School Shooting in Connecticut

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

It’s equally intellectually lazy to think that the availability of such tools is not part of the problem.

In fact, it is probably the easiest aspect of this entire phenomenon to change. I don’t know what was going on in Lanza’s head, nor do I really care. [/quote]

Let’s talk about real laziness here:

You say we got to do something as long as it is something that does not require for you to be personally involved.

You clearly stated above that you personally DO NOT CARE about what was really going on in the boy’s head, which Cwill1973 rightly pointed out is the cause of the problem not the tool he used.

Then you advocate addressing the tool the boy used as “part of the problem”.

Is the gun “part of the problem” or is it a lazy “solution” that solves the problem of your conscience for being lazy spiritually, emotionally, intellectually and physically in taking a personal, hands on interest in those people in your community?

Lanza had neighbors. Had he been your neighbor, would you have had taken the time to stop playing with your pet and given this strange child some attention?

How lazy are we when it comes to getting to know one another and bothering to engage with those who seem “strange and aloof”?

How lazy is it to pay taxes so they have drugs, abortions, birth control, gun control provided by the state and we don’t have to get involved with the real problems in your community?

What do you think is your responsibility as a mature male in your community?

Surrender your guns or surrender yourself and some of your time to love your neighbors?

[/quote]

You’re barking up the wrong fucking tree when it comes to people who don’t do enough to help those in need, pal. I work on a very regular basis with people who are probably just like Lanza. I’m a school teacher, first of all. I spend a lot of time working with kids who come from broken homes and that sort of thing. If I had different degrees I would also be working as a counselor at the school. Since I am not qualified to work as one in the eyes of the state, I do what I can with those students on my own.

Although I haven’t done so recently, I have been a volunteer coach for literally dozens of sports teams for boys and girls ranging from the age of 5 up to 18.

I work at the Boys and Girls Club at least once a week and I spend a LOT of time working with recovering alcholics and drug addicts. I do volunteer work with the children my mother, who is a social worker, works with every time I visit her. I volunteer at the local soup kitchen about once a week, and during the holiday season I do so much more often. When I go to Santa Cruz next week for Christmas I’ll be working all day on the 24th and the 26th and the St. Francis Soup Kitchen there as well.

So don’t you fucking dare insinuate that I am doing nothing to alleviate this problem. I’m on the front lines of this kind of shit every single day. Are YOU?

When I said I don’t care what was going on in that kid’s head I meant that it didn’t matter to me because the damage was done. It’s too late for that murderer, who might be just as much a victim as anyone else involved in this. I was angry at the time but believe me, no one understands better than I do the power that paying attention to a kid like him can have. So get off your high fucking horse.

edit: in other words, when some kid comes into MY school armed to the teeth looking to take as many motherfuckers as he can, I’m the teacher he ISN’T going to come after, hopefully.

All boosting/bashing of the U.S. aside, I really don’t believe that rapid mass murder, school shootings etc are a problem that can be solved through legislation (i.e. gun control). This is a social issue, not a legal one. That said, until we can find a remedy for the social ills that are contributing to the rapid escalation of these incidents, I think we need to take some immediate concrete steps to mitigate the potential for harm. I honestly believe that having better security in schools would have a far more immediate and profound effect than an outright ban on all firearms (which I am by no means proposing).

People balk at the idea of armed guards in schools. The idea of turning our halls of learning into armed camps with checkpoints, patrols etc is understandably unpalatable. OK, what about maybe having a few small weapons lockers equipped with, say, a patrol carbine and/or a shotgun and possibly some form of body armour, strategically placed around the school and a small cadre of teachers/administrators who voluntarily undergo some ongoing tactical firearms training so they might be able to offer an immediate response in a worst case scenario. Otherwise the arms stay, out of sight and out of mind as much as possible. Said cadre could also possibly discreetly carry concealed, but long guns are vastly superior weapons to handguns so I would want the option, myself. These events happen very fast, and by the time police arrive the damage is usually done.

