School Shooting in Connecticut

Iron_Dwarf · December 18, 2012, 10:25pm

I abhor a police state. I also don’t want schools becoming prisons. We have a different sensibility here in the US, than in Israel (not that my initial knee-jerk thought was against what Jewbacca prescribed - on the contrary!).

As has been stated previously, we have a problem with how mental health issues are handled here. THAT, and ONLY that is the root of this problem - not the guns (and I’m a proud lefty!). And although it is THE problem, the causes are complex, numerous, and need cooperation by everyone in addressing.

Adding amendments, creating new laws, and increasing “security” are only band-aids placed on a continually festering wound we are enduring. We can’t eliminate all incidents, but we can better understand their causes as each new one unfolds.

Over 10 years ago there was a lot of rhetoric spouted off about how we need to behave so as to “not let the terrorists win”. Well by the way we’ve subsequently impinged our freedoms for the illusion of security has, in fact, allowed the terrorists to win.

We would be doing the same thing with this school shooting issue by taking drastic measures with new gun laws. We would be impinging our freedoms once again for the illusion of security… against our own civilian “terrorists” like the school shooter.

And again, like the new airport security measures we keep adding after every innovative terrorist tactic, we would be doing the same thing every time some sicko decides to attack a school in some new way. How long can we keep doing this?

Go to the root of the problem. Eliminate the cause of the wound, don’t keep making it “pretty” with a new band-aid.

BeefEater · December 18, 2012, 10:38pm

It seems that those that are afraid of a future power grab by the government are for some reason ok with putting armed police and soldiers into schools which would seem to me to be one helluva leveraging point for a tyrannical government.

system · December 18, 2012, 10:43pm

[quote]BeefEater wrote:
It seems that those that are afraid of a future power grab by the government are for some reason ok with putting armed police and soldiers into schools which would seem to me to be one helluva leveraging point for a tyrannical government.[/quote]

I’ve only notice people supporting the arming of civilians — e.g., principals, teachers, and coaches.

Who is pushing for armed soliders?

jjackkrash · December 18, 2012, 11:01pm

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]BeefEater wrote:
It seems that those that are afraid of a future power grab by the government are for some reason ok with putting armed police and soldiers into schools which would seem to me to be one helluva leveraging point for a tyrannical government.[/quote]

I’ve only notice people supporting the arming of civilians — e.g., principals, teachers, and coaches.

Who is pushing for armed soliders?[/quote]

Frankly, I’m not for “arming” or “pushing” anyone to carry, I’m just not for “prohibiting” principals, teachers, and coaches, etc. I’m also not for turning the schools into prisons or having soldiers in schools.

jjackkrash · December 18, 2012, 11:09pm

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
I abhor a police state. I also don’t want schools becoming prisons. We have a different sensibility here in the US, than in Israel (not that my initial knee-jerk thought was against what Jewbacca prescribed - on the contrary!).

As has been stated previously, we have a problem with how mental health issues are handled here. THAT, and ONLY that is the root of this problem - not the guns (and I’m a proud lefty!). And although it is THE problem, the causes are complex, numerous, and need cooperation by everyone in addressing.

Adding amendments, creating new laws, and increasing “security” are only band-aids placed on a continually festering wound we are enduring. We can’t eliminate all incidents, but we can better understand their causes as each new one unfolds.

Over 10 years ago there was a lot of rhetoric spouted off about how we need to behave so as to “not let the terrorists win”. Well by the way we’ve subsequently impinged our freedoms for the illusion of security has, in fact, allowed the terrorists to win.

We would be doing the same thing with this school shooting issue by taking drastic measures with new gun laws. We would be impinging our freedoms once again for the illusion of security… against our own civilian “terrorists” like the school shooter.

And again, like the new airport security measures we keep adding after every innovative terrorist tactic, we would be doing the same thing every time some sicko decides to attack a school in some new way. How long can we keep doing this?

Go to the root of the problem. Eliminate the cause of the wound, don’t keep making it “pretty” with a new band-aid.

