[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< God doesn’t love me per se, but his love is earned by choosing him as my lord and saviour. >>>[/quote]He has to love you first Ephrem. 1st John 4:10 (whole chapter actually)[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< Despite him making me as I am, incapable of religious beliefs, >>>[/quote]You’re capable of all kinds of religious beliefs. I see them all the time. But not saving faith in Christ. [quote]ephrem wrote:<<< because he’s granted me free will to choose him>>>[/quote]He’s commanded you to choose Him. Father Adam sold you into bondage to sin. You freely choose it all time.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< in spite of that the punishment for not choosing him is to suffer for eternity in hell. >>>[/quote]Eternity in hell is for damnable crimes that you commit while every second breathing His air and denying Him your Worship. Father Adam sold you into bondage to sin Ephrem. Consequently you freely choose it all time. No, I don’t understand exactly how that works. I do however know for sure that if “you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) And you will be “sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13), never to be lost again (John 10:28).
You would also tell everybody here with no thought of what they might think. Because you would be a “new creature”(2 Corinthians 5:17)“created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that you would walk in them”(Ephesians 2:10). You would not be ashamed of the gospel, seeing it as the power of God unto salvation for all them that believe(Romans 1:16). You will have passed from the death I’m always telling you about to the life I’m always telling you about(John 5:24, 1 John 3:14).
That’s my hope and prayer for you Ephrem. Always will be. People prayed for that for me. I am happy to give back by doing so for you.
[/quote]
Do you think there are some things so totally evil that they are unforgiveable?
Do you think a system that treats all sinners the same no matter what they have done just?
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< God doesn’t love me per se, but his love is earned by choosing him as my lord and saviour. >>>[/quote]He has to love you first Ephrem. 1st John 4:10 (whole chapter actually)[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< Despite him making me as I am, incapable of religious beliefs, >>>[/quote]You’re capable of all kinds of religious beliefs. I see them all the time. But not saving faith in Christ. [quote]ephrem wrote:<<< because he’s granted me free will to choose him>>>[/quote]He’s commanded you to choose Him. Father Adam sold you into bondage to sin. You freely choose it all time.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< in spite of that the punishment for not choosing him is to suffer for eternity in hell. >>>[/quote]Eternity in hell is for damnable crimes that you commit while every second breathing His air and denying Him your Worship. Father Adam sold you into bondage to sin Ephrem. Consequently you freely choose it all time. No, I don’t understand exactly how that works. I do however know for sure that if “you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) And you will be “sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13), never to be lost again (John 10:28).
You would also tell everybody here with no thought of what they might think. Because you would be a “new creature”(2 Corinthians 5:17)“created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that you would walk in them”(Ephesians 2:10). You would not be ashamed of the gospel, seeing it as the power of God unto salvation for all them that believe(Romans 1:16). You will have passed from the death I’m always telling you about to the life I’m always telling you about(John 5:24, 1 John 3:14).
That’s my hope and prayer for you Ephrem. Always will be. People prayed for that for me. I am happy to give back by doing so for you.
[/quote]
Do you think there are some things so totally evil that they are unforgiveable?
Do you think a system that treats all sinners the same no matter what they have done just?
[/quote]No and yes.
No, there is NO sin more powerful than the blood and resurrection of my glorious Lord. Inconceivable. Yes, all sinners are equally damned, but there ARE levels of punishment in their damnation. It’s nice to see you around again Groo. I have quoted you more times than I can count. You were a very worthy contributor to these discussions.
