[quote]Scorched Soul wrote:
it only shows that we THINK we have free will.[/quote]
…ergo.
[quote]Scorched Soul wrote:
I hope you don’t mind if I interject, but I have seen this argument given several times and I don’t think it really holds - people display varying morals because they dont just live by their morals, but are affected by their wants and desires, emotions and also are lead by those around them. I think morality probably IS obkective with respect to humans - we all have the same brain structure and perceive/conceive in the same way. very young children display a sense of fairness - I would say that is an argument for something underpinning our morality (evolution???). I think morality is not absolute, it wouldnt necessarily apply to to other species, and there can also be conflicting morals. Morality is GUIDE for how to live, not a law.[/quote]
If morality is objective it must be absolute.
I agree. What else do you find absolutely morally wrong?
[quote]Scorched Soul wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Scorched Soul wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Your reality exists because you exist. When you stop existing, your reality stops to exist.
All of [your] reality is processed, perceived and scaled by your brain, and you are nothing without your brain.
Your conclusion leads to an even bigger anomaly, god/uncaused cause. This is why your explanation does not explain anything with certainty.
Your confusion is similar to people who say, “oh well, evolution is not real because it’s just a theory.”
Laws of nature aren’t concepts, but our explanation of them are concepts. Math is a man made application of natural order. An application that works rather well, I grant you that.
If morality is a force of nature it must be objectively true for all of us. You can’t apply caveats to morality just like you can’t choose to not be affected by gravity on this planet.
Yet people apply caveats to morality every day, “this is wrong, but in that case it isn’t.”
You’ll disagree, naturally.[/quote]
I hope you don’t mind if I interject, but I have seen this argument given several times and I don’t think it really holds - people display varying morals because they dont just live by their morals, but are affected by their wants and desires, emotions and also are lead by those around them. I think morality probably IS obkective with respect to humans - we all have the same brain structure and perceive/conceive in the same way. very young children display a sense of fairness - I would say that is an argument for something underpinning our morality (evolution???). I think morality is not absolute, it wouldnt necessarily apply to to other species, and there can also be conflicting morals. Morality is GUIDE for how to live, not a law.[/quote]
One of the tenets of morality if freewill and the ability to choose otherwise.
Further, as I explained to Eph, relative morality breaks down at the extremes. For instance, Slavery, even when widely practiced and socially acceptable was still wrong. If morality were relative, then slavery would have been ok when it was practiced and a mere paradigm shift can make it ok once again.[/quote]
i dont think morality is relative, its objectively grounded in our instincts and emotions, which are consistent in that the same triggers will apply for each emotion across all humans, and we all share the same instincts.[/quote]
There are few things more random and arbitrary than emotion. Instinct is irrelevent in that it’s not a determinant of morality in anyway. Morality has aboslutes and you can see them at the extremes. If you want to find the absolutes of morality, then look there.
So, how would you guys feel about a revenge murder?
Like, say some dude, killed your whole family, do you have the moral high-ground and hence the right to enact justice in a lethal fashion?
What if this dude was mentally ill?
What if he had since truly repented his ways and was the nicest, most caring person you’d ever met?
What if you’re family provoked the attack through an involvement with organized crime?
I’m interested to see if the people who see morality as an absolute would agree on the answers to questions like these.
I want to know, morally speaking, what’s more worthwhile, justice? or forgiveness?
[quote]iVoodoo wrote:
So, how would you guys feel about a revenge murder?
Like, say some dude, killed your whole family, do you have the moral high-ground and hence the right to enact justice in a lethal fashion?
What if this dude was mentally ill?
What if he had since truly repented his ways and was the nicest, most caring person you’d ever met?
What if you’re family provoked the attack through an involvement with organized crime?
I’m interested to see if the people who see morality as an absolute would agree on the answers to questions like these.
I want to know, morally speaking, what’s more worthwhile, justice? or forgiveness?[/quote]
It doesn’t matter how you feel. A revenge murder would still be morally wrong to do, unless the murder was still a danger to you or the family. So it may feel good to revenge murder, you may feel justified, but it’s a morally wrong act.
It’s just more proof that morality has an absolute basis, not less.
[quote]iVoodoo wrote:
So, how would you guys feel about a revenge murder?
Like, say some dude, killed your whole family, do you have the moral high-ground and hence the right to enact justice in a lethal fashion?[/quote]
No.