[/quote]

I don’t disagree with this sentiment. I’m also not very optimistic about preventing these type of events in every case even if we are vigilant. We live in a big, complex society and someone who is motivated to commit extreme violence who is also willing to commit suicide in the process is pretty tough to stop.

BeefEater · December 18, 2012, 11:20pm

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]BeefEater wrote:
It seems that those that are afraid of a future power grab by the government are for some reason ok with putting armed police and soldiers into schools which would seem to me to be one helluva leveraging point for a tyrannical government.[/quote]

I’ve only notice people supporting the arming of civilians — e.g., principals, teachers, and coaches.

Who is pushing for armed soliders?[/quote]

I’m getting parts of other discussions mixed up with what has been discussed here. I thought that it had come up here as well. My mistake.

SteelyD · December 18, 2012, 11:38pm

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
I abhor a police state. I also don’t want schools becoming prisons. We have a different sensibility here in the US, than in Israel (not that my initial knee-jerk thought was against what Jewbacca prescribed - on the contrary!).

As has been stated previously, we have a problem with how mental health issues are handled here. THAT, and ONLY that is the root of this problem - not the guns (and I’m a proud lefty!). And although it is THE problem, the causes are complex, numerous, and need cooperation by everyone in addressing.

Adding amendments, creating new laws, and increasing “security” are only band-aids placed on a continually festering wound we are enduring. We can’t eliminate all incidents, but we can better understand their causes as each new one unfolds.

Over 10 years ago there was a lot of rhetoric spouted off about how we need to behave so as to “not let the terrorists win”. Well by the way we’ve subsequently impinged our freedoms for the illusion of security has, in fact, allowed the terrorists to win.

We would be doing the same thing with this school shooting issue by taking drastic measures with new gun laws. We would be impinging our freedoms once again for the illusion of security… against our own civilian “terrorists” like the school shooter.

And again, like the new airport security measures we keep adding after every innovative terrorist tactic, we would be doing the same thing every time some sicko decides to attack a school in some new way. How long can we keep doing this?

Go to the root of the problem. Eliminate the cause of the wound, don’t keep making it “pretty” with a new band-aid.

[/quote]

Iron Dwarf, you come give me a big hug right now.

Iron_Dwarf · December 19, 2012, 12:56am

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
I abhor a police state. I also don’t want schools becoming prisons. We have a different sensibility here in the US, than in Israel (not that my initial knee-jerk thought was against what Jewbacca prescribed - on the contrary!).

As has been stated previously, we have a problem with how mental health issues are handled here. THAT, and ONLY that is the root of this problem - not the guns (and I’m a proud lefty!). And although it is THE problem, the causes are complex, numerous, and need cooperation by everyone in addressing.

Adding amendments, creating new laws, and increasing “security” are only band-aids placed on a continually festering wound we are enduring. We can’t eliminate all incidents, but we can better understand their causes as each new one unfolds.

Over 10 years ago there was a lot of rhetoric spouted off about how we need to behave so as to “not let the terrorists win”. Well by the way we’ve subsequently impinged our freedoms for the illusion of security has, in fact, allowed the terrorists to win.

We would be doing the same thing with this school shooting issue by taking drastic measures with new gun laws. We would be impinging our freedoms once again for the illusion of security… against our own civilian “terrorists” like the school shooter.

And again, like the new airport security measures we keep adding after every innovative terrorist tactic, we would be doing the same thing every time some sicko decides to attack a school in some new way. How long can we keep doing this?

Go to the root of the problem. Eliminate the cause of the wound, don’t keep making it “pretty” with a new band-aid.

[/quote]

Iron Dwarf, you come give me a big hug right now.[/quote]

I would, but at my heaight, my head will end up at crot… well, you know.

lol

debraD · December 19, 2012, 1:31am

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
. . . . without sending our worst off to wars periodically they are left to fester.

[/quote]

Wow, so that’s what you think of soldiers, airmen, sailors, and marines who volunteer to defend our country?

Stay classy.

