These kids were actually suspended from class:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Well, then it sucks to be a teacher. 30,000 bucks a year and no strip clubs? I can see why you hate the students so much.[/quote]
I love (not in a ZEB way) my students, and I want them to grow up knowing their are consequences for their actions.
Now that I’ve spent more time thinking about it, I think it could happen. Say a group of white kids throw a party with overtly racist themes and then post the pictures on the internet. I can see them getting suspended from sports/dances for that. I don’t know if that is right or wrong, but I think it would hold up because it causes a disruption in the learning environment.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Well, then it sucks to be a teacher. 30,000 bucks a year and no strip clubs? I can see why you hate the students so much.
I love (not in a ZEB way) my students, and I want them to grow up knowing their are consequences for their actions.[/quote]
It was sarcasm. I doubt there are too many people who understand what teachers deal with. I was raised by two of them. I am not in the dark about what is necessary. I just think you are taking up for the school for some strange reason as if you can’t see what others are saying.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Now that I’ve spent more time thinking about it, I think it could happen. Say a group of white kids throw a party with overtly racist themes and then post the pictures on the internet. I can see them getting suspended from sports/dances for that. I don’t know if that is right or wrong, but I think it would hold up because it causes a disruption in the learning environment.
[/quote]
What if pictures of two students of the same sex kissing found their way onto the web? Or students were found to be protesting issues that the school didn’t like? Or even… if a white girl were dating a black boy, and they were prohibited from coming to the school dance as a result?
All of these are potentially disruptive to the school environment… they’re kids, so everything is disruptive. I’m just not so sure it’s the role of the school to punish activity that occurs outside of the school, especially given that such punishments have no due-process elements.
I’m also concerned that this is how the school adminstration spends its time.
[quote]
doogie wrote:
Now that I’ve spent more time thinking about it, I think it could happen. Say a group of white kids throw a party with overtly racist themes and then post the pictures on the internet. I can see them getting suspended from sports/dances for that. I don’t know if that is right or wrong, but I think it would hold up because it causes a disruption in the learning environment.
nephorm wrote:
What if pictures of two students of the same sex kissing found their way onto the web? Or students were found to be protesting issues that the school didn’t like? Or even… if a white girl were dating a black boy, and they were prohibited from coming to the school dance as a result?
All of these are potentially disruptive to the school environment… they’re kids, so everything is disruptive. I’m just not so sure it’s the role of the school to punish activity that occurs outside of the school, especially given that such punishments have no due-process elements.
I’m also concerned that this is how the school adminstration spends its time.[/quote]
I didn’t say I agreed with non-illegal activity leading to suspensions, just that I could see it potentially happening in the example I gave.
Another example I just thought of would be a coach benching kids for staying out after curfew. Coach says be home by 9:00 pm the night before a game, then sees Johnny at Whataburger at 10:30 and boots him from the team. Coach makes the rules. Play by them or don’t.
I don’t believe any of the examples you gave would lead to a suspension in this day and age, and I certainly don’t think they would be upheld by a court.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Well, then it sucks to be a teacher. 30,000 bucks a year and no strip clubs? I can see why you hate the students so much.
I love (not in a ZEB way) my students, and I want them to grow up knowing their are consequences for their actions.
It was sarcasm. I doubt there are too many people who understand what teachers deal with. I was raised by two of them. I am not in the dark about what is necessary. I just think you are taking up for the school for some strange reason as if you can’t see what others are saying.[/quote]
It’s touchy for me. Two years in a row, about this time of the year, I caught a bunch of kids cheating. Good kids and bad kids. Boys and girls. The better students were “helping” the poorer students. Both times, part of their punishment was not going to the Valentine’s Day dance. 90% of the parents tore their kids up, and instilled the importance of honesty into them.
About 10% of the parent’s acted like I had taken their kids into the court yard and whipped them. I actually had a parent sit there in front of her kid and say, “It’s only 7th grade math. It’s not like it’s that important”. This is a lady who is the unmarried, unemployed mother of 4. Two sets of parent’s actually withdrew their kids from the school. Both of these kids were total punks–one an A student, one a C student.