I know people will react very negatively to this suggestion. Admittedly, it sounds a little extreme at first glance. However, consider the amount of thought/effort/expense that goes into protecting students from fires. Now consider the number of students who have been harmed in fires recently when compared with the number who have been harmed/killed in shootings and it starts to sound a little less ridiculous, to me at least. A similar program could possibly be implemented in other public spaces.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like the idea at all and I don’t know if it’s the best solution and I am certain it would be too unpopular to get implemented, but I think it would make a difference. Over two thirds of rapid mass murders that get interrupted are broken up by civilians, mostly unarmed. Historically, these guys fold pretty quickly when someone finds the courage to push back. Of course, when the bullets start flying that person who is prepared to push becomes very rare. Providing access to some tools to answer the threat would make it more likely that someone would step up IMO.

It’s far from a perfect solution, but if someone showed up at my kid’s school and started shooting, I’d want someone to be able to shoot back.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]NikH wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Actually I was referring to the fact that governments have and will continue to kill its citizens on a scale thousands of times more than all the school shootings combined. If you think a tyrannical government cannot and will not exist again in England then you are clueless. Don’t worry though, as long as America is around you guys will be safe.

So you think these school shooters are sane? You’re an idiot if you don’t think there are people obsessed with guns.
[/quote]

Governments killing it’s own citizens? I am not from England but I can assure you a tyrannical government exists already in the US.

While we are at it you can tell me a few about the guys from US more:

  1. Why do you refer to yourself as Americans, I think it’s pure ignorism towards other nations in the actual America. I never heard Canadians say they are Americans evenif they are from North America.

  2. Why do you think we need or want you acting like a world police?

  3. You think you have a democracy when infact even Citibank calls US as plutonomy.
    The Citigroup Plutonomy Memos: Two bombshell documents that Citigroup's lawyers try to suppress, describing in detail the rule of the first 1% ~ Politicalgates

  4. In every speech that is held you guys say “im so proud to be american” or “america fuck yeah”. Just like they do in North Korea, praize the amazing nation.

  5. Why do you refer to the constitution as bible that cant be changed. As a godly object.

  6. Also the constitution ‘gun-laws’ were made in an era when troubled, criminal or poor europeans came to the US and they were fighting for their land, and now you dont need to do it anymore since you have legal agreements and cops and an army etc.

  7. btw. you blew up your own WTC towers HOW DID WORLD TRADE CENTER 7 FALL? - YouTube .[/quote]

And if you buy into that why should we trust them with protecting us?[/quote]

Excellent point. [/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

It’s funny. I rarely ever agree with you on these political issues, but I’ll tell you one thing man. When people start bashing Americans it’s amazing how quickly we all seem to band together as one cohesive unit. THAT is why America is such a great country. It’s like a family really. We can all sit here and argue and bicker amongst ourselves, but once an outsider attacks us that shit goes right out the window.

[/quote]

What person(s) wouldn’t band together to defend their own country? That is not unique to Americans at all. …just wanted to throw that out there.

[quote]Rico Suave wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]NikH wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Actually I was referring to the fact that governments have and will continue to kill its citizens on a scale thousands of times more than all the school shootings combined. If you think a tyrannical government cannot and will not exist again in England then you are clueless. Don’t worry though, as long as America is around you guys will be safe.

So you think these school shooters are sane? You’re an idiot if you don’t think there are people obsessed with guns.
[/quote]

Governments killing it’s own citizens? I am not from England but I can assure you a tyrannical government exists already in the US.

While we are at it you can tell me a few about the guys from US more:

  1. Why do you refer to yourself as Americans, I think it’s pure ignorism towards other nations in the actual America. I never heard Canadians say they are Americans evenif they are from North America.

  2. Why do you think we need or want you acting like a world police?

  3. You think you have a democracy when infact even Citibank calls US as plutonomy.
    The Citigroup Plutonomy Memos: Two bombshell documents that Citigroup's lawyers try to suppress, describing in detail the rule of the first 1% ~ Politicalgates

  4. In every speech that is held you guys say “im so proud to be american” or “america fuck yeah”. Just like they do in North Korea, praize the amazing nation.

