[quote]SexMachine wrote:
The “cop killer” rounds is a classic. Pretend Teflon-coated rounds are specifically designed to kill cops and it makes it easier to ban them. I think it was NBC that first came up with that one.[/quote]
It was the tasty riff that really hammered the point home:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
so if I used assault rifle incorrectly,well…[/quote]
Yeah, you did. No worries. It’s a minor inconsequencial thing.
The only reason you got it wrong is because the media is largely populated by anti-gun leftists who are just Useful Idiots for the Global Elite looking to enslave the unarmed masses.
Okay, may have tossed in some tin foil in that last part there. But yeah, the media calls any gun painted black “assault rifle” or “glock”. Because those sound scary, and they are racist, so it gets clicks on websites. [/quote]
The “cop killer” rounds is a classic. Pretend Teflon-coated rounds are specifically designed to kill cops and it makes it easier to ban them. I think it was NBC that first came up with that one.[/quote]
if you don’t think a 7.62 armour piercing round can’t shoot thru kevlar…
^^ Love that saxophone.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Ok, first I would like to point out that even if what you think of christians is true (I don’t believe it is anywhere close to true, but lets agree to that for a moment), then simply because a christian refuses to own or use a gun for self defense doesn’t mean that they must needs be against other NON believing people being able to use guns for self defense or protection from tyranny. [/quote]
Magnificent. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone use the expression “must needs” correctly on an internet forum, and scarcely ever in print outside of, say, Sir Richard Burton.
This only confirms that you, my friend, are a gentleman and a scholar.[/quote]
Coming from you that is high praise indeed sir. Thank you kindly. I shall endeavor to live up to that title.
I should say that the fact you reference the peerless Richard Burton is proof enough that the same goes for you. I recently watched Night of the Iguana again, and if that is a film of his that you haven’t seen yet I highly recommend it. Phenomenal. Becket is of course perhaps cliche but one of my favorites
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
so if I used assault rifle incorrectly,well…[/quote]
Yeah, you did. No worries. It’s a minor inconsequencial thing.
The only reason you got it wrong is because the media is largely populated by anti-gun leftists who are just Useful Idiots for the Global Elite looking to enslave the unarmed masses.
Okay, may have tossed in some tin foil in that last part there. But yeah, the media calls any gun painted black “assault rifle” or “glock”. Because those sound scary, and they are racist, so it gets clicks on websites. [/quote]
The “cop killer” rounds is a classic. Pretend Teflon-coated rounds are specifically designed to kill cops and it makes it easier to ban them. I think it was NBC that first came up with that one.[/quote]
if you don’t think a 7.62 armour piercing round can’t shoot thru kevlar…
[/quote]
Sorry? Can you rephrase please?
Also, just curious. How did you manage to acquire those firearms? You know, given…
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
I have had no scripture quoted to me that in any way indicates violence is ok. [/quote]
Any that specifically say “you have to allow violence be done upon you”?
None of the ones you’ve put up say that. [/quote]
Apparently Jesus endorsed the international socialist program because he and his disciples lived a communal lifestyle. Communal lifestyle = advocates a stateless, international “dictatorship of the proletariat” and the abolition of all private property. You can make Jesus endorse just about anything with a few verses out if context and an elaborate imagination.
[/quote]
how about just logically refuting what I have quoted,with your own scripture. Not explanations of how christians live now etc…I quoted several scriptures,but rather than consider carefully what they say, you just dismiss them because its not what you would like christianity to be. This is unfortunate
[/quote]
He already broke down why your offered up passages were bunk.
Next.
[/quote]
Yep. And it was simple because they simply do not say what he claims they do. I’m baffled as to why he’s taken this strategy. I guess it’s just another version of the “Jesus was a big time liberal so why aren’t you?” strategy.[/quote]
I am pretty sure you don’t understand confusion at all.lol. I am not sure what you think I am up to. Its not chess strategy or leading to any other thing than I stated in the beginning. I am certainly not the typical athiest,I think most of them are assholes. I am not a liberal either. One of my heros is Ronald Reagan. He played a great role in bringing down communism. Communism,although a nice little theory is a joke,foolish,and a failure. I am merely exchanging and challenging ideas. This is not just a mental exercise for me either. I believ the things I say. I hope we can keep the debate respectful,logical,and can all at least think a little more about what being a christian means. Confusion
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luke 22:36
Not to mention, the overwhelming majority of Christians today and historically aren’t pacifists. Quakers and a few other fringe sects and that’s about it.[/quote]
I was gonna post that, but figured I’d let a Christian do it. :)[/quote]
In addition to that is the story of the cleansing of the temple.
