Fat accumulation and loss is less about calorie intake and more about blood sugar/insulin control. High fat/moderate protein and low-carb (less than 30-60gs a day) is the way to go for fat loss, fuck calorie restriction.
[quote]Destor wrote:
Fat accumulation and loss is less about calorie intake and more about blood sugar/insulin control. High fat/moderate protein and low-carb (less than 30-60gs a day) is the way to go for fat loss, fuck calorie restriction. [/quote]
Wrong. Broscience. Unfounded. Apparently you trumped the entire law of thermodynamics through “insulin control”. Good one.
Apparently you lack an understanding of the second law of thermodynamics. Show me where exactly the law of thermodynamics indicates that a calorie excess is what causes fat accumulation.
It doesn’t, to quote Gary Taubes you are “misunderstanding the law of thermodynamics on an 8th grade science level.”
[quote]Destor wrote:
Apparently you lack an understanding of the second law of thermodynamics. Show me where exactly the law of thermodynamics indicates that a calorie excess is what causes fat accumulation.
It doesn’t, to quote Gary Taubes you are “misunderstanding the law of thermodynamics on an 8th grade science level.”[/quote]
Oh ok…so strawman argument? I didn’t say a calorie excess always causes fat accumulation did I? No…I said that in the presence of a true calorie deficit…fat will not be stored. Simple. I have said above that manipulating hormone levels DOES help towards overall fatloss…but in a TRUE deficit, weight will be lost. You are simply taking this to the other extreme…which is…abandon any notion of calorie restriction and just control carb intake… really dude? Okay. Do this: Make sure to track 100% so you know you are eating an EXCESS of 1000 calories a day. And do this with protein and fats only basically…keep carbs at w.e. you say is needed (50G a day seems fair). So eat atleast 1000 over main. everyday but limit carbs as you say. I’ll see you in a month.
Do I look fat to you, honestly? I just ate a bowl of capn crunch, 2 1/2 cups of oatmeal, mashed potatos, peas with onions, two slices of ezekiel bread, 5 egg whites and 1 whole egg and a piece of banana bread.
Carb source doesn’t matter when cutting. Go look into what Ken “Skip” Hall is doing with his clients and all the anecdotal supports this.
[quote]facko wrote:
[quote]Destor wrote:
Apparently you lack an understanding of the second law of thermodynamics. Show me where exactly the law of thermodynamics indicates that a calorie excess is what causes fat accumulation.
It doesn’t, to quote Gary Taubes you are “misunderstanding the law of thermodynamics on an 8th grade science level.”[/quote]
Oh ok…so strawman argument? I didn’t say a calorie excess always causes fat accumulation did I? No…I said that in the presence of a true calorie deficit…fat will not be stored. Simple. I have said above that manipulating hormone levels DOES help towards overall fatloss…but in a TRUE deficit, weight will be lost. You are simply taking this to the other extreme…which is…abandon any notion of calorie restriction and just control carb intake… really dude? Okay. Do this: Make sure to track 100% so you know you are eating an EXCESS of 1000 calories a day. And do this with protein and fats only basically…keep carbs at w.e. you say is needed (50G a day seems fair). So eat atleast 1000 over main. everyday but limit carbs as you say. I’ll see you in a month.[/quote]
1,000 daily extra calories of protein/fat might lead to some weight gain, but you can eat above maintenence (to a lesser degree) in a ketogenic diet without gaining bodyfat whereas the equivelant calories in a high-carb diet will lead to fat accumulation. I’ve seen it in practice, my girlfriend has lost over 40lbs eating a unrestricted ketogenic diet, and without really any exercise at all.
We eat shittons of calories from fat, pork belly is our go-to snack, and the bodyfat is flying off of her.
I’m very lean myself, not huge but I’ve only been training for 2 years so far. I can guarantee you that I can eat fat/protein until I can’t walk without losing much definition, but a few days of high-carb will result in immediately increased glycogen/water retention and any longer than that, bf accumulation.
The concept that insulin causes adipose tissue to store fat is well known. But to extend that to mean without insulin, adipose tissue will not store fat does not make sense. Forget changes in muscle fuel utilization because we are talking about adipose tissue fat balance.
Does a change in uptake outweigh the change in availability (increased consumption)?
Remember that the time dietary fat stays in the blood is a lot longer than glucose. Also remember that the liver repackages some of the fat and releases it back into the blood after all the insulin has gone. Sure this also increases the availability of fat uptake to muscles, but in un-exercised muscles this is saturable.
Maybe we could do a theoretical study and compare the change in fat oxidation to the change in fat uptake by adipose tissue between the two diets. Comparing the effects at-, below-, or above-maintenance could be an interesting experiment.