In an ideal world, the school in the original article wouldn’t have to worry about suspending the kids from sports. In an ideal world, parents would parent. As soon as they saw the pictures, good parents would say, “You aren’t going to the dance and you aren’t playing sports for two weeks.” Unfortunately there are a lot of crappy parents in the world. The school didn’t undercut the parent’s authority, the parent’s chose not to exercise it.
Sounds to me like something they were doing on school property and on school time.
Enforce your rules… nobody is kvetching about this situation at all.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Two years in a row, about this time of the year, I caught a bunch of kids cheating.
Sounds to me like something they were doing on school property and on school time.
Enforce your rules… nobody is kvetching about this situation at all.[/quote]
WTF are you talking about? I never said anyone was kvetching about this situation at all. I was clearly pointing out why this is a touchy issue for me.
This whole arguement is about parents who are not willing to tell their kids, “Look, you knew the rules when you decided to go get drunk, now deal with the consequences.” If the parents had a problem with the school’s rules, they should have addressed it before their little darlings got caught breaking the law.
I see everyday that some parents are complete douchebags who think their child can do no wrong. There are shitty parents out there who don’t want to take responsibility for raising their kids, and they resent anyone else who mans up and takes the responsibility that they have shirked.
You’ve said some semi-intellegent things in this thread, such as “If you think school is going to do that [instill values] for your children, you deserve the shock you are in for down the road, if you haven’t taken care of this issue yourself.” See, the schools have to (unfortunately) take up the slack for these shitty parents who aren’t willing to teach their children right from wrong.
I even agree with this: “The proper place for children to get this discipline is from their parents, not the school.” Again, the problem is that too many parents DON’t provide discipline and schools have to take up the slack.
Then you say stupid stuff like, “This is all about some folks exercising some moral authority beyond their legitimate mandate, because they can do so. It’s endemic of society these days to impose our will, our morality, on those around us when we can.”
Schools do have the mandate (as proven by court case after court case after court case) to instill a decent understanding of civics into kids. Nothing in the original post involves morals. The school didn’t make a moral judgement on the kids’ activities. The kids broke the LAW. That isn’t a moral issue. It is a civics issue. Why is that hard to understand?
You also say stupid shit like:
“I don’t care if these students are denied access to school events, but I don’t think this will actually teach them anything. Students already know to hide their drinking from their parents and other responsible parties, because they’ll get in trouble.”
Prof X stupid statement of, “If you have parents getting upset at the action, what have the kids learned? Not a damn thing other than that this one school doesn’t like it but their parents really aren’t that pissed. They may be even more likely to do it again because there was no lesson learned” fits right in here.
What makes this different than any other form of punishment in your mind? Is it pointless to jail murderers because all it teaches them is to hide their crimes better? Should society just throw up it’s hands and say,“There’s nothing we can do”?
What is the difference in this and parents who stand by their kids who commit murder? If the parents still think their little darling shouldn’t go to jail, do the kids learn anything when they are sentenced to 20 years? Should society just say, “Well, their parents don’t think murder is so bad. Let’s let them go”? Hopefully the kids learn that their parents are fucked up and that society holds them to higher standards.
[quote]doogie wrote:
vroom wrote:
Two years in a row, about this time of the year, I caught a bunch of kids cheating.
Sounds to me like something they were doing on school property and on school time.
Enforce your rules… nobody is kvetching about this situation at all.
WTF are you talking about? I never said anyone was kvetching about this situation at all. I was clearly pointing out why this is a touchy issue for me.
This whole arguement is about parents who are not willing to tell their kids, “Look, you knew the rules when you decided to go get drunk, now deal with the consequences.” If the parents had a problem with the school’s rules, they should have addressed it before their little darlings got caught breaking the law.
I see everyday that some parents are complete douchebags who think their child can do no wrong. There are shitty parents out there who don’t want to take responsibility for raising their kids, and they resent anyone else who mans up and takes the responsibility that they have shirked.