Jesus is the Prince of Peace but is no pacifist.
[/quote]
God on earth,ie Jesus disciplining evildoers,is very different to you and me. It is never our role. Confusion
[/quote]
You massively misunderstood the scripture you quoted in response to me. And Jesus was meant to be an example to us, so if you’re going to go with that then you cannot disallow the example of him taking the hurt to the temple marketers. He nowhere says it is wrong to defend yourself. He says it is wrong to seek revenge.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Ok, first I would like to point out that even if what you think of christians is true (I don’t believe it is anywhere close to true, but lets agree to that for a moment), then simply because a christian refuses to own or use a gun for self defense doesn’t mean that they must needs be against other NON believing people being able to use guns for self defense or protection from tyranny. [/quote]
Magnificent. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone use the expression “must needs” correctly on an internet forum, and scarcely ever in print outside of, say, Sir Richard Burton.
This only confirms that you, my friend, are a gentleman and a scholar.[/quote]
Coming from you that is high praise indeed sir. Thank you kindly. I shall endeavor to live up to that title.
I should say that the fact you reference the peerless Richard Burton is proof enough that the same goes for you. I recently watched Night of the Iguana again, and if that is a film of his that you haven’t seen yet I highly recommend it. Phenomenal. Becket is of course perhaps cliche but one of my favorites[/quote]
The Medusa Touch is a pretty good supernatural thriller I thought.
[quote]confusion wrote:
if you don’t think a 7.62 armour piercing round can’t shoot thru kevlar…
[/quote]
A 7.62 AP round is not, as described above, just a cartridge with a teflon-covered bullet. It’s fires a hardened steel penetrator in a cupronickel jacket, and can punch through ceramic or steel armour plate, never mind kevlar.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Also, just curious. How did you manage to acquire those firearms? You know, given…
http://www.firearmtraining.com.au/html/categories.htm
[/quote]
Which is why I was calling bullshit on either him having an SKS or being in Australia.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
I have had no scripture quoted to me that in any way indicates violence is ok. [/quote]
Any that specifically say “you have to allow violence be done upon you”?
None of the ones you’ve put up say that. [/quote]
The cheek sentence seems pretty close. I’ll defer to you all on “context,” but the plain text seems to support allowing yourself to get struck by a violence doer. [/quote]
Well there are a number of problems that SM and beans have both pointed out, even Varq mentioned confusion is misunderstanding the quotes he presented. As far as this one goes there are a couple easy things to keep in mind, but the most obvious point is that the text plainly read says a slap–a blatantly disrespectful gesture, insulting. But in no way life threatening. Easily read it may paraphrase to: “do not become hung-up on ego and matters of saving face. If someone disrespects you, allow him to do so again. Do not be easily angered”. In other words we are not to be ego driven people.
I read it this way, as do most Christians of which I am aware or with which I have community. Naturally this is hard, almost impossible, and I have violated that numerous times as have most people I know regardless of how humble they are.
But nothing about letting your life be threatened or not keeping your loved ones safe.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luke 22:36
Not to mention, the overwhelming majority of Christians today and historically aren’t pacifists. Quakers and a few other fringe sects and that’s about it.[/quote]
I was gonna post that, but figured I’d let a Christian do it. :)[/quote]
In addition to that is the story of the cleansing of the temple.
Jesus is the Prince of Peace but is no pacifist.
[/quote]
God on earth,ie Jesus disciplining evildoers,is very different to you and me. It is never our role. Confusion
[/quote]
You massively misunderstood the scripture you quoted in response to me. And Jesus was meant to be an example to us, so if you’re going to go with that then you cannot disallow the example of him taking the hurt to the temple marketers. He nowhere says it is wrong to defend yourself. He says it is wrong to seek revenge.
