Roots of Human Morality

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
941

From the little known book of T-Nation:

So let it be foreordained, that on April 5 2012 the evil atheist Groo will engage in a forum battle and troll war with our last true believer Tiribulus.

And let God harden the hearts of those predestined to burn in the fiery pits of hell so that the siren call of Hookers, Cocaine, vodka and bathtubs full of peach jello that the evil one espouses shall be their undoing.

Since everything is eventual so it shall be.

And so it shall be said that the retard shall have to edit his post for spelling. Amen

942

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seven million inmates in the US make a lot of stuff for very little money.
[/quote]

Though I am the least of the fans of the US penal system, can you explain how this is the same thing as theft?[/quote]

Slavery in disguise.[/quote]

And is slavery inherently wrong?[/quote]

Inherently wrong? No.
[/quote]

Okay, so I’m not seeing how we don’t accept something and yet accept it in a different form in the situation of inmates.

943

So instead of prison… maybe we should go back to Hammurabai’s eye for an eye? The prison system is imperfect (like just about every system). But to call it slavery is a stretch.

944

[quote]silee wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Perhaps I am broadening the definition of “selfish” incorrectly, but as I explained earlier in the thread I believe that all our actions are governed by emotion. Even a decision that appears rational has its roots in emotion.

That means that I believe all we do is to satisfy an emotion. And here too I use the word emotion in a broad sense. We can act on an emotion we don’t even know we have [anymore] which makes decisions based on that emotion appear rational.

And to satisfy an emotion is ultimately a selfish act.
[/quote]

ok I’ll entertain what you say. And I do think there might be something to the illusion of reasons that we give for doing things. But given your idea of emotion there is the emotion of love, now love has different meanings and are you going to reduce them all to concern with ones self? What about the love of ones parents or the love of a child or the love of an animal a pet? Usually these count as unselfish regards.

On the other hand if you want to argue that we are driven by things which we aren’t conscious of and the reasons we give are just delusions, then maybe there is something to that. Although even there i wouldn’t want to say this would be true in all cases.
[/quote]

If I play the reductionist card then caring for a child is an investment in the future [old age], but since I’m not a parent I have no experience in that field and will happily concede there’s more to loving your child then genetic impulses.

Love ultimately does center around how the other person makes you feel. When we’re in love that is undeniable, the force of being in love is simply too strong. If you’re lucky you’ll start to love the peculiarities of the person and you just love being around them.

But no matter how I look at it, the first and foremost reason for why you love a person is for selfish reasons. Now, I don’t see that as a negative. Love compells us to do better, not just for the other person, but again, also because it makes us feel good about ourselves.

That doesn’t mean we can’t sincerely care for others though.

945

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seven million inmates in the US make a lot of stuff for very little money.
[/quote]

Though I am the least of the fans of the US penal system, can you explain how this is the same thing as theft?[/quote]

Slavery in disguise.[/quote]

And is slavery inherently wrong?[/quote]

Inherently wrong? No.
[/quote]

Okay, so I’m not seeing how we don’t accept something and yet accept it in a different form in the situation of inmates.[/quote]

Because morality depends largely on context.

946

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
So instead of prison… maybe we should go back to Hammurabai’s eye for an eye? The prison system is imperfect (like just about every system). But to call it slavery is a stretch. [/quote]

It’s a form of slavery, in my opinion. There’s a rather unsettling willingness to incarcerate people and profit from it, as the system currently stands.

For-profit correctional facilities are an american invention, as far as I know. I don’t know of any other western country that has them.

947

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Perhaps I am broadening the definition of “selfish” incorrectly, but as I explained earlier in the thread I believe that all our actions are governed by emotion. Even a decision that appears rational has its roots in emotion.

That means that I believe all we do is to satisfy an emotion. And here too I use the word emotion in a broad sense. We can act on an emotion we don’t even know we have [anymore] which makes decisions based on that emotion appear rational.

And to satisfy an emotion is ultimately a selfish act.
[/quote]

Okay, demostrate how emotion is at the center of morality. Since we just seemingly agree that and pure goodness and pure evil is elusive to the human body and hence sit outside. Describe how emotion is the center of morality.

948

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Common sense isn’t always common.

You can pretty much boil down evil to one word. Selfishness.
Now that doesn’t mean every selfish act is evil, but every evil act has selfishness at it’s core. If you are willfully doing an action, that causes another conscious being harm, and doing it for yourself then that action is evil.
That’s the higher metaphysical layer to morality itself. An ultimately evil act is ultimately selfish, and ultimately good act is ultimately selfless. But selfless acts aren’t always good and selfish acts aren’t always evil. Another conscious being has to be effected one way or another to make it so.
[/quote]

Yes, alas common sense isn’t all too common.