  5. Why do you refer to the constitution as bible that cant be changed. As a godly object.

  6. Also the constitution ‘gun-laws’ were made in an era when troubled, criminal or poor europeans came to the US and they were fighting for their land, and now you dont need to do it anymore since you have legal agreements and cops and an army etc.

  7. btw. you blew up your own WTC towers HOW DID WORLD TRADE CENTER 7 FALL? - YouTube .[/quote]

And if you buy into that why should we trust them with protecting us?[/quote]

Excellent point. [/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

It’s funny. I rarely ever agree with you on these political issues, but I’ll tell you one thing man. When people start bashing Americans it’s amazing how quickly we all seem to band together as one cohesive unit. THAT is why America is such a great country. It’s like a family really. We can all sit here and argue and bicker amongst ourselves, but once an outsider attacks us that shit goes right out the window.

[/quote]

What person(s) wouldn’t band together to defend their own country? That is not unique to Americans at all. …just wanted to throw that out there.[/quote]

Sure, but what country appears to be as self-divided at times as this one?

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]NikH wrote:
I am not from England…[/quote]

Where are you from?[/quote]

Greenwich Village.[/quote]

Close, but upper east side.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I wonder if part of this has anything to do with a decreasing tendency towards having a strong nuclear and extended family tradition.[/quote]

This is one of the smartest things that’s been said in this thread so far. [/quote]

I agree completely.

And the community/neighborhood as an extended family.

Look at why America is so socially weak before you look anywhere else for solutions.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
…because vehicles ARE so dangerous when driven at high speeds I wouldn’t have a problem at all with putting governors on all vehicles that don’t allow them to go above 70-75 mph. After all, there is no right to drive above and beyond the speed limit anyways, so why provide people with cars that can go well beyond it and become exponentially more dangerous the further above it that they go.

[/quote]
[/quote]

So by your own logic since the average adult male only needs 50-60 grams of protein/day and since most government nutritionists believe eating meat can be hazardous to your health, you are ok with government meat eating restrictions?

I have a 5 year old and I’m sick to my stomach about this and my heart goes out to the victims. But I also know that it is not a coincidence that every time there’s a tragedy or national crisis the “solution” seems to be to shrink our freedoms and liberties. That’s when big government strikes because that’s when the people are most willing to throw their freedom down the toilet in exchange for a little more “security.”

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Why isn’t the discussion about the state of mental health treatment in the US rather than yet more ineffective gun control?

The Batman shooter was seeing a therapist who specialized in treating schizophrenia and Adam Lanza, the school shooter, was diagnosed with Asperger’s or some other spectrum disorder as well as a personality disorder according to his brother, Ryan.

The truth of the matter - and the reason this thread is up to 13 pages with no solution in sight - is because there is no one, over-arching solution that will prevent any one individual from massacring a group of people. If it’s not a gun, it will be a bomb. If not a bomb, then it will be an automobile driven into a crowd. If not an auto, then arson.

What no politician can say, and what the average citizen doesn’t want to believe, is that we are powerless to prevent something like this from happening again. Or, to be more accurate, these events can only be prevented by those in the shooter’s family and social circle who can identify potentially aberrant behavior, help the person seek treatment if appropriate, and then assure that guns, especially, aren’t accessible. [/quote]

I agree that this problem is not simply solved by gun control. I believe that it will involve many changes including an improvement to the way that mental health is treated, the media and people not placing so much attention to the person that commits these acts, and I also feel that gun control is an element.

The problem I have is that whenever the topic of gun control comes up, gun fanatics simply want to shove their fingers in their ears and pretend like it will have no effect whatsoever. If it was necessary to put violence restrictions on video games to alleviate the chances of this happening, I’d be all for it. But gun owners won’t even entertain the idea that it might help.

[quote]BeefEater wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Why isn’t the discussion about the state of mental health treatment in the US rather than yet more ineffective gun control?