[quote]
What if this dude was mentally ill?[/quote]
No.
[quote]
What if he had since truly repented his ways and was the nicest, most caring person you’d ever met?[/quote]
I don’t get it, I’m still saying no.
[quote]
What if you’re family provoked the attack through an involvement with organized crime?[/quote]
Still can’t have revenge.
[quote]I’m interested to see if the people who see morality as an absolute would agree on the answers to questions like these.
I want to know, morally speaking, what’s more worthwhile, justice? or forgiveness?[/quote]
What do you mean more worthwhile?
Is murder ok:
with a cat, while wearing a hat
by a door, that leads to a seashore
in a box, while smoking rocks
if your poor and own a lion that goes roar
if you live in a cage and you are a sage
if you’re a rower, and broken is your lawnmower
if you’re a clown and feeling down
if your name is John and you like to pawn
if you sail to the moon on a spoon
Murder has to okay in one of these situations, right? 
[quote]iVoodoo wrote:<<< I want to know, morally speaking, what’s more worthwhile, justice? or forgiveness?[/quote]God is the only one allowed to personally enact both. I am commanded as a Christian to forgive, love and pray for my enemies. The following is a part of an email I sent to a T-Nation member that I have had extensive correspondence with:[quote]Listen to Paul for a moment : 2nd Corinthians 11:23-29: “in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. 24Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. 26I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; 27I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak without my being weak? Who is led into sin without my intense concern?”
This is the same Paul who said earlier in that same book: 4:17 For our momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison. I know of a young Christian woman in California, 21 years old, pregnant with her first child whose husband was killed in a car jacking by a gang banger. There she is left with a baby and the wonderful life she had hoped to build with this by all accounts very loving man destroyed. She takes 10 grand of the insurance money and puts it on the murder’s commissary in prison so he’ll have some comfort there. She visits him and tells him that while what he did was a grave sin against God, she is guilty of crimes against that same God that would send her to the same hell he is going to if it weren’t for Jesus nailing her sins to that cross and taking away her guilt. He is abusive and scornful, but she keeps going to visit him while her and her church are praying for him. After several years of this he does break down and repent asking the Lord Jesus to save him. She tells him that it was worth the loss of her husband and his going to be with God sooner than she planned if it would be used by the Lord to save his murderer.
My pastor told us about a funeral he once attended where the murderer of the man’s son whose funeral it was showed up there. He had been paroled. The brothers and sisters and mother hated him for killing their sibling and son and thought it reprehensible that he dared show his face at the father’s funeral. One of the sons had to be physically restrained from attacking him. The man begged to be heard and pulled out a bag filled with letters from the now dead father forgiving him and telling him that he loved him and that he prayed for him that he would turn from his sin and embrace Christ Jesus as his righteousness before God so he could be forgiven and be with him in heaven. He also said in the letters that his family wouldn’t probably be able to let go until after he was gone and they had seen the change in this man. He begged their forgiveness and told them what a great man of God their husband and father was for putting aside his feelings so that the killer of his son could hear the gospel and be saved. They actually are friends now. He goes to their church and they have him over for family functions and such. (took a little while though)
Corrie Ten Boom, who wrote “The Hiding Place” later found herself in a church with the very Nazi prison guard who had tortured and gassed her family. He had forsaken his past, truly repented and surrendered to Jesus all of his sin. She forgave him and embraced him as a brother in Christ. Fanny Crosby, the great 19th century hymnist born blind was asked by a reporter at the end of her life how she could write hundreds of hymns extolling the goodness, grace and love of a God who had cursed her so that she should never be able to see. She replied immediately: “but you don’t understand. I am blessed indeed. The very first thing I will ever see is His face”. OH HALLELUJAH my dear friend. I feel like a spiritual pygmy every time I remember testimonies like this and there many many more.[/quote]Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord. Romans 12:19 (NASB)
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Is murder ok:
with a cat, while wearing a hat
by a door, that leads to a seashore
in a box, while smoking rocks
if your poor and own a lion that goes roar
if you live in a cage and you are a sage
if you’re a rower, and broken is your lawnmower
if you’re a clown and feeling down
if your name is John and you like to pawn
if you sail to the moon on a spoon
Murder has to okay in one of these situations, right?