You won’t be surprised to hear that I don’t think such a thing as a complete selfless act exists. If it does exist it’s rare.
[/quote]
No, I don’t think pure altruism is possible, but it’s something you shoot for, not attain. Like perfection. Viola, the metaphysics of morality. It’s like kamui said, there are no ‘good’ acts, only less evil ones.

Do you see no point in trying to live a moral live without an absolute authority?
[/quote]

I don’t see the point of introducing this strawman.

949

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seven million inmates in the US make a lot of stuff for very little money.
[/quote]

Though I am the least of the fans of the US penal system, can you explain how this is the same thing as theft?[/quote]

Slavery in disguise.[/quote]

And is slavery inherently wrong?[/quote]

Inherently wrong? No.
[/quote]

Okay, so I’m not seeing how we don’t accept something and yet accept it in a different form in the situation of inmates.[/quote]

Because morality depends largely on context.
[/quote]

Wait, you just said it depends on emotion. So if I feel slavery is a morally correct act, it must be, if I feel rape is a morally correct act, it is. If I feel killing someone is the right thing to do, it is.
So is it context or emotion. Your all over the map, which is indicative of a moving target. You’ll take anything but a metaphysical existence. I think your really reaching.
I’d like to see some proof of your notion that morality is based in emotion, when it’s anything but. Give me an argument. So far I have your word with no proof.

Morality is based on emotion because ______________.

950

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]silee wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Perhaps I am broadening the definition of “selfish” incorrectly, but as I explained earlier in the thread I believe that all our actions are governed by emotion. Even a decision that appears rational has its roots in emotion.

That means that I believe all we do is to satisfy an emotion. And here too I use the word emotion in a broad sense. We can act on an emotion we don’t even know we have [anymore] which makes decisions based on that emotion appear rational.

And to satisfy an emotion is ultimately a selfish act.
[/quote]

ok I’ll entertain what you say. And I do think there might be something to the illusion of reasons that we give for doing things. But given your idea of emotion there is the emotion of love, now love has different meanings and are you going to reduce them all to concern with ones self? What about the love of ones parents or the love of a child or the love of an animal a pet? Usually these count as unselfish regards.

On the other hand if you want to argue that we are driven by things which we aren’t conscious of and the reasons we give are just delusions, then maybe there is something to that. Although even there i wouldn’t want to say this would be true in all cases.
[/quote]

If I play the reductionist card then caring for a child is an investment in the future [old age], but since I’m not a parent I have no experience in that field and will happily concede there’s more to loving your child then genetic impulses.
[/quote]
If caring for your child is an investment, it’s the worst investment on the face of the earth. You care for your children because you love them, period. There is no other reason.

Real love is based on what you do, not how you feel. Marriage will cure every single notion you just asserted. You do shit because it’s right, not because it does you any favors. You described lust… That shit goes away. If thats ^^ what you think of love, you won’t be married long.

[quote]
But no matter how I look at it, the first and foremost reason for why you love a person is for selfish reasons. Now, I don’t see that as a negative. Love compells us to do better, not just for the other person, but again, also because it makes us feel good about ourselves.

That doesn’t mean we can’t sincerely care for others though.[/quote]

Oh brother. You just wait. You are in for a shock. Man, it’s nothing like you think it is. Once you get past the ‘Ooooo’ stage, the shit changes, big time. Love isn’t fun, it’s a struggle most of the time.

951

Groo you have not been paying attention as is evinced in most excruciating fashion by this:[quote]groo wrote:<<< You don’t really see taking his statements and saying well the logical extension of this is you either agree with me or you think child sex is ok is reframing the argument in a way that favors you? >>>[/quote]And this[quote]groo wrote:<<< And if someone pushes you on specific cases of human evil being predestined you fall back on scripture to try to avoid stating in any fashion that you do see these acts as manifestations of free will deserving punishment.[/quote]And what is this?:[quote]
groo wrote: From the little known book of T-Nation:

So let it be foreordained, that on April 5 2012 the evil atheist Groo will engage in a forum battle and troll war with our last true believer Tiribulus.

And let God harden the hearts of those predestined to burn in the fiery pits of hell so that the siren call of Hookers, Cocaine, vodka and bathtubs full of peach jello that the evil one espouses shall be their undoing.

Since everything is eventual so it shall be.

And so it shall be said that the retard shall have to edit his post for spelling. Amen
[/quote]A challenge? At long last?
BTW, I wouldn’t have used “espouses” there. “Bewails” would have been better if I were the speaking subject being referred to. However it’s not your style to call me “the evil one” so it almost sounds like your speaking of the devil. In which case “espouses” is REALLY off because the devil knows everybody is already undone. He uses the whole range of life and experience to help them stay that way, but he would never “espouse” that. He has no ego in the sense you or I do. He is most successful when most clandestine.He is the ultimate pragmatist. He just wants results and is more than happy to forego the credit.

