[quote]pat wrote:
For the moral relativists out there choke on this:
Now to be a moral relativist, you have to spin a scenario where what is happening to these people is not morally wrong.[/quote]
You can believe in a secular moral system and not be a moral relativist.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Why accept the Bible’s claims but not the Qu’ran for example?[/quote]
Or Hindu claims?
Or Mayan claims?
Or Ancient Greek claims?
Or Scientology claims?
Or Jain claims?
Or Buddhist claims?
Or Ancient Egyptian claims? (hey those guys liked cats almost as much as I do)
Or Mormon claims?
Accepting the claims people generally accept is an accident of birth compounded by lack of critical thought.[/quote]
If you do a little investigation, you’ll see among the monotheistics their themes over lap and and intersect. Yes I include hindu in that as well, because their “gods” are just manifestations of the same one God. It’s a translation issue that leads to the misconception.
As far as the Mayans and other polytheistic societies, their “gods” were an explanation for natural events, the “god of gaps” theory if you will and hence not real. As cosmology so eloquently posits, it’s impossible to have more than one Necessary Being. [/quote]
Why do you put gods in quotes? Their gods are just as legit as your “God”. Your “God” could be a “God of Gaps” too, you know.
[/quote]
I put their ‘gods’ in quotes because it’s a misunderstanding in the translation, under the Hindu scenario. The God of creation, said Necessary Being is not a “god of gaps” theory. If you were to actually followed what I said earlier, that is what set the hebrews apart in ancient times. Philosophy can tell us he exists, and religion can tell us more about him.
Those other religions extinguished simply because they did not work. You can kill every Christian in the world and Christianity will survive.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Well, if the guidance is verifiable legit and good then wouldn’t that lend itself also to the validity of some of the supernatural occurrences as well. Would it make sense that a book containing proper life lessons, moral and life guidance be surrounded by pure bullshit? Usually bullshit begets bullshit. I don’t see how this good life guide could also be a book of lies. That makes no sense. Sure you can get lucky sometimes, but it’s a little beyond luck on how much and how intricately sophisticated it is, when it comes to it’s guidance.[/quote]
No it doesn’t. It just shows the writer(s) were great philosophers for their time. There is bullshit in the Bible, it’s far from all being good. There are stories of incest, rape genocide in the Bible.
The only thing that would prove the supernatural occurrences would be evidence for them.
[quote]pat wrote:
I am referring to the miraculous, not the explainable. I am speaking of that which science cannot explain. There is this myth among the atheistic community that if something miraculous happens it would be big news. It isn’t and it hasn’t really been for some time.
[/quote]
Most atheists would not attribute something to god simply because a scientific explanation doesn’t exist as of today. One could exist in the future as we’ve seen many times before. The most common example which you’ve probably heard: lightening use to be attributed to Zeus. Plus for an atheist one must demonstrate that god is in fact responsible for the event.
[/quote]
That’s not what I am talking about. It isn’t a matter of “We don’t know why therefore God did it” scenario. That’s the ‘god of gaps’ explanation that I wholly reject. We’re not fucking cave men. I am talking about obvious things, things of a religious nature.
Reality doesn’t lie in the senses. Reality lies beyond that. Reality lies in reason and reason relies on epistemology. When you know that nothing is really as it seems, and that you basically live every second of you life based on faith, then it’s not that hard to fathom religious faith.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Study up on Hitler, tig. Don’t let ignorance shackle you to where you’re marginalized on PWI.
In other words don’t grow up to be a Pitttbullll.[/quote]
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.”
You can argue that Hitler was secretly an atheist or whatever, but the fact remains, he used the moral code set out in the bible to gain German support in the extermination of Jews. That’s the real problem with rigid moral codes - long after the teacher is dead it becomes far too easy to twist their words to mean whatever you want.
Just look at all the stupid fights over how to interpret the edicts set out in the bible. If morality is objective and naturally picked up by certain parts of our brain (as I think Pat said a few pages back), then there’s no need to make an effort into it. Whatever moral behaviour God wants should follow naturally. Life is dynamic, shouldn’t God be dynamic too? [/quote]
A lot of crazy people say crazy shit. Hitler was an occultist at best. Some crazy people think that they are Jesus. Hitler was not christian or religious in anyway. That’s an absolute fact.