[/quote]Come out of him thou unclean spirit of Seuss =]
So we’ve established that child rape is morally wrong, and the wilfull killing of another human being is morally wrong.
What else is morally wrong?
The only thing you’ve established Ephrem is that you have a penchant for bizarre digital art. It’s always entertaining to watch these godless heathens wail “BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!” in derisive scorn against people they so arrogantly deem not so progressive, enlightened and emotionally invulnerable as themselves. Then when pushed for an example of something they are willing to call “wrong” they give us what in the end amounts to “BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!”.
I though it would’ve been obvious that I meant, “established within this thread”.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
So we’ve established that child rape is morally wrong, and the wilfull killing of another human being is morally wrong.
What else is morally wrong?[/quote]
Slavery, prison rape, theft for personal gain alone, regular rape, etc… I don’t think we really need to list them all.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
So we’ve established that child rape is morally wrong, and the wilfull killing of another human being is morally wrong.
What else is morally wrong?[/quote]
Slavery, prison rape, theft for personal gain alone, regular rape, etc… I don’t think we really need to list them all.[/quote]
Does it matter to you that most of what you’ve mentioned exist, in a slightly different way, with our approval?
Seven million inmates in the US make a lot of stuff for very little money. Stealing food so you won’t starve. Rape, well, I can’t think of anything that meets our approval, but you get my drift.
Altough we agree on the extremes on this equasion, the rest of the morality issue is often a matter of semantics and context.
In other words, there’s often a fine line between what is considered immoral and what is acceptable.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seven million inmates in the US make a lot of stuff for very little money.
[/quote]
Though I am the least of the fans of the US penal system, can you explain how this is the same thing as theft?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
So we’ve established that child rape is morally wrong, and the wilfull killing of another human being is morally wrong.
What else is morally wrong?[/quote]
Slavery, prison rape, theft for personal gain alone, regular rape, etc… I don’t think we really need to list them all.[/quote]
Does it matter to you that most of what you’ve mentioned exist, in a slightly different way, with our approval?
Seven million inmates in the US make a lot of stuff for very little money. Stealing food so you won’t starve. Rape, well, I can’t think of anything that meets our approval, but you get my drift.
Altough we agree on the extremes on this equasion, the rest of the morality issue is often a matter of semantics and context.
In other words, there’s often a fine line between what is considered immoral and what is acceptable.
[/quote]
Which is why I was very specific about the kind of theft. Rape is a slam dunk as there is never a case where somebody would have to do it.
I didn’t say the context of the situation didn’t matter. Of course it matters. The core issue of the ‘evil act’ is the intent. If you are stealing for personal gain, pleasure or for another selfish reason, then the act is evil. If you are stealing for survival of yourself or others it is not an evil act. If you kill to protect yourself or others, then it’s not an evil act. If you are killing inflict pain, get revenge, or any other selfish reason, then it’s an evil act…
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seven million inmates in the US make a lot of stuff for very little money.
[/quote]
Though I am the least of the fans of the US penal system, can you explain how this is the same thing as theft?[/quote]
Slavery in disguise.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Does it matter to you that most of what you’ve mentioned exist, in a slightly different way, with our approval?
Seven million inmates in the US make a lot of stuff for very little money. Stealing food so you won’t starve. Rape, well, I can’t think of anything that meets our approval, but you get my drift.
Altough we agree on the extremes on this equasion, the rest of the morality issue is often a matter of semantics and context.
In other words, there’s often a fine line between what is considered immoral and what is acceptable.
[/quote]
Which is why I was very specific about the kind of theft. Rape is a slam dunk as there is never a case where somebody would have to do it.
I didn’t say the context of the situation didn’t matter. Of course it matters. The core issue of the ‘evil act’ is the intent. If you are stealing for personal gain, pleasure or for another selfish reason, then the act is evil. If you are stealing for survival of yourself or others it is not an evil act. If you kill to protect yourself or others, then it’s not an evil act. If you are killing inflict pain, get revenge, or any other selfish reason, then it’s an evil act…[/quote]
I can certainly see the thin line and why it’s there, but I simply fail to attribute it to anything other than common sense. That we don’t always act with common sense is another topic alltogether.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seven million inmates in the US make a lot of stuff for very little money.
[/quote]
Though I am the least of the fans of the US penal system, can you explain how this is the same thing as theft?[/quote]
Slavery in disguise.[/quote]
And is slavery inherently wrong?