Edited for clarity
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< God doesn’t love me per se, but his love is earned by choosing him as my lord and saviour. >>>[/quote]He has to love you first Ephrem. 1st John 4:10 (whole chapter actually)[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< Despite him making me as I am, incapable of religious beliefs, >>>[/quote]You’re capable of all kinds of religious beliefs. I see them all the time. But not saving faith in Christ. [quote]ephrem wrote:<<< because he’s granted me free will to choose him>>>[/quote]He’s commanded you to choose Him. Father Adam sold you into bondage to sin. You freely choose it all time.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< in spite of that the punishment for not choosing him is to suffer for eternity in hell. >>>[/quote]Eternity in hell is for damnable crimes that you commit while every second breathing His air and denying Him your Worship. Father Adam sold you into bondage to sin Ephrem. Consequently you freely choose it all time. No, I don’t understand exactly how that works. I do however know for sure that if “you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) And you will be “sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13), never to be lost again (John 10:28).
You would also tell everybody here with no thought of what they might think. Because you would be a “new creature”(2 Corinthians 5:17)“created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that you would walk in them”(Ephesians 2:10). You would not be ashamed of the gospel, seeing it as the power of God unto salvation for all them that believe(Romans 1:16). You will have passed from the death I’m always telling you about to the life I’m always telling you about(John 5:24, 1 John 3:14).
That’s my hope and prayer for you Ephrem. Always will be. People prayed for that for me. I am happy to give back by doing so for you.
[/quote]
Do you think there are some things so totally evil that they are unforgiveable?
Do you think a system that treats all sinners the same no matter what they have done just?
[/quote]No and yes.
No, there is NO sin more powerful than the blood and resurrection of my glorious Lord. Inconceivable. Yes, all sinners are equally damned, but there ARE levels of punishment in their damnation. It’s nice to see you around again Groo. I have quoted you more times than I can count. You were a very worthy contributor to your discussions with me.[/quote]
I simply can’t be onboard with a system that allows certain things to be forgiveable.
Not a believer but assuming God were real, even with free will some things that come to pass are so horrible that He and those that committed the actions should never be forgiven.
But I admit I am definitely an imperfect judgemental guy.
I think morality is largely a first world conceit though anyway myself.
If there is truly some ineffable purpose in suffering coming about through the action of free will certainly some things should be punished ever so much more severely than a simple lack of faith.
And there are some evils that come about mostly through nature where there is a lot of free will being expended to stop them where it just doesn’t work out. Perhaps a bit more miracle would be nice.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< God doesn’t love me per se, but his love is earned by choosing him as my lord and saviour. >>>[/quote]He has to love you first Ephrem. 1st John 4:10 (whole chapter actually)[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< Despite him making me as I am, incapable of religious beliefs, >>>[/quote]You’re capable of all kinds of religious beliefs. I see them all the time. But not saving faith in Christ. [quote]ephrem wrote:<<< because he’s granted me free will to choose him>>>[/quote]He’s commanded you to choose Him. Father Adam sold you into bondage to sin. You freely choose it all time.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< in spite of that the punishment for not choosing him is to suffer for eternity in hell. >>>[/quote]Eternity in hell is for damnable crimes that you commit while every second breathing His air and denying Him your Worship. Father Adam sold you into bondage to sin Ephrem. Consequently you freely choose it all time. No, I don’t understand exactly how that works. I do however know for sure that if “you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) And you will be “sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13), never to be lost again (John 10:28).
You would also tell everybody here with no thought of what they might think. Because you would be a “new creature”(2 Corinthians 5:17)“created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that you would walk in them”(Ephesians 2:10). You would not be ashamed of the gospel, seeing it as the power of God unto salvation for all them that believe(Romans 1:16). You will have passed from the death I’m always telling you about to the life I’m always telling you about(John 5:24, 1 John 3:14).
That’s my hope and prayer for you Ephrem. Always will be. People prayed for that for me. I am happy to give back by doing so for you.
[/quote]
Do you think there are some things so totally evil that they are unforgiveable?
Do you think a system that treats all sinners the same no matter what they have done just?
[/quote]No and yes.
No, there is NO sin more powerful than the blood and resurrection of my glorious Lord. Inconceivable. Yes, all sinners are equally damned, but there ARE levels of punishment in their damnation. It’s nice to see you around again Groo. I have quoted you more times than I can count. You were a very worthy contributor to your discussions with me.[/quote]
I simply can’t be onboard with a system that allows certain things to be forgiveable.
