[quote]altimus wrote:
They’re just putting out the product that we as consumers demand. We love this stuff. While Williams is an idiot for knowingly saying all this in front of a documentarian, NO certainly wasn’t/isn’t the only team with such a reward system. Shit happens.[/quote]
No.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
While in no way do I agree with intentionally looking to injure players it would be ignorant to think that this is the only lockeroom where this kind of talk and tactics went on. Bounty issues aside intending to knock another player out of the game by targeting a pre-existing injury is not a new practice. Williams is the only smug prick who would say this kind of rhetoric with a documetary crew there to record the happenstance.
This is why Bill Bellichek is so tight lipped about injury reports…and why I believe it was Joe Gibbs (not sure but I think it was Gibbs) would submit eroneous injury reports, so opposing teams would not target pre-existing injuries.
Joe Gibbs is also being accused of handing out $100 bills if his players knocked out opposing QBs back in the 1980s, so obviously this is nothing new.[/quote]
I don’t know how people convolute this issue… If you are on the field, you are expect to be 100%. To test a player between the lines and between the whistles is not a problem.
This issue is really simple, the Saints we targeting players, to injure them, who were not even on the field, and after the whistle blew.
If you are going helmet to helmet on the QB, after he has gotten rid of the ball with the specific purpose to cause him injury, this is not ‘Just football’. That’s fucking assault.
I don’t know how many of you people have kids who play, but do you want this kind of crap going on when your kid is on the field? If your son is the QB and somebody is targeting him, specifically to cause him injury, are you going to maintain that’s just football?
This issue is not complicated.
It’s not about hard hits, or taking the guy with the ball out. It’s about late hits, illegal hits, that are designed to hurt and potentially end careers.
[quote]Samir wrote:
I don’t get why many former athletes think morality is different on and off the field?
This isn’t “let’s go punch’em in the mouth” or “let’s go destroy them” said innocently. If you can’t see how sinister and premeditated, cold, and scientific Gregg Williams is here, you’re an idiot. (Sorry).
Of course there’s a “code of honor” on the field, but it still operates within the overall framework of society. Imagine a football player pulls a gun on the field and goes nuts. He’s getting prosecuted just like anyone else. When a man steps on the field, he assumes the risk of injury as a NATURAL, UNINTENDED occurrence of a phyiscal game.
Adding intention it makes it a completely different story. TO me, this is worse than Belichik’s fetish for taping people. It’s intent to strip people of livelihood, shorten careers. If I were a player injured by the Saints in a demonstrably dirty hit, I’d be pressing charges.
Goodell is not a dumb ass, he sees this possibility and he’s trying to protect the NFL from being liable also for DOING NOTHING.
Why is targeting an ACL morally worse than a head? Hear any of the concussion discussion lately? Roger Goodell is shitting his pants about former players suing the NFL about negligence. That’s a major reason why Goodell is all over it.
Football players should be trying to protect themselves first - out of respect for each other. Don’t ask me. Ask Blake McJunkin
Bad sportsmanship is bad sportsmanship; has nothing to do with “pussification”.
[/quote]
All I am saying is people like Vilma or Su, better watch out. There may be some new kind of targeting going on…
I predict Vilma will be out for the season. I think Peyton may get fired.
I really don’t think Goodell is going to let Williams back on the sidelines again. I think he is done for good.
Yeah, he’ll just go to college, but he’ll never be on an NFL sideline again.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]altimus wrote:
They’re just putting out the product that we as consumers demand. We love this stuff. While Williams is an idiot for knowingly saying all this in front of a documentarian, NO certainly wasn’t/isn’t the only team with such a reward system. Shit happens.[/quote]
Who’s “we”? Most people on this board and everyone I’ve spoken to thinks Williams is a fucking punk. And I haven’t even bothered to talk to anyone who isn’t a football fan since I try to keep those sorts of people out of my life.
This isn’t good for the game at all and I can’t believe it isn’t more obvious to you and the others who downplay this. You want to know what “shit happens”? What happens is now every kid in high school who’s a star football AND a star baseball or basketball star is now going to think real long and hard about pursuing football rather than the other sport, especially if it’s an offensive player like a QB or a WR.
There’s a finite amount of top-level athletes in this country, and this is pretty much the only one playing football. More and more of these athletes will choose a sport other than the one that carries the explicit possibility that the opposing teams’ coaches are paying their players to fuck you up permanently and end your career. And football will suffer as a result of the loss of this talent. Baseball and basketball will flourish, but football won’t.