[/quote]
2 Corinthians 10:3New International Version (NIV)
3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
Matthew 5:9King James Version (KJV)
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matthew 26:52King James Version (KJV)
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
if you don’t think a 7.62 armour piercing round can’t shoot thru kevlar…
[/quote]
A 7.62 AP round is not, as described above, just a cartridge with a teflon-covered bullet. It’s fires a hardened steel penetrator in a cupronickel jacket, and can punch through ceramic or steel armour plate, never mind kevlar.[/quote]
As far as I know the only 7.62 armour piercing rounds are high velocity rifle rounds. And I wasn’t talking about high velocity rifle rounds but rather handgun rounds. And a 7.62 rifle round would go right through Kevlar unless it had ceramic/polyethylene plates. I’m certainly no expert and I may be wrong but this is my understanding.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
But I won’t do what has pretty much become your main raison d’etre on PWI[/quote]
I’d say we do roughly the same thing, from different angles, perhaps, but with similar tactics, and with similar aims. And on this thread, we’re supposed to be on the same side, or so I thought.[/quote]
Thing is, my God is the honest One. The accurate One. The real One.
Yours inevitably leads to nihilism.[/quote]
Your god made the earth before he made light. He made trees and plants, and daytime and nighttime, before he made the sun and the stars. He made lions and tigers and eagles and sharks and Tyrannosaurus fucking rexes who only ate green vegetation. This inevitably leads to hilarity.
EDIT: and a god who is everything that is, was, and will be leads to the very opposite of nihilism. What would that be…omniism?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
if you don’t think a 7.62 armour piercing round can’t shoot thru kevlar…
[/quote]
A 7.62 AP round is not, as described above, just a cartridge with a teflon-covered bullet. It’s fires a hardened steel penetrator in a cupronickel jacket, and can punch through ceramic or steel armour plate, never mind kevlar.[/quote]
As far as I know the only 7.62 armour piercing rounds are high velocity rifle rounds. And I wasn’t talking about high velocity rifle rounds but rather handgun rounds. And a 7.62 rifle round would go right through Kevlar unless it had ceramic/polyethylene plates. I’m certainly no expert and I may be wrong but this is my understanding.[/quote]
I know you were talking about handguns, it was the confused guy who brought up 7.62 AP rounds. Which are different from regular ball ammunition, and identified by their black tips. I highly doubt he has any of those.
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luke 22:36
Not to mention, the overwhelming majority of Christians today and historically aren’t pacifists. Quakers and a few other fringe sects and that’s about it.[/quote]
I was gonna post that, but figured I’d let a Christian do it. :)[/quote]
In addition to that is the story of the cleansing of the temple.
Jesus is the Prince of Peace but is no pacifist.
[/quote]
God on earth,ie Jesus disciplining evildoers,is very different to you and me. It is never our role. Confusion
[/quote]
You massively misunderstood the scripture you quoted in response to me. And Jesus was meant to be an example to us, so if you’re going to go with that then you cannot disallow the example of him taking the hurt to the temple marketers. He nowhere says it is wrong to defend yourself. He says it is wrong to seek revenge.
[/quote]
2 Corinthians 10:3New International Version (NIV)
3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
Matthew 5:9King James Version (KJV)
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matthew 26:52King James Version (KJV)
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/quote]
I am becoming convinced you are simply pulling verses at random that seem to apply to the general topic on a very superficial level. You are not doing very well.
You are ignoring both Christians who are telling you, “no that’s not the way those verses are understood” as well as non-Christians who are telling you the same thing.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luke 22:36
Not to mention, the overwhelming majority of Christians today and historically aren’t pacifists. Quakers and a few other fringe sects and that’s about it.[/quote]
I was gonna post that, but figured I’d let a Christian do it. :)[/quote]
In addition to that is the story of the cleansing of the temple.
Jesus is the Prince of Peace but is no pacifist.
[/quote]
God on earth,ie Jesus disciplining evildoers,is very different to you and me. It is never our role. Confusion
[/quote]
You massively misunderstood the scripture you quoted in response to me. And Jesus was meant to be an example to us, so if you’re going to go with that then you cannot disallow the example of him taking the hurt to the temple marketers. He nowhere says it is wrong to defend yourself. He says it is wrong to seek revenge.
[/quote]
2 Corinthians 10:3New International Version (NIV)
3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
Matthew 5:9King James Version (KJV)
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matthew 26:52King James Version (KJV)
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/quote]
I am becoming convinced you are simply pulling verses at random that seem to apply to the general topic on a very superficial level. You are not doing very well.
You are ignoring both Christians who are telling you, “no that’s not the way those verses are understood” as well as non-Christians who are telling you the same thing. [/quote]
Aw, c’mon, Aragorn. Cut the poor kid some slack.
This is his first time in PWI.