Not a believer but assuming God were real, even with free will some things that come to pass are so horrible that He and those that committed the actions should never be forgiven.
[/quote]
That is, without a doubt, one of the most beautiful sentiments I have ever heard. I agree - its unfathomable how child molestation and torture and genocide could ever be forgiven. And often times they aren’t - many people who commit such acts remain involved in them until they die, completely committed to their ways. But sometimes people exit that fog; sometimes they recognize, for the first time, the gravity of their actions. The child on the street ceases to be an object of lust and becomes a human being for the first time in the molester’s eyes, and he can see how deeply his actions hurt the child, how jagged are the scars. And he breaks down in tears and begs for forgiveness. Should he not be forgiven, having only now emerged from the lustful, perverse haze he previously inhabited? Should the man who stepped on people’s toes while blind be held responsible for his deeds when he can finally see?
I don’t buy Tirib’s reading of Romans 1, though I know how foundational it is to his apologetic method. I do believe in free will to a certain degree, in the sense that, when the appropriate information is supplied, people can make the “right decision.” But I also believe that, from birth, human beings are immersed in situations that shape their reflexes and desires, most often negatively, and that without help, most people will continue to engage in often immoral actions without giving them a second thought. That doesn’t make me hate people; it makes me feel sorry for many people. To borrow Jesus’ words, they don’t know what they are doing. That isn’t always the case - some people realize how wrong their actions are and continue to engage in them regardless. But that isn’t the case for everyone. Shouldn’t forgiveness be extended to those who are truly sorry for their actions, who realize for the first time how wrong their actions are?
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< God doesn’t love me per se, but his love is earned by choosing him as my lord and saviour. >>>[/quote]He has to love you first Ephrem. 1st John 4:10 (whole chapter actually)[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< Despite him making me as I am, incapable of religious beliefs, >>>[/quote]You’re capable of all kinds of religious beliefs. I see them all the time. But not saving faith in Christ. [quote]ephrem wrote:<<< because he’s granted me free will to choose him>>>[/quote]He’s commanded you to choose Him. Father Adam sold you into bondage to sin. You freely choose it all time.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< in spite of that the punishment for not choosing him is to suffer for eternity in hell. >>>[/quote]Eternity in hell is for damnable crimes that you commit while every second breathing His air and denying Him your Worship. Father Adam sold you into bondage to sin Ephrem. Consequently you freely choose it all time. No, I don’t understand exactly how that works. I do however know for sure that if “you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) And you will be “sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13), never to be lost again (John 10:28).
You would also tell everybody here with no thought of what they might think. Because you would be a “new creature”(2 Corinthians 5:17)“created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that you would walk in them”(Ephesians 2:10). You would not be ashamed of the gospel, seeing it as the power of God unto salvation for all them that believe(Romans 1:16). You will have passed from the death I’m always telling you about to the life I’m always telling you about(John 5:24, 1 John 3:14).
That’s my hope and prayer for you Ephrem. Always will be. People prayed for that for me. I am happy to give back by doing so for you.
[/quote]
Do you think there are some things so totally evil that they are unforgiveable?
Do you think a system that treats all sinners the same no matter what they have done just?
[/quote]No and yes.
No, there is NO sin more powerful than the blood and resurrection of my glorious Lord. Inconceivable. Yes, all sinners are equally damned, but there ARE levels of punishment in their damnation. It’s nice to see you around again Groo. I have quoted you more times than I can count. You were a very worthy contributor to your discussions with me.[/quote]
I simply can’t be onboard with a system that allows certain things to be forgiveable.
Not a believer but assuming God were real, even with free will some things that come to pass are so horrible that He and those that committed the actions should never be forgiven.