So if you want to see all the really gifted athletes in football, the Patrick Willis’, the Cam Newtons, Vicks, Fitzgeralds and Grahams of the game, migrate toward other sports from an earlier and earlier age, then keep on rooting for helmets to pop right off of guys’ shoulders with their heads still in them. Because that’s what you’ll eventually get.[/quote]
I love you.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
This isn’t good for the game at all and I can’t believe it isn’t more obvious to you and the others who downplay this. You want to know what “shit happens”? What happens is now every kid in high school who’s a star football AND a star baseball or basketball star is now going to think real long and hard about pursuing football rather than the other sport, especially if it’s an offensive player like a QB or a WR.[/quote]
I thought that’s already been going on for awhile. I mean even when i was younger looking into playing football seriously, i was told “look at the average career length of MLB/NBA vs. NFL players? Do you really think pursuing football is THAT good of an idea?”
Curious what a survey would be of NFL players asked if they could play in the NBA/ hit a curve ball vs. playing in the NFL, i bet the majority would not be in football.
I went on to play neither, so take my opinion as you will.
Rugby = Mans Game, and honestly it makes the NFL look like the EPL in terms of physical brutality
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Who’s “we”? Most people on this board and everyone I’ve spoken to thinks Williams is a fucking punk. And I haven’t even bothered to talk to anyone who isn’t a football fan since I try to keep those sorts of people out of my life.
This isn’t good for the game at all and I can’t believe it isn’t more obvious to you and the others who downplay this. You want to know what “shit happens”? What happens is now every kid in high school who’s a star football AND a star baseball or basketball star is now going to think real long and hard about pursuing football rather than the other sport, especially if it’s an offensive player like a QB or a WR.
There’s a finite amount of top-level athletes in this country, and this is pretty much the only one playing football. More and more of these athletes will choose a sport other than the one that carries the explicit possibility that the opposing teams’ coaches are paying their players to fuck you up permanently and end your career. And football will suffer as a result of the loss of this talent. Baseball and basketball will flourish, but football won’t.
So if you want to see all the really gifted athletes in football, the Patrick Willis’, the Cam Newtons, Vicks, Fitzgeralds and Grahams of the game, migrate toward other sports from an earlier and earlier age, then keep on rooting for helmets to pop right off of guys’ shoulders with their heads still in them. Because that’s what you’ll eventually get.[/quote]
I’m fairly sure football has already fallen back down in popularity at the ‘little league’ levels(I want to say it’s the lowest popularity of the big 3), and it’s not just the kids that have a say in it either; love it or not parents that see this going on are either pushing their children towards other sports, or outright telling them ‘no football.’
You really athletic and have great hand/eye coordination, here’s a tennis racquet…
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
While in no way do I agree with intentionally looking to injure players it would be ignorant to think that this is the only lockeroom where this kind of talk and tactics went on. Bounty issues aside intending to knock another player out of the game by targeting a pre-existing injury is not a new practice. Williams is the only smug prick who would say this kind of rhetoric with a documetary crew there to record the happenstance.
This is why Bill Bellichek is so tight lipped about injury reports…and why I believe it was Joe Gibbs (not sure but I think it was Gibbs) would submit eroneous injury reports, so opposing teams would not target pre-existing injuries.
Joe Gibbs is also being accused of handing out $100 bills if his players knocked out opposing QBs back in the 1980s, so obviously this is nothing new.[/quote]
I don’t know how people convolute this issue… If you are on the field, you are expect to be 100%. To test a player between the lines and between the whistles is not a problem.
This issue is really simple, the Saints we targeting players, to injure them, who were not even on the field, and after the whistle blew.
If you are going helmet to helmet on the QB, after he has gotten rid of the ball with the specific purpose to cause him injury, this is not ‘Just football’. That’s fucking assault.
I don’t know how many of you people have kids who play, but do you want this kind of crap going on when your kid is on the field? If your son is the QB and somebody is targeting him, specifically to cause him injury, are you going to maintain that’s just football?
This issue is not complicated.
It’s not about hard hits, or taking the guy with the ball out. It’s about late hits, illegal hits, that are designed to hurt and potentially end careers. [/quote]
I agree with you Pat, my post was not to rationalize the issue or make it less of an issue, I just feel this has been a practice for a very long time and this certainly shouldnt be shocking, albeit shocking to get it on tape.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
While in no way do I agree with intentionally looking to injure players it would be ignorant to think that this is the only lockeroom where this kind of talk and tactics went on. Bounty issues aside intending to knock another player out of the game by targeting a pre-existing injury is not a new practice. Williams is the only smug prick who would say this kind of rhetoric with a documetary crew there to record the happenstance.
This is why Bill Bellichek is so tight lipped about injury reports…and why I believe it was Joe Gibbs (not sure but I think it was Gibbs) would submit eroneous injury reports, so opposing teams would not target pre-existing injuries.