This shooter, btw, would never have passed the initial psych test and would have been drummed out in about a week.

[/quote]

Criminy. That is soooo not what I was getting at.

debraD · December 19, 2012, 1:34am

So if we are arming teachers–what happens when the first teacher goes nuts? Serious question.

StevenF · December 19, 2012, 1:56am

[quote]debraD wrote:
So if we are arming teachers–what happens when the first teacher goes nuts? Serious question. [/quote]

there’s nothing stopping them from going nuts now. Hypothetically, if another teacher is armed they could stop the massacre.

Oldman_Powers · December 19, 2012, 2:20am

[quote]debraD wrote:
So if we are arming teachers–what happens when the first teacher goes nuts? Serious question. [/quote]

I don’t care if the weapon is a baseball bat carried by a player, or a nail file carried in a purse. To take another life for personal satisfaction requires someone to be mentally ill to the core. It is not “temporary insanity”.

For those of us who have legally concealed carried for years. It is only there, God forbid, for life threatening self defense, and for the protection of anyone whose life is immediately threatened. Would you rather have me around during a life threatening situation, or wait 15 minutes for the police to arrive? I would give my life to have been a teacher able to stop the threat before any of those kids were killed.

debraD · December 19, 2012, 2:28am

[quote]Oldman Powers wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
So if we are arming teachers–what happens when the first teacher goes nuts? Serious question. [/quote]

I don’t care if the weapon is a baseball bat carried by a player, or a nail file carried in a purse. To take another life for personal satisfaction requires someone to be mentally ill to the core. It is not “temporary insanity”.

For those of us who have legally concealed carried for years. It is only there, God forbid, for life threatening self defense, and for the protection of anyone whose life is immediately threatened. Would you rather have me around during a life threatening situation, or wait 15 minutes for the police to arrive? I would give my life to have been a teacher able to stop the threat before any of those kids were killed.[/quote]

You’re pretty confident a teacher wouldn’t shoot a kid. Your kid even. Maybe it was a heated threatening situation or maybe not. You don’t have appear to be batshit insane to shoot someone. How can you feel so comfy about that?

Oldman_Powers · December 19, 2012, 2:49am

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]Oldman Powers wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
So if we are arming teachers–what happens when the first teacher goes nuts? Serious question. [/quote]

I don’t care if the weapon is a baseball bat carried by a player, or a nail file carried in a purse. To take another life for personal satisfaction requires someone to be mentally ill to the core. It is not “temporary insanity”.

For those of us who have legally concealed carried for years. It is only there, God forbid, for life threatening self defense, and for the protection of anyone whose life is immediately threatened. Would you rather have me around during a life threatening situation, or wait 15 minutes for the police to arrive? I would give my life to have been a teacher able to stop the threat before any of those kids were killed.[/quote]

You’re pretty confident a teacher wouldn’t shoot a kid. Your kid even. Maybe it was a heated threatening situation or maybe not. You don’t have appear to be batshit insane to shoot someone. How can you feel so comfy about that?[/quote]

I didn’t say that. I’m never comfortable when it comes to predicting human nature. Statistically concealed carry shootings outside of self defense are so low it’s negligible (less than 1%). In theory a teacher could pass the CC training, FBI background checks, have a clean record, and still be bat shit crazy. I think overall for the greater good, there would be far less major tragedies like we have been experiencing if teachers had the choice to be armed. Responsible adults who carry firearms are the good guys Deb. Don’t make us out to be the opposite.

debraD · December 19, 2012, 2:53am

[quote]Oldman Powers wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]Oldman Powers wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
So if we are arming teachers–what happens when the first teacher goes nuts? Serious question. [/quote]

I don’t care if the weapon is a baseball bat carried by a player, or a nail file carried in a purse. To take another life for personal satisfaction requires someone to be mentally ill to the core. It is not “temporary insanity”.