[/quote]
That is, without a doubt, one of the most beautiful sentiments I have ever heard. I agree - its unfathomable how child molestation and torture and genocide could ever be forgiven. And often times they aren’t - many people who commit such acts remain involved in them until they die, completely committed to their ways. But sometimes people exit that fog; sometimes they recognize, for the first time, the gravity of their actions. The child on the street ceases to be an object of lust and becomes a human being for the first time in the molester’s eyes, and he can see how deeply his actions hurt the child, how jagged are the scars. And he breaks down in tears and begs for forgiveness. Should he not be forgiven, having only now emerged from the lustful, perverse haze he previously inhabited? Should the man who stepped on people’s toes while blind be held responsible for his deeds when he can finally see?
I don’t buy Tirib’s reading of Romans 1, though I know how foundational it is to his apologetic method. I do believe in free will to a certain degree, in the sense that, when the appropriate information is supplied, people can make the “right decision.” But I also believe that, from birth, human beings are immersed in situations that shape their reflexes and desires, most often negatively, and that without help, most people will continue to engage in often immoral actions without giving them a second thought. That doesn’t make me hate people; it makes me feel sorry for many people. To borrow Jesus’ words, they don’t know what they are doing. That isn’t always the case - some people realize how wrong their actions are and continue to engage in them regardless. But that isn’t the case for everyone. Shouldn’t forgiveness be extended to those who are truly sorry for their actions, who realize for the first time how wrong their actions are?[/quote]
Some things I truly think shouldn’t be forgiven and forgotten. These are some things I feel there are no middle ground on.
Also I don’t think people change to that significant of a degree when they are adults. Their circumstances might change so that they realize behavior they engaged in at a prior time will have immediate and dire repercussions so they stop and profess change. But give them a chance to engage in rape, murder and genocide again, they would take it.
KingKai25 as I figured, knows nothing of the gospel. He’s a post modern humanistic liberal academic. Autonomous man in all his vainglory. You will no doubt fool many here with this syrupy, tolerant “good guy” routine which may even be sincere. I repeat, you are everything that has castrated and rendered irrelevant the Church of Jesus Christ in the modern world. I have more respect for homosexual activists, militant atheists, jihadist Muslims, Raj, Sparky and Makavali than I do for wolves in sheep’s clothing, angels of light(2nd Corinthians 11:14-15) like you.
This isn’t primarily about Calvinism pal, but you’re too shallow, scholarly and dead to see that.
[quote]pat wrote:
The problem is that I don’t want to kill anybody ever, but everybody has a threshold, you threaten my family, you can kiss your ass good-bye.
The time of, and the people for whom these original books were intended lived in an entirely different world and hence the books made sense. These people were uneducated nomads who didn’t even know not to fuck goats or eat vultures. If you know the history or salvation and the way God works it makes a lot more sense. These are lowly, pretty stupid people whom God chose to use establish himself on earth. To do that initially, there had to be some ass whippin’.
I can explain this in more detail, but I don’t know that the axe you have to grind and the chip on your shoulder will allow you to be as objective as you need to, to understand. [/quote]
Perhaps you haven’t noticed, but I’ve been more than willing to hear you, or any other theist, out. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to question what you say, but then again, converting would be a waste of time if I can’t even convince myself I’m right.
Next question; Since god is all knowing, he must have known ahead of time the amount of suffering that would occur should things go on the path he laid out. This question is a two-parter.
Why did God not change the circumstances of the garden of Eden to avoid what he knew would happen should he not make any changes.
[/quote]
Why he chose to do things the way he did it, I don’t know. It sure would be easier on everybody if he just popped down here and made it all very, very clear, or made us different, incapable of evil. But he didn’t, God doesn’t do easy and never has…
I am going to assume you meant omniscience? There are a few ways to reconcile it. One is the obvious paradox treatment. It’s a possibility of course, in that an omni-everything being should be able to trump even the seemingly logically impossible.