Joe Gibbs is also being accused of handing out $100 bills if his players knocked out opposing QBs back in the 1980s, so obviously this is nothing new.[/quote]
Nobody’s saying that this is an isolated incident at all. Of course this goes on elsewhere. The Niners and the Giants both admitted after the NFC Championship game that they were trying to rough up certain players (Manning, and the Giants admitted to also going after K. Williams because of his concussion history, including one just 3 weeks prior).
The fact that this is NOT an isolated incident is what pisses a lot of people off. It’s not even an isolated incident for the Saints, let alone other teams. Furthermore, you’re forgetting the context in which this has all unfolded. We know much, much more about concussions now than we did even 6 or 7 years ago. Williams isn’t oblivious to any of this. If this had happened, say, 20 years ago, I’d still think it was deplorable, but not to the extent it is now, given the current climate in the NFL.
But Williams was doing this today. He is fully aware of the consequences of the actions he was preaching, and he continued to preach them knowing full well that he was literally paying his players to scramble peoples’ brains AND after he had been warned NOT to do this on several occasions.
Like I said, I don’t think anyone here is naive enough to think that the Saints are the only ones who have ever established a bounty system of this sort. But I also don’t doubt that the Saints were the only who continued to do this, especially with a coach’s explicit encouragement, after the warnings were handed down by Goodell. And I don’t see how anyone could defend any aspect of Williams’ behavior due to the above factors, and certainly not after hearing the audio itself.[/quote]
Im certainly not defending it, Im just not shocked, actually it seems as if mostly players are defending it.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
This isn’t good for the game at all and I can’t believe it isn’t more obvious to you and the others who downplay this. You want to know what “shit happens”? What happens is now every kid in high school who’s a star football AND a star baseball or basketball star is now going to think real long and hard about pursuing football rather than the other sport, especially if it’s an offensive player like a QB or a WR.
There’s a finite amount of top-level athletes in this country, and this is pretty much the only one playing football. More and more of these athletes will choose a sport other than the one that carries the explicit possibility that the opposing teams’ coaches are paying their players to fuck you up permanently and end your career. And football will suffer as a result of the loss of this talent. Baseball and basketball will flourish, but football won’t.
So if you want to see all the really gifted athletes in football, the Patrick Willis’, the Cam Newtons, Vicks, Fitzgeralds and Grahams of the game, migrate toward other sports from an earlier and earlier age, then keep on rooting for helmets to pop right off of guys’ shoulders with their heads still in them. Because that’s what you’ll eventually get.[/quote]
Well if a defensive player cannot hit the offensive player, you are going to see players appear to be better athletes than they really are because there’s no opposition. We already have all these stupid rules and roughing the passer BS. You cannot tackle a player by grabbing his shoulder pads! That’s one of the biggest crocks of shit i’ve ever seen. Finger touches the QB’s helmet. OMG penalty. Apparently the defenders are better off trying to use a feather and tickle the players to the ground. Whoops forgot, no outside objects or whatever that rule is called.
Where does it end? Well it won’t. Because most americans are pussies that will avoid a little pain and anything that is physically difficult. Football is not a safe sport to play. That’s all there is to it. If parents want their boys to become little ballerinas then fine. I don’t want to see a little pussified twit on the football field unless he can stand up and play.
The physical nature of sports are what drew me in. I find it sad to see part of what makes REAL football great becoming demonized.(same with basketball as well, BRB the airflow from hand causes a foul) I loved to tackle hard, even more if it sent them sprawling across the grass. I loved how if you were running fast enough and hit hard enough, how you could use that momentum to bounce right back up after the hit. That is becoming a thing of the past. I absolutely loved blindsiding a linebacker or defensive back running full speed going downfield. That was fucking awesome. That physical nature of football is being assaulted and stripped from the game. Can’t hit the quarterback, can’t tackle a player by grabbing the shoulder pads and heaven help you if you knock someone on their ass when they weren’t prepared for it.
Bottom line is the game has changed. Some parts are for the good of the game, sure anyone can see that. Forcing them to wear helmets is a good one. But some of the recent ones were not for the good of the game of football. The Horse collar rule being one of them. This stuff with the saints is just football. Every single team goes after certain players of the other team.(If they are able to) Every single team also tries to be more physical with certain players of the other team, be it due to injury or even that players reputation. So what if Williams had his players target the other teams weaknesses. That is simply called strategy.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
While in no way do I agree with intentionally looking to injure players it would be ignorant to think that this is the only lockeroom where this kind of talk and tactics went on. Bounty issues aside intending to knock another player out of the game by targeting a pre-existing injury is not a new practice. Williams is the only smug prick who would say this kind of rhetoric with a documetary crew there to record the happenstance.
This is why Bill Bellichek is so tight lipped about injury reports…and why I believe it was Joe Gibbs (not sure but I think it was Gibbs) would submit eroneous injury reports, so opposing teams would not target pre-existing injuries.