[/quote]
Hitler was religious, also what makes you certain he was not christian? Did you know what he did on his free time? Does doing something immoral automatically remove you from the christian religion? If so maybe they should re-evaluate how they are reporting their membership numbers, might be a lot lower.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Ironic, as Hitler believed he was following the will of the Christian God. [/quote]
Incorrect.[/quote]
In in his book.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
You can believe in a secular moral system and not be a moral relativist.[/quote]
No, you can’t. In a secular “moral” system, “morasls” are simply “suggestions as to how I think you should behave”. Definitionally, they would not be morals.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
In in his book.[/quote]
On the topic from Jonah Goldberg’s Liberal Fascism
Like the engineers of that proverbial railway bridge, the Nazis
worked relentlessly to replace the nuts and bolts of traditional
Christianity with a new political religion. The shrewdest way to accomplish
this was to co-opt Christianity via the Gleichschaltung
while at the same time shrinking traditional religionâ??s role in civil society.
To this end, Hitler was downright Bismarckian. The German
historian Götz Aly explains how Hitler purchased popularity with
lavish social welfare programs and middle-class perks, often paid for
with stolen Jewish wealth and high taxes on the rich. Hitler banned
religious charity, crippling the churchesâ?? role as a counterweight to
the state. Clergy were put on government salary, hence subjected to
state authority. â??The parsons will be made to dig their own graves,â??
Hitler cackled. â??They will betray their God to us. They will betray
anything for the sake of their miserable little jobs and incomes.â??5
Following the Jacobin example, the Nazis replaced the traditional
Christian calendar. The new year began on January 30 with the Day
of the Seizure of Power.6 Each November the streets of central
Munich were dedicated to a Nazi Passion play depicting Hitlerâ??s
Beer Hall Putsch. The martyrdom of Horst Wessel and his â??old fightersâ??
replaced Jesus and the apostles. Plays and official histories
were rewritten to glorify pagan Aryans bravely fighting against
Christianizing foreign armies. Anticipating some feminist pseudo
history, witches became martyrs to the bloodthirsty oppression of
Christianity.
Under the progressives, the Christian God had been transformed
into the God of lower food prices. Under the Nazis, the Christian
God would be transformed into an Aryan SS officer with Hitler his
right hand. The so-called German Christian pastors preached that
â??just as Jesus liberated mankind from sin and hell, so Hitler saves the
German Volk from decay.â?? In April 1933 the Nazi Congress of
German Christians pronounced that all churches should catechize
that â??God has created me a German; Germanism is a gift of God.
God wills that I fight for Germany. War service in no way injures the
Christian conscience, but is obedience to God.â??7
When some Protestant bishops visited the Fuhrer to register complaints,
Hitlerâ??s rage got the better of him. â??Christianity will disappear from Germany just as it has done in Russia . . . The Germanrace has existed without Christianity for thousands of years . . . and
will continue after Christianity has disappeared . . . We must get
used to the teachings of blood and race.â?? When the bishops objected
that they supported Nazismâ??s secular aims, just not its religious innovations,
Hitler exploded: â??You are traitors to the Volk. Enemies of
the Vaterland and destroyers of Germany.â??8
In 1935 mandatory prayer in school was abolished, and in 1938
carols and Nativity plays were banned entirely. By 1941 religious instruction
for children fourteen years and up had been abolished altogether,
and Jacobinism reigned supreme. A Hitler Youth song rang
out from the campfires:
We are the happy Hitler Youth;
We have no need for Christian virtue;
For Adolf Hitler is our intercessor
And our redeemer.
No priest, no evil one
Can keep us
From feeling like Hitlerâ??s children.
No Christ do we follow, but Horst Wessel!
Away with incense and holy water pots.9
Meanwhile, the orphans were given new lyrics to â??Silent Nightâ??:
Silent night! Holy night! All is calm, all is bright,
Only the Chancellor steadfast in fight,
Watches oâ??er Germany[/i]
http://www.nationalreview.com/liberal-fascism/203956/hitler-christianity-ii
Hitler attempted to use Christianity to his ends, he was not of it. From Goebbels, his diarist:
“The Fueher is a man totally attuned to antiquity. He hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity â?¦. What a difference between the benevolent, smiling Zeus and the pain-wracked, crucified Christ â?¦. What a difference between a gloomy cathedral and a light airy ancient temple.”
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Study up on Hitler, tig. Don’t let ignorance shackle you to where you’re marginalized on PWI.
In other words don’t grow up to be a Pitttbullll.[/quote]
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.”