Another possibility is simply a matter of choice. In this scenario, God can choose simply not to know the decisions we are going to make. This would be omnipotence acting on omniscience. While for humans it would simply be impossible to pretend we didn’t know something, an omnipotent being should be able to do this.
Then there is the understand that the issue of freewill and choice actually are metaphysical constructs and technically do not occur in time, but we interact with them in time. So that all matters of choice happen outside the a time based continuum.
God’s not a big fat meanie, sometimes he had to be. How much would we all like it if God just once and for all got rid of all the evil people who rape kids, murder families, do child sexual slavery, who annihilate towns, shoot into a school yard just to make sure one person dies, etc. The world has no shortage of evil. I have heard the atheist criticism of why God doesn’t just get rid of all the evil in the world. Sounds good to me, until…
It sounds good until you realize how many people that really is. It could number in to the billions. So then it begs the question, do you really want God to deliver justice?
But then your stuck with these horrific things people inflict on one another. Just look at Somalia.
Well that’s what happened in the past and it will happen again. What most people miss about the OT, is that while the texts has these events happening in quick succession, that’s not really the case. These events were often spaced by hundreds if not thousands of years between them. Then in the end, there were only a handful.
Last point here, I was just discussing with someone else, this current modern world is no better or less brutal than the old world. There is wide spread evil. People are horrible each other through out the world. We are no more civilized than we have ever been, we just hide it better, we distract ourselves more, we hide it behind walls or use pretty words to make things not look as they first appear.[/quote]
I see most of these points heading in the same direction so I’m going to save us both some time by just assuming we already got there.
Do you agree with the use of Hell (infinite torture) as punishment for finite sins? Also, do you think all humans deserve to go to Hell by birth right and must atone for the sin of… being born in order to go to Heaven? [/quote]
That’s not the way it works. You’re not damned by default. There are some sects that believe that, but they primarily pulled it out of their ass because it’s damn sure not biblical. The components of salvation are faith and behavior. Culpability is the key, you are held accountable for what you do. If you are not culpable, you are not guilty of anything.
Do I think some people deserve to got to hell, based on my finite judgement? absolutely. For some, there is no hell hot enough, no torture sufficient for the evil they propagate. But save for the obvious, I cannot pass judgement because I flat don’t know most people in any detail. [/quote]
Well, that’s refreshing.
Then, one does not necessarily have to be Christian in order to get into heaven? [/quote]
It sure doesn’t hurt, but you are accountable for your own shit. That theme is hammered through out the bible. But Christians do have the benefit of the revelations of Christianity.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Back to the morality topic. What is your opinion of people who are morally against things like eating meat, because its harmful to animals? As far as I know there is nothing in Christianity that says eating meat is wrong. Would you say they are immoral, or have more morals than you?[/quote]
That would be in the realm of learned morality, not intrinsic morality. I don’t deny the existence of learn or socially based morality, it’s just not the totality of morality. At it’s core morality is intrinsic, but that doesn’t stop people from adding all kinds of things to the fold.
For instance, the idea of not eating meat for the benefit of animal life is rooted in the ‘Do no evil’ theme. Whether it’s interpreted correctly or not is debatable.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Philosophy major here, Ethics and public policy. I took some bio courses as well as an evolutionary bio course. Evolutionary bio are going to probably make sense of morality in terms of altruism, human reciprocity (evolution) and how it evolved, they will equate everything to ones ability to pass their genetic material onto the next generation. So making sense of morality in terms of biology is going to be limited to such, and it will probably make quite a bit of sense in their own terms. If you need, maybe look up reciprocity (biology).
and I’m going to say that perhaps there are intrinsic goods in humans. Personally I’m not threatened at all about the evolutionary biologists take is as to how babies evolved what I describe as an attempt at intrinsic good. It makes sense to me, I don’t get what the big deal is. I’m more of a virtue theorist and much in line with what Aristotle believed… We are intelligent animals, and it is good to be a thriving intelligent animal rather than a sickly one. In order to thrive as an intelligent animal I need to satisfy both my physical and facultative potential. Humans are by nature political animals, in order to maximize our success politically we need to be virtuous. Not being fool hardy charging into an impossible fight, not being a coward and not fighting at all, but being brave and picking the fight I am actually in/ capable of winning for example. Having friends/ peers, and doing things that humans do in an excellent fashion.