You’ve said some semi-intellegent things in this thread, such as “If you think school is going to do that [instill values] for your children, you deserve the shock you are in for down the road, if you haven’t taken care of this issue yourself.” See, the schools have to (unfortunately) take up the slack for these shitty parents who aren’t willing to teach their children right from wrong.
I even agree with this: “The proper place for children to get this discipline is from their parents, not the school.” Again, the problem is that too many parents DON’t provide discipline and schools have to take up the slack.
Then you say stupid stuff like, “This is all about some folks exercising some moral authority beyond their legitimate mandate, because they can do so. It’s endemic of society these days to impose our will, our morality, on those around us when we can.”
Schools do have the mandate (as proven by court case after court case after court case) to instill a decent understanding of civics into kids. Nothing in the original post involves morals. The school didn’t make a moral judgement on the kids’ activities. The kids broke the LAW. That isn’t a moral issue. It is a civics issue. Why is that hard to understand?
You also say stupid shit like:
“I don’t care if these students are denied access to school events, but I don’t think this will actually teach them anything. Students already know to hide their drinking from their parents and other responsible parties, because they’ll get in trouble.”
Prof X stupid statement of, “If you have parents getting upset at the action, what have the kids learned? Not a damn thing other than that this one school doesn’t like it but their parents really aren’t that pissed. They may be even more likely to do it again because there was no lesson learned” fits right in here.
What makes this different than any other form of punishment in your mind? Is it pointless to jail murderers because all it teaches them is to hide their crimes better? Should society just throw up it’s hands and say,“There’s nothing we can do”?
What is the difference in this and parents who stand by their kids who commit murder? If the parents still think their little darling shouldn’t go to jail, do the kids learn anything when they are sentenced to 20 years? Should society just say, “Well, their parents don’t think murder is so bad. Let’s let them go”? Hopefully the kids learn that their parents are fucked up and that society holds them to higher standards.[/quote]
Doogie - I agree with you fully on this one. There are a ridiculous amount of parents nowadays who swear their kids do no wrong and then blame everyone else when the little brats get caught, fail, etc. It doesn’t matter what rules you have and how well you enforce them when parents don’t back you or the administration up.
I’m going through similar crap right now with two seniors I failed in required courses who either now have to repeat them second half, or not graduate and finish in summer school. But hey, why wouldn’t I pass people who were absent 30+ times, didn’t do an ounce of work and failed every test in spite of numerous phone calls home already. Yea, that’s definitely my fault.
[quote]kroc30 wrote:
I’m going through similar crap right now with two seniors I failed in required courses who either now have to repeat them second half, or not graduate and finish in summer school. But hey, why wouldn’t I pass people who were absent 30+ times, didn’t do an ounce of work and failed every test in spite of numerous phone calls home already. Yea, that’s definitely my fault. [/quote]
If they failed every test, why is anyone in their family worried that they have to repeat? Are they going to college? Why were they absent 30+ times? I honestly want to know. This is interesting to me.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
That should be the parents decision to withhold from them, not the school. If the parents say, you got drunk so no soccer for you. Great, good for them. But that is not for the school to decide. They are not the parents.
When the parents start providing the soccer league and facilities, then it is the parents decision who gets to play. Until then, it is the schools’. [/quote]
Then, it should also be the parents choice to not pay taxes to support the school, right?
As a teacher, I don’t feel it is my place to legislate someone else’s morality. The problem is that if no one teaches children something about right and wrong, they’ll simply become amoral half-humans (see TC’s article).
I lay a lot of blame for this at the door of the Democratic party. They raised taxes so high to fund their welfare state (1940’s through 1990’s) that both parents had to work, leaving young teens to fend for themselves. The results were the drugged-out sixties and all the mess that followed. Is it a coincidence that the Great Society Program destroyed most black families and left us with soaring pregnancies, drug use, and more illiteracy than we can imagine?
The kids are dumbasses for getting pictures of them partaking in an illegal act posted on the internet.
The school is well within its rights to withhold the privilege of an extracurricular activity.
If the school suspended them from class I would have problems with it.