The Batman shooter was seeing a therapist who specialized in treating schizophrenia and Adam Lanza, the school shooter, was diagnosed with Asperger’s or some other spectrum disorder as well as a personality disorder according to his brother, Ryan.

The truth of the matter - and the reason this thread is up to 13 pages with no solution in sight - is because there is no one, over-arching solution that will prevent any one individual from massacring a group of people. If it’s not a gun, it will be a bomb. If not a bomb, then it will be an automobile driven into a crowd. If not an auto, then arson.

What no politician can say, and what the average citizen doesn’t want to believe, is that we are powerless to prevent something like this from happening again. Or, to be more accurate, these events can only be prevented by those in the shooter’s family and social circle who can identify potentially aberrant behavior, help the person seek treatment if appropriate, and then assure that guns, especially, aren’t accessible. [/quote]

I agree that this problem is not simply solved by gun control. I believe that it will involve many changes including an improvement to the way that mental health is treated, the media and people not placing so much attention to the person that commits these acts, and I also feel that gun control is an element.

The problem I have is that whenever the topic of gun control comes up, gun fanatics simply want to shove their fingers in their ears and pretend like it will have no effect whatsoever. If it was necessary to put violence restrictions on video games to alleviate the chances of this happening, I’d be all for it. But gun owners won’t even entertain the idea that it might help.[/quote]

Would restrictions on violent video games infringe on any constitutional rights? It is already illegal for felons and many institutionalized persons to possess guns.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

You’re barking up the wrong fucking tree when it comes to people who don’t do enough to help those in need, pal. I work on a very regular basis with people who are probably just like Lanza. I’m a school teacher, first of all. I spend a lot of time working with kids who come from broken homes and that sort of thing. If I had different degrees I would also be working as a counselor at the school. Since I am not qualified to work as one in the eyes of the state, I do what I can with those students on my own.

Although I haven’t done so recently, I have been a volunteer coach for literally dozens of sports teams for boys and girls ranging from the age of 5 up to 18.

I work at the Boys and Girls Club at least once a week and I spend a LOT of time working with recovering alcholics and drug addicts. I do volunteer work with the children my mother, who is a social worker, works with every time I visit her. I volunteer at the local soup kitchen about once a week, and during the holiday season I do so much more often. When I go to Santa Cruz next week for Christmas I’ll be working all day on the 24th and the 26th and the St. Francis Soup Kitchen there as well.

So don’t you fucking dare insinuate that I am doing nothing to alleviate this problem. I’m on the front lines of this kind of shit every single day. Are YOU?

When I said I don’t care what was going on in that kid’s head I meant that it didn’t matter to me because the damage was done. It’s too late for that murderer, who might be just as much a victim as anyone else involved in this. I was angry at the time but believe me, no one understands better than I do the power that paying attention to a kid like him can have. So get off your high fucking horse.

edit: in other words, when some kid comes into MY school armed to the teeth looking to take as many motherfuckers as he can, I’m the teacher he ISN’T going to come after, hopefully.[/quote]

Yes I am.

Yet, somehow, I have not felt the need to come here writing a list of my acts of kindness nor preaching to take the freedom of others away on behalf of “MY” cause.

Feeling special much for all you community work?

There is also a very special kind of people who are helpers and who want to heal the world and who believe their love justifies sacrificing the freedom of others.

Many charities are known for their self-serving kind of “love”.

( Aren’t liberals and feminists all fighting for the greater good of society also? With their pure motives and the subtle castration of other peoples’ freedom in the name of their causes?)

High horse? I don’t believe I am the one sitting on one: After all I felt no need to write a list of “good deeds” to show how engaged in my community I am.

Nor do I feel self-righteous to blow my own trumpet that I would “give up the guns that give me an erection” to save the little children AND SO SHOULD EVERYBODY ELSE.

If you are already doing your part in your community, I commend you for that.

I am just somewhat inclined to believe you would have not taken offense had you yourself not been sitting on the High Horse of self-righteousness which is exactly the tone I have been picking up from your posts throughout this thread.

Otherwise, Mr Cooper, keep up the good work.

Matthew 6:3