Phew, that is a bit of a stretch.
Maybe we should throw them kids in prison for a couple years?
[quote]doogie wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think it’s funny that we now live in such authoritarian times that schools monitor student behavior, on their own time, so that they can be punished for breaking the rules.
Admittedly, the school does not have to let people participate in extra-curricular activities, but I really can’t see any good from having the government act as a nanny in this way.
I think they should retitle Orwell’s novel 2024 so that people will continue to read it. I think the fact the title is 1984 has people thinking it has no relevance…
Holy shit, I agree with vroom! What is the world coming to!
I think that if they looked closely at the school rules, they don’t apply to a student’s free time or life outside of school. Sounds like the school thinks it is taking the place of the parents. Maybe they should also monitor what the teachers do when they are not working as well?
Hehe, Makes me think of the part in Wierd Science when the biker gang member says “can we keep this between us…I’d hate to lose my teaching job”
I doubt this would last 2 minutes if suddenly what the teachers do outside of work is a constant reflection of the school. Why does this only apply to students?
WTF are ya’ll talking about?
Teachers get fired all of the time for ILLEGAL activity off school campus.
The difference bro, is that it is NOT the schools responsibility to punish students for illegal activity on their own time. It is the parents responsibility and the law. As an adult, you are responsible for your actions, so the school has a right to fire you for illegal activity outside work. But the legal responsibility of kids fall to the parents, not the school outside of school time.
I gaurantee you every court in the nation disagrees with you. The schools have no obligation to allow criminals to participate in extra-curricular activities. It’s not punishment, it’s standards.[/quote]
Come on dude, criminals? Some kid drinking while under age is a criminal?
So does that also mean that anyone who has been convicted of a crime in the past doesn’t deserve to participate in college extra-curricular activities either?
[quote]vroom wrote:
criminals
Phew, that is a bit of a stretch.
[/quote]
Do I need to point you to a dictionary?
Yep, point me to a dictionary.
I’d like to see it describe a teenager who smokes a cigarette as a criminal.
Regardless, I don’t think the school is the appropriate body to “convict” a student. If they are to be branded criminals then they deserve at least a trial to determine their guilt… because until that point they are legally innocent.
I don’t see how people get off on this authoritative bullshit.
[quote]doogie wrote:
vroom wrote:
criminals
Phew, that is a bit of a stretch.
Do I need to point you to a dictionary?
[/quote]
You never drank before you were 21? C’mon man. There is a difference between something like stealing a credit card and drinking underage. You are stretching it.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Yep, point me to a dictionary.
I’d like to see it describe a teenager who smokes a cigarette as a criminal.
Regardless, I don’t think the school is the appropriate body to “convict” a student. If they are to be branded criminals then they deserve at least a trial to determine their guilt… because until that point they are legally innocent.
I don’t see how people get off on this authoritative bullshit.[/quote]
Smoking cigarettes?
“EAST GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. - Fifteen to 20 students at East Grand Rapids High School face possible disciplinary action by the school after parents reported seeing Internet photos of them drinking alcohol at parties.”
crim?i?nal
n. One that has COMMITTED or been legally convicted of a crime
I don’t see how people can think kids don’t need to learn there are consequences for their actions. I don’t see how someone can act outraged that at least SOMEONE is trying to teach these kids right from wrong. What is worse for these kids? Ignoring their mistakes or holding them accountable? Isn’t it better that they figure it out when the consequences are just missing a dance or a football game, rather than when jail time or worse is involved?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
doogie wrote:
vroom wrote:
criminals
Phew, that is a bit of a stretch.
Do I need to point you to a dictionary?
You never drank before you were 21? C’mon man. There is a difference between something like stealing a credit card and drinking underage. You are stretching it.[/quote]
I did some stupid things when I was young (drinking wasn’t one of them), and thank god, someone held me accountable for my actions. Thank god, no one tried to pretend that I was too fucking special to face the consequeneces of my actions. Thank god, no one pretended that a school dance or a football game was more important than my character.
[quote]Thank god, no one tried to pretend that I was too fucking special to face the consequeneces of my actions. Thank god, no one pretended that a school dance or a football game was more important than my character.