952

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
So instead of prison… maybe we should go back to Hammurabai’s eye for an eye? The prison system is imperfect (like just about every system). But to call it slavery is a stretch. [/quote]

I wouldn’t say that calling it slavery is a stretch (of course you have to make a distinction between the different kinds of slavery).

Anyway, back to the thesis.

953

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Because morality depends largely on context.
[/quote]

Can you give me an example?

954

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
So instead of prison… maybe we should go back to Hammurabai’s eye for an eye? The prison system is imperfect (like just about every system). But to call it slavery is a stretch. [/quote]

It’s a form of slavery, in my opinion. There’s a rather unsettling willingness to incarcerate people and profit from it, as the system currently stands.

For-profit correctional facilities are an american invention, as far as I know. I don’t know of any other western country that has them.[/quote]

For profit penal systems are much older than America.

Fight another country, they lose, you make them slaves and they work for you until they pay their debt or forever.

955

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Perhaps I am broadening the definition of “selfish” incorrectly, but as I explained earlier in the thread I believe that all our actions are governed by emotion. Even a decision that appears rational has its roots in emotion.

That means that I believe all we do is to satisfy an emotion. And here too I use the word emotion in a broad sense. We can act on an emotion we don’t even know we have [anymore] which makes decisions based on that emotion appear rational.

And to satisfy an emotion is ultimately a selfish act.
[/quote]

Okay, demostrate how emotion is at the center of morality. Since we just seemingly agree that and pure goodness and pure evil is elusive to the human body and hence sit outside. Describe how emotion is the center of morality.
[/quote]

Emotion includes empathy and compassion. I use the word emotion to describe all brain- and mental states a human being can experience. I assume this as a given.

When humankind settled, built cities and formed societies after the end of the last ice age, the need for some kind of social structure to guide human interaction arose.

We are genetically predisposed to care for eachother as it increases our chances for survival. In a large enough setting, like a city, the succes and survival of the city depended on the cooperation of its inhabitants.

Laws were created, and a means of enforcing that law. As cities became more succesful, people required less time to meet their daily needs and had more time to ponder and improve their society.

[disclaimer]It is impossible for me to prove this conclusively, and I’m not presuming that this is true, but as far as I’m concerned its plausibility is far greater than morality having an absolute divine source.[/disclaimer]

Anyway, certain problems big cities have that exist now existed back then aswell: overcrowding, crime, poverty and so on. We needed something that allowed the masses to self-govern in a way that ensured the wellbeing and succes of the society.

Religion.

Religion in whatever form has always been very succesful at guiding people to live a certain way, so by incorporating our natural tendency to care for eachother in a set of ‘natural’ laws a society could function without a huge effort to enforce law.

Over time, and we are speaking roughly 10.000 years here, morality evolved into an ideal; an ideal that, over the generations, became ingrained into the psyche of humankind.

Simply because it has been succesful. Behaviour evolves too you see, and I don’t doubt the value of a moral system. I only doubt its origin.

956

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Do you see no point in trying to live a moral live without an absolute authority?
[/quote]

I don’t see the point of introducing this strawman.[/quote]

Perhaps it comes across that way, but it wasn’t my intention to introduce a strawman argument.

If all else is equal is there, in your view, a difference between two people who live according to the same moral concepts but one believes morality has a divine source, and the other does not?

Is there a qualitative difference between the two?

957

The only reason why we exist is to procreate. Procreation is, in its bare essence, the only real purpose I can see for living.

You’re not understanding me. I’m not talking about lust, and I’m not talking about doing the right thing because you made a vow [altough that is important].

[quote]
Oh brother. You just wait. You are in for a shock. Man, it’s nothing like you think it is. Once you get past the ‘Ooooo’ stage, the shit changes, big time. Love isn’t fun, it’s a struggle most of the time. [/quote]

What are you talking about here? Love? Do you think I’ve not experienced love, or that I don’t know what love is?

958

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Because morality depends largely on context.
[/quote]

Can you give me an example?[/quote]

Killing a human being is wrong.

Killing a human being is wrong, except in self-defense.

Killing a human being is wrong, except when you kill them with a government mandate.

Killing a human being is wrong, except when he’s found guilty for his crimes by his peers.

959

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
So instead of prison… maybe we should go back to Hammurabai’s eye for an eye? The prison system is imperfect (like just about every system). But to call it slavery is a stretch. [/quote]

It’s a form of slavery, in my opinion. There’s a rather unsettling willingness to incarcerate people and profit from it, as the system currently stands.

For-profit correctional facilities are an american invention, as far as I know. I don’t know of any other western country that has them.[/quote]

For profit penal systems are much older than America.

Fight another country, they lose, you make them slaves and they work for you until they pay their debt or forever.[/quote]

The for-profit prison system is a new concept based on old ideas, sure.

960

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< (of course you have to make a distinction between the different kinds of slavery). >>>[/quote]You’ve always been pretty good on this one Chris. All slavery is indeed not created equal.