[quote]Destor wrote:
[quote]facko wrote:
[quote]Destor wrote:
Apparently you lack an understanding of the second law of thermodynamics. Show me where exactly the law of thermodynamics indicates that a calorie excess is what causes fat accumulation.
It doesn’t, to quote Gary Taubes you are “misunderstanding the law of thermodynamics on an 8th grade science level.”[/quote]
Oh ok…so strawman argument? I didn’t say a calorie excess always causes fat accumulation did I? No…I said that in the presence of a true calorie deficit…fat will not be stored. Simple. I have said above that manipulating hormone levels DOES help towards overall fatloss…but in a TRUE deficit, weight will be lost. You are simply taking this to the other extreme…which is…abandon any notion of calorie restriction and just control carb intake… really dude? Okay. Do this: Make sure to track 100% so you know you are eating an EXCESS of 1000 calories a day. And do this with protein and fats only basically…keep carbs at w.e. you say is needed (50G a day seems fair). So eat atleast 1000 over main. everyday but limit carbs as you say. I’ll see you in a month.[/quote]
1,000 daily extra calories of protein/fat might lead to some weight gain, but you can eat above maintenence (to a lesser degree) in a ketogenic diet without gaining bodyfat whereas the equivelant calories in a high-carb diet will lead to fat accumulation. I’ve seen it in practice, my girlfriend has lost over 40lbs eating a unrestricted ketogenic diet, and without really any exercise at all.
We eat shittons of calories from fat, pork belly is our go-to snack, and the bodyfat is flying off of her.
I’m very lean myself, not huge but I’ve only been training for 2 years so far. I can guarantee you that I can eat fat/protein until I can’t walk without losing much definition, but a few days of high-carb will result in immediately increased glycogen/water retention and any longer than that, bf accumulation. [/quote]
I don’t disagree that there is correlation between insulin release and the halting of burning fatty acids for fuel. I just know for me personally…I’m not exaggerating, everyday I eat till about 11:30 - midnight…right before I go to sleep. On training days…this includes lots of carbs man…Like two-three servings of oats, a serving of cereal, buckwheat pancakes, peanut butter sandwiches on ezekiel bread, toast w.e. etc. Right before bed dude… on many many training days, the last meal of the night for me at say 11:30pm is two pancakes, egg whites, toast and oatmeal…sometimes instead its a burrito bro. I’ve only gotten leaner eating this way.
[quote]Destor wrote:
I’m very lean myself, not huge but I’ve only been training for 2 years so far. I can guarantee you that I can eat fat/protein until I can’t walk without losing much definition, but a few days of high-carb will result in immediately increased glycogen/water retention and any longer than that, bf accumulation[/quote]
What kind of training? Crossfit? Long distance running?
[quote]facko wrote:
I don’t disagree that there is correlation between insulin release and the halting of burning fatty acids for fuel. I just know for me personally…I’m not exaggerating, everyday I eat till about 11:30 - midnight…right before I go to sleep. On training days…this includes lots of carbs man…Like two-three servings of oats, a serving of cereal, buckwheat pancakes, peanut butter sandwiches on ezekiel bread, toast w.e. etc. Right before bed dude… on many many training days, the last meal of the night for me at say 11:30pm is two pancakes, egg whites, toast and oatmeal…sometimes instead its a burrito bro. I’ve only gotten leaner eating this way.[/quote]
You likely partition energy differently from people who have a much easier time putting on weight with carbohydrates. My body is the same way, unless I absolutely force feed myself carbs my body won’t put on huge amounts of fat whereas my girlfriend can eat a fraction that I do yet put on weight.
There are theories as to why that may be, it’s possible that exposure to carbohydrates over time (generations) causes some kind of change in gene expression that leads to inherently different energy partitioning, and/or changes how the pancreas releases insulin in response to carbs.
This doesn’t change the basics of biology though as you know, insulin drives fat storage and a lack of insulin causes the release of it. It’s easily the #1 factor when it comes to fat loss and accumulation, it’s not the only factor but the others have a very small influence compared to Insulin.
It could probably be argued that any fat loss due to a caloric defecit is just a result of the fact that caloric restriction generally means you’re restricting carbs as well as protein/fat, but protein/fat generally aren’t going to cause fat accumulation so why restrict them?
[quote]tolismann wrote:
[quote]Destor wrote:
I’m very lean myself, not huge but I’ve only been training for 2 years so far. I can guarantee you that I can eat fat/protein until I can’t walk without losing much definition, but a few days of high-carb will result in immediately increased glycogen/water retention and any longer than that, bf accumulation[/quote]
What kind of training? Crossfit? Long distance running?
[/quote]
No, lifting and obviously I’m still pretty scrawny. Give it 3ish more years of solid training, I was 115lbs skinny-fat and lacking any muscle whatsoever when I started.