[/quote]
Surprisingly, many people, even when they don’t face authoritarian behavior, still learn how to conduct themselves responsibly…
Nobody is talking about students being “special” or any other make-believe baloney. The proper place for children to get this discipline is from their parents, not the school.
As for quoting the drinking issue, there was also a lot of talk in this thread about people smoking, perhaps on the weekend at the mall, and being kicked off of school teams.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Thank god, no one tried to pretend that I was too fucking special to face the consequeneces of my actions. Thank god, no one pretended that a school dance or a football game was more important than my character.
Surprisingly, many people, even when they don’t face authoritarian behavior, still learn how to conduct themselves responsibly…
Nobody is talking about students being “special” or any other make-believe baloney. The proper place for children to get this discipline is from their parents, not the school.
As for quoting the drinking issue, there was also a lot of talk in this thread about people smoking, perhaps on the weekend at the mall, and being kicked off of school teams.[/quote]
I can’t believe anyone would relate underage drinking to “criminal acts that deserve prison time”. It makes me seriously wonder just how disconnected you are from your youth or those around you. I am glad no one followed me around as a kid to make sure I “knew about the consequences” every single time I screwed up. I would have never been able to actually grow up. Part of that process is also learning some of this shit has consequences OUTSIDE of parental or school discipline. Life is a great teacher in and of itself. How old would you have to be to forget this?
[quote]vroom wrote:
Thank god, no one tried to pretend that I was too fucking special to face the consequeneces of my actions. Thank god, no one pretended that a school dance or a football game was more important than my character.
Surprisingly, many people, even when they don’t face authoritarian behavior, still learn how to conduct themselves responsibly…
Nobody is talking about students being “special” or any other make-believe baloney. The proper place for children to get this discipline is from their parents, not the school.
As for quoting the drinking issue, there was also a lot of talk in this thread about people smoking, perhaps on the weekend at the mall, and being kicked off of school teams.[/quote]
You are still looking at this ass backwards. They aren’t being punished. They just arent’ being rewarded. Extra-curricular activities are priviledges that are earned.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I can’t believe anyone would relate underage drinking to “criminal acts that deserve prison time”. It makes me seriously wonder just how disconnected you are from your youth or those around you. I am glad no one followed me around as a kid to make sure I “knew about the consequences” every single time I screwed up. I would have never been able to actually grow up. Part of that process is also learning some of this shit has consequences OUTSIDE of parental or school discipline. Life is a great teacher in and of itself. How old would you have to be to forget this?[/quote]
What part of life teaches you not to be a criminal outside of school, your parents, or the criminal justice system?
Doogie,
This might be a surprise, but many people actually do learn from their mistakes – even if they aren’t caught and punished for them.
Serious criminals, as do youths that drink underage, already know what they are doing is wrong, I don’t see this form of school as nanny changing any of that.
I don’t have a problem with you being for it. I just don’t think it will actually accomplish anything.
[quote]lsu_nonleg wrote:
grew7 wrote:
The point of school is to make people into non-thinking, obedient consumer whores.
Right, which means we should fight every attempt to distribute vouchers or give people a choice… Wait, that’s not right.
[/quote]
YES.
Actually, no. I have no idea. I was just wondering if anyone would bite.
Anyway, I don’t really see the problem with kids drinking anyway. And shouldn’t parents be allowed to decide if their children are allowed to drink? My friends’ parents allow them wine on holidays. Mine would give it to me if I ever asked to try it. I see no problem with this.
[quote]grew7 wrote:
lsu_nonleg wrote:
grew7 wrote:
The point of school is to make people into non-thinking, obedient consumer whores.
Right, which means we should fight every attempt to distribute vouchers or give people a choice… Wait, that’s not right.
YES.
Actually, no. I have no idea. I was just wondering if anyone would bite.
Anyway, I don’t really see the problem with kids drinking anyway. And shouldn’t parents be allowed to decide if their children are allowed to drink? My friends’ parents allow them wine on holidays. Mine would give it to me if I ever asked to try it. I see no problem with this.[/quote]
Neither do some other countries. I personally think the act of banning it creates the desire for it.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I can’t believe anyone would relate underage drinking to “criminal acts that deserve prison time”. It makes me seriously wonder just how disconnected you are from your youth or those around you. I am glad no one followed me around as a kid to make sure I “knew about the consequences” every single time I screwed up. I would have never been able to actually grow up. Part of that process is also learning some of this shit has consequences OUTSIDE of parental or school discipline. Life is a great teacher in and of itself. How old would you have to be to forget this?