Moral rights are going to vary from person to person. If you as me, certainly I believe morality evolved and is still evolving. [/quote]
I agree, having a biological component for sympathy, empathy and compassion is so not a big deal. I would expect such a thing. The error the original author made was that compassion, empathy, or sympathy are morality and they are not. They may be manifestation as a result, but those things themselves are not morality.
[quote]groo wrote:
I am not sure which is better to assume that we do have free will or predestination. Either alternative seems unpalatable with the examples of cruelty and inhumanity we have evidence of. And largely this behavior seems to hop out immediately whenever there is conflict or disaster.
Many groups seem perfectly willing to commit atrocities on the “other” whether it be country, culture, religion or color. This seems on its face to be tied in to how we think.[/quote]
Predestination is heavily, heavily, massively flawed. If we are not in control, we are not culpable. All reward and punishment are without purpose, all reflecting emotion is a falsehood.
Technically, morality doesn’t exist in a predestination world. There is no culpability if you are just following a predetermined path and you really have no choice in the matter.
The murderer, never had a choice in a predestined world, so why punish? Of course then the punishment was predestined to.
If your just a puppet, you are at the will of the puppet master. Life itself has no meaning and behavior has no meaning in a predestined world.
“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” Ephesians 1:11
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< I don’t buy Tirib’s reading of Romans 1, though I know how foundational it is to his apologetic method. >>>>[/quote]You’ve read some of my posts. I’m honored. I mean that.
You’re more than welcome to join us. I do not hate YOU, but I most assuredly do abominate that disgusting school of groovy neo-“conservative” academia that you hail from. Fancying yourselves saviors of the savior. He does not need your pathetic help… or mine. The gospel once for all delivered to the saints IS the power of God. Your “progressive” revisions are the devil’s delight. Like I say, you’re more than welcome to join us.
[quote]groo wrote:<<< Not a believer but assuming God were real, even with free will some things that come to pass are so horrible that He and those that committed the actions should never be forgiven. >>>[/quote]But Groo, please listen to me for a minute. Look around yourself. How far can you see? How much do you know compared to all there is. How powerful are you compared to a gorilla to say nothing of say, a supernova.
IF there is a God who commands matter to exist from nothing(of course that’s impossible, that’s the point), could He maybe get the benefit of the doubt that His view encompasses quite a bit more than yours? Consequently could it not then be further extrapolated that He would be far more qualified to declare what will or will not be forgiven… how… and on what basis. It would be His rulebook after all. To me this is elementary, but I was once you and I do understand, like REALLY understand your viewpoint.
Don’t you see that in His kingdom EVERYTHING has a purpose. Even the suffering of children? In your world there CAN’T be any purpose at all. Your very lament on their behalf is ultimately meaningless. You hurt for nothing. They hurt for nothing.[quote]groo wrote:<<< But I admit I am definitely an imperfect judgemental guy. >>>[/quote]So am I. It’s a constant struggle.[quote]groo wrote:<<< a simple lack of faith. >>>[/quote]To Raj the other day:[quote]One bite of a piece of fruit in defiance of the command of the eternal God was eternal enough to plunge every last child of Adam that would ever be born into everlasting damnation. EVERYBODY, including me, deserves to be damned. God in His unthinkable mercy has provided the payment Himself so that some would be saved. The question isn’t “why does God send people to hell?”. The question is “why does He save ANYBODY?”. He owes everybody the lake of fire, but graciously saves some from their sin having punished it already on the cross of Christ and defeated their death in His resurrection.