[quote]confusion wrote:
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/quote]
I have never joined an online discussion, but I’ve been following this one today and wanted to add to it.
This particular verse is often misunderstood. There are two parts to the story: Peter draws his sword and chops of a man’s ear, and then Jesus rebukes him.
First, Peter was already carrying his own sword and we can assume that in all his time with Jesus, that Jesus would have told him not to carry the thing around if He thought that Peter shouldn’t.
Second, Jesus rebukes Peter because he was interfering with God’s plan for Jesus to sacrifice His life. Jesus then says the, “for all that take the sword…” line which I interpret as: don’t be quick to violence or you will get into trouble. It’s similar to the “tough guy who does mma” going to a bar and getting into a fight. If you look for violence you will often find it.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luke 22:36
Not to mention, the overwhelming majority of Christians today and historically aren’t pacifists. Quakers and a few other fringe sects and that’s about it.[/quote]
I was gonna post that, but figured I’d let a Christian do it. :)[/quote]
In addition to that is the story of the cleansing of the temple.
Jesus is the Prince of Peace but is no pacifist.
[/quote]
God on earth,ie Jesus disciplining evildoers,is very different to you and me. It is never our role. Confusion
[/quote]
You massively misunderstood the scripture you quoted in response to me. And Jesus was meant to be an example to us, so if you’re going to go with that then you cannot disallow the example of him taking the hurt to the temple marketers. He nowhere says it is wrong to defend yourself. He says it is wrong to seek revenge.
[/quote]
2 Corinthians 10:3New International Version (NIV)
3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
Matthew 5:9King James Version (KJV)
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matthew 26:52King James Version (KJV)
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/quote]
I am becoming convinced you are simply pulling verses at random that seem to apply to the general topic on a very superficial level. You are not doing very well.
You are ignoring both Christians who are telling you, “no that’s not the way those verses are understood” as well as non-Christians who are telling you the same thing. [/quote]
Aw, c’mon, Aragorn. Cut the poor kid some slack.
This is his first time in PWI. [/quote]
I have never debated these things before. I have no practice. Of course I am doing my best to lrove my point using your own scriptures. Lets be real for a moment. Ok? If I use the book you live by,quoting things it tells you,please refute it with scripture. I also don’t lime being called a liar or some kind of phoney. Again,go back and read my posts. They get put in late and you boys are 2 pages ahead of me. Let me say also,although it should be clear by my posts,I am being respectful,and citing scripture and have gotten 1 scripture in rezponse. If a person without bias,read the new testament,what conclusion would they come to? The word of God says…what does it mean? Do the words not mean what they say? Why? No challenges on the 10 commandments thing? Confusion
Your screen name seems very apt. Perhaps English is not your first language or something because you seem to be totally misunderstanding very simple passages. Like:
[quote] confusion wrote:
2 Corinthians 10:3New International Version (NIV)
3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
Matthew 5:9King James Version (KJV)
[/quote]
Not waging war as the world does? How would one conflate that with a prohibition against self defence?
Yes, making peace is always the best thing. Of course, often the only way to end a war is to win it. But again, this has nothing to do with your alleged prohibition against self defence.
Well, this one is at least ambiguous enough without context to say your interpretation is one possible one. However, firstly many other passages show that interpretation is incorrect. For example:
"I came not to bring peace, but to bring the sword." - Matthew 10:34
Of course, in this instance when he speaks of the “sword” he’s talking metaphorically. The context shows he’s talking about bringing “division” to the people - ie, some will accept him whilst others will turn on him. It will turn the people against each other. Clearly not the statement of a radical pacifist.
But let’s look at the context of Matthew 26:52 that you proffered. It was a warning to Peter not to attack the multitude that had gathered against them because it would bring about his(Peter’s) own death. This is from Gill’s Exposition of Matthew 26:52
“This is not to be understood of magistrates who bear not the sword in vain, are ministers of God for good, and revengers of evil works; but of private persons that use the sword, and that not in self-defence, but for private revenge; or engage in a quarrel, to which they are not called; and such generally perish, as Peter must have done, had it not been for the interposition of almighty power.”
In fact, of the more than 40 commentaries included here:
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/26-52.htm
I cannot find one that interprets it as you do. We all make mistakes. However, it is not common for us to admit so. I don’t see why you are continuing to insist on this very unusual interpretation of the NT. And you’re not even a Christian so it’s really quite a strange position to take.