote:

The blatant distinction being, you would need to be found guilty of these charges. These kids were not handed over to authorities. Even if they were, they are still the responsibility of the parents. To avoid the police in this instance would be equal to a teacher being fired because she worked nights at a strip club and this made the school “look poorly”. You blur the lines because the police were avoided completely. That means those crying about how illegal it is should be asking why this happened.
[/quote]

This is completely off. Most teacher contracts still have moral turpitude clauses. I could be fired for going to strip clubs. I certainly would be fired if I posted pictures on the internet of me holding a joint, even if charges were never filed.

78

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

That should be the parents decision to withhold from them, not the school. If the parents say, you got drunk so no soccer for you. Great, good for them. But that is not for the school to decide. They are not the parents.

[/quote]

When the parents start providing the soccer league and facilities, then it is the parents decision who gets to play. Until then, it is the schools’.

79

Here’s another example of this kind of thing happening. This one leads to better questions than the original post, because it is less of a slam dunk case for the school.

http://www.justicemag.com/daily/item/2023.html

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[quote]doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:

The blatant distinction being, you would need to be found guilty of these charges. These kids were not handed over to authorities. Even if they were, they are still the responsibility of the parents. To avoid the police in this instance would be equal to a teacher being fired because she worked nights at a strip club and this made the school “look poorly”. You blur the lines because the police were avoided completely. That means those crying about how illegal it is should be asking why this happened.

This is completely off. Most teacher contracts still have moral turpitude clauses. I could be fired for going to strip clubs. I certainly would be fired if I posted pictures on the internet of me holding a joint, even if charges were never filed.[/quote]

Well, then it sucks to be a teacher. 30,000 bucks a year and no strip clubs? I can see why you hate the students so much.