What part of life teaches you not to be a criminal outside of school, your parents, or the criminal justice system?
[/quote]
Someone drinking alcohol at the age of 19 or 20 is a criminal act on par with grand theft auto or murder? We aren’t the students in your classroom. I am sure most of the people in this thread are past the legal drinking age and I haven’t seen one log in yet who claims they never drank before the age of 21. Now, if you are past telling me what equals a “criminal” according to Webster, you might be able to allow the thought in your head that not every lesson you learned as far as how to act in society came directly as a disciplinary lesson from your parents or school. If you believe that the only reason people don’t do things in society is because those things are illegal, you are not viewing reality. I understand the morality high horse you would like to think you are on. Tell me, would you get flat out drunk tonight when you have work tomorrow? It isn’t illegal to do so. You won’t be breaking any laws. Why won’t you do it? Is it because of disciplinary action? Or is it because you know how it may cause you to perform tomorrow? How did you learn such a lesson without strict punishment?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
What part of life teaches you not to be a criminal outside of school, your parents, or the criminal justice system?
Someone drinking alcohol at the age of 19 or 20 is a criminal act on par with grand theft auto or murder? [/quote]
Where did you read that? Hooked on phonics has failed you again, Prof. First, if they were in high school at 19 or 20, they are probably hopeless. The whole point is that when you get your hand slapped for little shit (like drinking underage), it teaches you there are consequences for your actions and hopefully keeps you from doing worse things like “grand theft auto or murder”. Are you just being an ass, or do you really think making kids miss a dance is hurting them? Do you really think that not being allowed to grind on Mary Lou to the docile sounds of the Backstreet Boys is worse than sending the message that there are no consequences for their actions?
What the fuck are you sniffing? Are those two sentences somehow related to this thread?
Tell me, if these kids haven’t learned from their parents that underage drinking has consequences, where are they going to? Television?
No, I’ve said probably 50 times that these kids need to learn there are consequences for their actions. How can you be so dumb as to argue against that? I didn’t say anything about only avoiding activities because they are illegal.
I’m 100% sure that this discussion DOES revolve around criminal activity. Try to focus for one thread.
[quote]doogie wrote:
In most states, the concept of in loco parentis still holds for public schools. Schools act as surrogate parents.
Anyone with parenting skills shitty enough to allow them to say, “I suck so bad at being a parent that my kid was not only getting drunk, but was stupid enough to post pictures of it on the internet. I’m not going to teach my kid that there are consequences for his actions, and I don’t think the school should either” needs to have their ass kicked.[/quote]
Loco parentis. Right. The fact of the matter is that using the loco parentis concept is that parents drop them off to the goverment to act as the parent for about seven hours a day. Then the parents take control again.
You arent even making sense because once the parents pick them up, they have control over the students again.
I would say that drug use does violate this because the drugs would still be in their systems when they play sports or what have you. But alchohol?
[quote]GeorgeMontyIV wrote:
Loco parentis. Right. The fact of the matter is that using the loco parentis concept is that parents drop them off to the goverment to act as the parent for about seven hours a day. Then the parents take control again.
You arent even making sense because once the parents pick them up, they have control over the students again.
[/quote]
Uh, but then the parents drop them off at the SCHOOL for the dance or the football game. See how that works?
Correct. So they have the authority to punish the students as such. However their right, which i would encourage my kids to do if they were that age, is in question. Its in question because a party wont necesarrily interfere with a student’s abilty to function in school or even the next day in said extra curriculars.
[quote]GeorgeMontyIV wrote:
Correct. So they have the authority to punish the students as such. However their right, which i would encourage my kids to do if they were that age, is in question. Its in question because a party wont necesarrily interfere with a student’s abilty to function in school or even the next day in said extra curriculars.[/quote]
It has nothing to do with their ability to function in the extra-curricular activities. No one cares if Johnny can do the Humpty-Hump or not. The point is, the school has the right (and resposibility) to set the standards for students who are allowed to participate in extra-curricular activities. These students did not adhere to the standards the school has set, so they forfeited their right to participate. To argue otherwise is assinine.