You don’t understand. It’s not what the action of any particular sin is that makes it eternal. It’s who it is against. The fruit wasn’t evil and it was just a bite. BUT, it was an attack on the authority of the spotlessly holy, almighty and righteous God. The entire 3rd chapter of the epistle of Paul to the Romans lays out in excruciatingly plain language that there is not one single descendant of Adam EVER that does good in the eyes of God. “no, not one”. [/quote]
[quote]ephrem wrote:Brian Cox - Everything is Connected to Everything[/quote]I would really love to know if what he says is true. The thought of this is skull bursting.
Two objects can’t occupy the same space, and this is true for atoms/neutrons and protons aswell. Only on that scale you’re talking about energy states rather than objects.
If you change the energy state of one atom, any other atom that occupies that energy state will have to change because it can’t occupy the same state.
Ofcourse I’m no scientist, but Brian Cox is and he explains this further in a popsci lecture he did in London with a bunch of British celebrities.
I’m downloading the flv of this now so I can extract the audio and listen to it in my car too. I love this stuff. The mind numbing wisdom and might of the creator God on display. I understood completely what he was saying in the first one. It seems highly theoretical, but it does make perfect sense and it perfectly illustrates the systematic method of knowledge bequeathed to us by a systematic God who’s systematic mind it reflects. IF it’s true. Today’s universally applause inducing scientific dogma tends to be next week’s “oops, but we didn’t know about this”.
[quote]groo wrote:<<< Not a believer but assuming God were real, even with free will some things that come to pass are so horrible that He and those that committed the actions should never be forgiven. >>>[/quote]But Groo, please listen to me for a minute. Look around yourself. How far can you see? How much do you know compared to all there is. How powerful are you compared to a gorilla to say nothing of say, a supernova.
IF there is a God who commands matter to exist from nothing(of course that’s impossible, that’s the point), could He maybe get the benefit of the doubt that His view encompasses quite a bit more than yours? Consequently could it not then be further extrapolated that He would be far more qualified to declare what will or will not be forgiven… how… and on what basis. It would be His rulebook after all. To me this is elementary, but I was once you and I do understand, like REALLY understand your viewpoint.
Don’t you see that in His kingdom EVERYTHING has a purpose. Even the suffering of children? In your world there CAN’T be any purpose at all. Your very lament on their behalf is ultimately meaningless. You hurt for nothing. They hurt for nothing.[quote]groo wrote:<<< But I admit I am definitely an imperfect judgemental guy. >>>[/quote]So am I. It’s a constant struggle.[quote]groo wrote:<<< a simple lack of faith. >>>[/quote]To Raj the other day:[quote]One bite of a piece of fruit in defiance of the command of the eternal God was eternal enough to plunge every last child of Adam that would ever be born into everlasting damnation. EVERYBODY, including me, deserves to be damned. God in His unthinkable mercy has provided the payment Himself so that some would be saved. The question isn’t “why does God send people to hell?”. The question is “why does He save ANYBODY?”. He owes everybody the lake of fire, but graciously saves some from their sin having punished it already on the cross of Christ and defeated their death in His resurrection.
You don’t understand. It’s not what the action of any particular sin is that makes it eternal. It’s who it is against. The fruit wasn’t evil and it was just a bite. BUT, it was an attack on the authority of the spotlessly holy, almighty and righteous God. The entire 3rd chapter of the epistle of Paul to the Romans lays out in excruciatingly plain language that there is not one single descendant of Adam EVER that does good in the eyes of God. “no, not one”. [/quote]
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The benefit of the doubt? No. Its unfortunately too easy since the advent of pictures to see too many things that can’t be unseen. And while I can see its a bit ironic to say that people that engaged in genocide should be exterminated its truly what I think. I however don’t particularly feel that should be everyone’s view and I wouldn’t begin to try to convert anyone.
I can understand your position on things granted your assumptions but my assumptions of the world will never be the same.