For those of us who have legally concealed carried for years. It is only there, God forbid, for life threatening self defense, and for the protection of anyone whose life is immediately threatened. Would you rather have me around during a life threatening situation, or wait 15 minutes for the police to arrive? I would give my life to have been a teacher able to stop the threat before any of those kids were killed.[/quote]

You’re pretty confident a teacher wouldn’t shoot a kid. Your kid even. Maybe it was a heated threatening situation or maybe not. You don’t have appear to be batshit insane to shoot someone. How can you feel so comfy about that?[/quote]

I didn’t say that. I’m never comfortable when it comes to predicting human nature. Statistically concealed carry shootings outside of self defense are so low it’s negligible (less than 1%). In theory a teacher could pass the CC training, background checks, have a clean record, and still be bat shit crazy. I think overall for the greater good, there would be far less major tragedies like we have been experiencing. Responsible adults who carry firearms are the good guys Deb. Don’t make us out to be the opposite.[/quote]

Well I didn’t make anybody out to be anything but since you brought it up you aren’t the good guys. You are just the guys. Whether you are good or not is to be determined and we won’t know that until it’s too late. But don’t mistake that for an argument for gun control or against ccw. It’s just an objective evaluation that being a ccw does nothing to inform us of your goodness or lack of.

But in addition to that, you can’t apply statistics to people who are self-appointed in the role of ccw (yourself) to a new group of people who will be placed in the role(teachers) especially if you’re going to assert that there is something implicitly good about folks who seek to be ccw.

Oldman_Powers · December 19, 2012, 3:06am

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]Oldman Powers wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]Oldman Powers wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
So if we are arming teachers–what happens when the first teacher goes nuts? Serious question. [/quote]

I don’t care if the weapon is a baseball bat carried by a player, or a nail file carried in a purse. To take another life for personal satisfaction requires someone to be mentally ill to the core. It is not “temporary insanity”.

For those of us who have legally concealed carried for years. It is only there, God forbid, for life threatening self defense, and for the protection of anyone whose life is immediately threatened. Would you rather have me around during a life threatening situation, or wait 15 minutes for the police to arrive? I would give my life to have been a teacher able to stop the threat before any of those kids were killed.[/quote]

You’re pretty confident a teacher wouldn’t shoot a kid. Your kid even. Maybe it was a heated threatening situation or maybe not. You don’t have appear to be batshit insane to shoot someone. How can you feel so comfy about that?[/quote]

I didn’t say that. I’m never comfortable when it comes to predicting human nature. Statistically concealed carry shootings outside of self defense are so low it’s negligible (less than 1%). In theory a teacher could pass the CC training, background checks, have a clean record, and still be bat shit crazy. I think overall for the greater good, there would be far less major tragedies like we have been experiencing. Responsible adults who carry firearms are the good guys Deb. Don’t make us out to be the opposite.[/quote]

Well I didn’t make anybody out to be anything but since you brought it up you aren’t the good guys. You are just the guys. Whether you are good or not is to be determined and we won’t know that until it’s too late. But don’t mistake that for an argument for gun control or against ccw. It’s just an objective evaluation that being a ccw does nothing to inform us of your goodness or lack of.

But in addition to that, you can’t apply statistics to people who are self-appointed in the role of ccw (yourself) to a new group of people who will be placed in the role(teachers) especially if you’re going to assert that there is something implicitly good about folks who seek to be ccw.
[/quote]

How many stories would you like me post where innocent lives were saved by ordinary citizens with CCW?
10, 100, 1000. The media isn’t too interested in promoting these, but I can dig them up.

Teachers shouldn’t be forced to be armed. That is ludicrous. But those that are mentally stable, have the desire, pass a federal background check, no felonies, and can pass the tests should be allowed.

jjackkrash · December 19, 2012, 3:09am

If a teacher wants to kill the kids all they need to do is Jim Jones the cool aide or any one of a hundred different ways, especially if they are motivated and willing themselves to commit suicide to do it. They certainly don’t need a gun to wreak havoc. If a teacher “goes crazy” the kids are pretty much fucked. So, serious question, what’s is your point Debra?

debraD · December 19, 2012, 3:10am