You can argue that Hitler was secretly an atheist or whatever, but the fact remains, he used the moral code set out in the bible to gain German support in the extermination of Jews. That’s the real problem with rigid moral codes - long after the teacher is dead it becomes far too easy to twist their words to mean whatever you want.
Just look at all the stupid fights over how to interpret the edicts set out in the bible. If morality is objective and naturally picked up by certain parts of our brain (as I think Pat said a few pages back), then there’s no need to make an effort into it. Whatever moral behaviour God wants should follow naturally. Life is dynamic, shouldn’t God be dynamic too? [/quote]
A lot of crazy people say crazy shit. Hitler was an occultist at best. Some crazy people think that they are Jesus. Hitler was not christian or religious in anyway. That’s an absolute fact.
[/quote]
Well, Hitler sure believed he was a Christian. Nobody thinks they’re interpretation of the bible is wrong, so to say these kinds of people are fake Christians and these kinds are real is just a case of “no true Scotsmen”.
However, I agree that Hitler was just a crazy guy who said crazy things. I wouldn’t use him to try to disprove Christianity, my point is that the inverse is also true. Christian or not, Hitler doesn’t speak on behalf of either of us.
Video is semi-relevant
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Well, Hitler sure believed he was a Christian.[/quote]
Well, no, he didn’t - and saying it over and over doesn’t make it true.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Study up on Hitler, tig. Don’t let ignorance shackle you to where you’re marginalized on PWI.
In other words don’t grow up to be a Pitttbullll.[/quote]
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.”
[/quote]
I have a new word for young tigger to add to his vocabulary. Learn this word and apply it where applicable.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/propaganda[/quote]
Oh I have no doubt Hitler used Christianity as propaganda to get the people on his side. What I’m saying is, that is irrelevant. The point is that it was through the use of the rigid Christian moral code, NOT moral nihilism, that Hitler was able to amass such a following. Well, one of the three things, that is.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Well, Hitler sure believed he was a Christian.[/quote]
Well, no, he didn’t - and saying it over and over doesn’t make it true.[/quote]
Saying it’s NOT true over and over again doesn’t make it false either. You have my quote. Do something about it.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Well, Hitler sure believed he was a Christian…
[/quote]
Don’t ever get to wonderin’ why folks don’t take you seriously 'round here.
[/quote]
That’s fine. Your seriousness on the topic seems to blind you anyway. However, I’m convinced that you take me more seriously than anyone else here.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
You can believe in a secular moral system and not be a moral relativist.[/quote]
No, you can’t. In a secular “moral” system, “morasls” are simply “suggestions as to how I think you should behave”. Definitionally, they would not be morals.[/quote]
No.
I do not think morality changes across cultures. Just because a society says female genital mutilation is good doesn’t mean it’s good. It’s still wrong. I am okay with moral absolutes in a limited context. Within the context of the situation and primarily we’re dealing with human beings and thinking minds.
These things are all dependent on physical laws and while we may not know everything and we may not be able to assess the consequences of every situation right off the bat, that doesn’t mean we don’t know anything. If you start saying that in your mind it’s morally correct to go around slaughtering people, I have to question by what you mean by moral because by anything by which we would consider moral, we can demonstrate running around slaughtering people does not lead to a positive result for the societies that allow this or the people being slaughtered.
Secular moral systems require you to analyze and assess complex scenarios. You base your morals on evidence and the consequences of those actions. You start with very basic things like life is preferable to death and you build. When we talk about morals we’re really talking about rules of thumb and general guidelines, and assessing each situation individually.
I liken it to a chess game. You can ask a 1000 chess masters what the best move in the middle of a game is and they may all give you the same answer for situation x. However in game Y you may get a bunch of different answers. Some will be correct, some will be wrong and you may get even different answers that are equally correct because they both lead to good outcomes. But to look at that and say you don’t know what’s correct therefore we shouldn’t play the game is absurd.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Saying it’s NOT true over and over again doesn’t make it false either. You have my quote. Do something about it.[/quote]
Already did, Einstein - it’s clear Hitler used Christianity to his ends, but saw himself as the descendant of paganism and ancient mythologies. Were he a Christian, he wouldn’t have decreed the abolition of Christian customs in favor of ones promoting himself (and other pagan customs).
Read up. Hitler’s reference to the “Almighty Creator” doesn’t refute the fact that Hitler saw himself as something other than a Christian.