Joe Gibbs is also being accused of handing out $100 bills if his players knocked out opposing QBs back in the 1980s, so obviously this is nothing new.[/quote]
Nobody’s saying that this is an isolated incident at all. Of course this goes on elsewhere. The Niners and the Giants both admitted after the NFC Championship game that they were trying to rough up certain players (Manning, and the Giants admitted to also going after K. Williams because of his concussion history, including one just 3 weeks prior).
The fact that this is NOT an isolated incident is what pisses a lot of people off. It’s not even an isolated incident for the Saints, let alone other teams. Furthermore, you’re forgetting the context in which this has all unfolded. We know much, much more about concussions now than we did even 6 or 7 years ago. Williams isn’t oblivious to any of this. If this had happened, say, 20 years ago, I’d still think it was deplorable, but not to the extent it is now, given the current climate in the NFL.
But Williams was doing this today. He is fully aware of the consequences of the actions he was preaching, and he continued to preach them knowing full well that he was literally paying his players to scramble peoples’ brains AND after he had been warned NOT to do this on several occasions.
Like I said, I don’t think anyone here is naive enough to think that the Saints are the only ones who have ever established a bounty system of this sort. But I also don’t doubt that the Saints were the only who continued to do this, especially with a coach’s explicit encouragement, after the warnings were handed down by Goodell. And I don’t see how anyone could defend any aspect of Williams’ behavior due to the above factors, and certainly not after hearing the audio itself.[/quote]
I think rhetorically “roughing someone up” which I spent every waking moment on the ice doing, is quite a lot different than, say, trapping an opponents ankle along the boards and try to wrench his knee out. I never once slashed, hooked, or threw elbows cause it is dirty, fuck what your daddy told you. But I still threw my body into anyone at every opportunity. Hence the name, body check.
Further, I liked baseball but a sport which involves personal responsibility for ones safety at all times is something that cannot be replaced. Always gunna be football.
Honestly,Jim Mora has been rolling in his grave for weeks now.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Phoenix44e wrote:
^ Yeah…I’m not sure either but I have a feeling that a lot of non-athletes are going to have a huge problem with this and a lot of athletes/former athletes aren’t going to find it to be not too big of a deal.
EDIT: Before I get my ass flamed for stating that I didn’t think it was a big deal, let it be known that I did not actually hear the audio part about taking out Crabtree’s acl. And yes regarding that I do agree that that is completely wrong. Personally that alone is banned worthy. You can’t purposely injur players especially targeting areas that could end carrers and handicap them.[/quote]
It’s the athletes and former athletes who actually played at some sort of high level in their sport that are against this. Those are the ones who have played at a high enough level where there really is something on the line other than the first round of drinks and have still operated with respect for their opponents.
It’s the wannabe weekend warriors exorcising the demons brought on by riding the bench for a DII school in Colorado or getting cut from the varsity football team or weren’t good enough after high school or played a year or two of juco ball that are the ones saying this shit is acceptable and part of sports. No athlete would say this is part of sports; only those unfamiliar with real competition would say things like that. Such as LouDog.[/quote]
Reads like you take this just a little too personal.
I’ve already stated that I was playing devil’s advocate. Maybe you should go get an e-hug. It will make you feel better.
[quote]Loudog75 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Phoenix44e wrote:
^ Yeah…I’m not sure either but I have a feeling that a lot of non-athletes are going to have a huge problem with this and a lot of athletes/former athletes aren’t going to find it to be not too big of a deal.
EDIT: Before I get my ass flamed for stating that I didn’t think it was a big deal, let it be known that I did not actually hear the audio part about taking out Crabtree’s acl. And yes regarding that I do agree that that is completely wrong. Personally that alone is banned worthy. You can’t purposely injur players especially targeting areas that could end carrers and handicap them.[/quote]
It’s the athletes and former athletes who actually played at some sort of high level in their sport that are against this. Those are the ones who have played at a high enough level where there really is something on the line other than the first round of drinks and have still operated with respect for their opponents.
It’s the wannabe weekend warriors exorcising the demons brought on by riding the bench for a DII school in Colorado or getting cut from the varsity football team or weren’t good enough after high school or played a year or two of juco ball that are the ones saying this shit is acceptable and part of sports. No athlete would say this is part of sports; only those unfamiliar with real competition would say things like that. Such as LouDog.[/quote]
Reads like you take this just a little too personal.
I’ve already stated that I was playing devil’s advocate. Maybe you should go get an e-hug. It will make you feel better.[/quote]
Taking it personal? This from the guy who took time out of his day to respond to a three-word sentence about himself? I laugh. Instead of an e-hug, why don’t you give me an e-tug on my halfway turgid cock? THAT would make me feel better.