Roe v. Wade: 42 Years in the Past

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
901

[quote]Roran wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/quote]

I have never joined an online discussion, but I’ve been following this one today and wanted to add to it.

This particular verse is often misunderstood. There are two parts to the story: Peter draws his sword and chops of a man’s ear, and then Jesus rebukes him.

First, Peter was already carrying his own sword and we can assume that in all his time with Jesus, that Jesus would have told him not to carry the thing around if He thought that Peter shouldn’t.

Second, Jesus rebukes Peter because he was interfering with God’s plan for Jesus to sacrifice His life. Jesus then says the, “for all that take the sword…” line which I interpret as: don’t be quick to violence or you will get into trouble. It’s similar to the “tough guy who does mma” going to a bar and getting into a fight. If you look for violence you will often find it. [/quote]

thank you for your input. I get what you’re saying. Confusion

902

“I came to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already set ablaze! Don’t assume that I came to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. The person who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; the person who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever doesn’t take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of me. Anyone finding his life will lose it, and anyone losing his life because of me will find it.”

That’s how you quote scripture.

903

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:
I have had no scripture quoted to me that in any way indicates violence is ok. [/quote]

Any that specifically say “you have to allow violence be done upon you”?

None of the ones you’ve put up say that. [/quote]

The cheek sentence seems pretty close. I’ll defer to you all on “context,” but the plain text seems to support allowing yourself to get struck by a violence doer. [/quote]

Well there are a number of problems that SM and beans have both pointed out, even Varq mentioned confusion is misunderstanding the quotes he presented. As far as this one goes there are a couple easy things to keep in mind, but the most obvious point is that the text plainly read says a slap–a blatantly disrespectful gesture, insulting. But in no way life threatening. Easily read it may paraphrase to: “do not become hung-up on ego and matters of saving face. If someone disrespects you, allow him to do so again. Do not be easily angered”. In other words we are not to be ego driven people.

I read it this way, as do most Christians of which I am aware or with which I have community. Naturally this is hard, almost impossible, and I have violated that numerous times as have most people I know regardless of how humble they are.

But nothing about letting your life be threatened or not keeping your loved ones safe.[/quote]

Fair enough. Your interpretation of the plain text seems reasonable.

904

Damn, SM, you preempted me by less than a minute!

906

Confusion, as you may or may not be aware, Jesus was a Jew.

A Jew is not only allowed to defend himself, he is commanded to defend himself. “If someone comes to kill you,” says the Talmud, “rise up and kill him first.” This is in no way inconsistent with being a “peacemaker”. Hard to make peace when you’ve been murdered.

In fact, Jesus may in Matthew 5:9 have been presciently referring to the Colt Single Action Army revolver, which was the best and most famous self-defence weapon on the planet for many, many years.

908

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Aw, c’mon, Aragorn. Cut the poor kid some slack.

This is his first time in PWI. [/quote]

That’s true. I keep forgetting he’s not part of the shark pool yet lol…besides he has been very nice and that is rare, and appreciated.

909

[quote]confusion wrote:

I have never debated these things before. I have no practice. Of course I am doing my best to lrove my point using your own scriptures. Lets be real for a moment. Ok? If I use the book you live by,quoting things it tells you,please refute it with scripture. I also don’t lime being called a liar or some kind of phoney. Again,go back and read my posts. They get put in late and you boys are 2 pages ahead of me. Let me say also,although it should be clear by my posts,I am being respectful,and citing scripture and have gotten 1 scripture in rezponse. If a person without bias,read the new testament,what conclusion would they come to? The word of God says…what does it mean? Do the words not mean what they say? Why? No challenges on the 10 commandments thing? Confusion
[/quote]

Well, I can say I have never called you phony or a liar. I don’t think you are either, but I do see a lack of understanding why what you are doing is misdirected and wrong. Also, it is very annoying to me–although this is not your fault personally. This just happens to be the 5 billionth time I’ve had people attempt the same kind of argument style and it really wears on you after that many attempts at explanation of why it is incorrect.

It is good to practice debating things, practice only comes by doing and reading (and then applying by doing). I would warn you down the road to get a thick skin because it gets pretty sharp in this forum, but it is never personal. That said, your generally congenial attitude has been refreshing.

910

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Confusion, as you may or may not be aware, Jesus was a Jew.

A Jew is not only allowed to defend himself, he is commanded to defend himself. “If someone comes to kill you,” says the Talmud, “rise up and kill him first.” This is in no way inconsistent with being a “peacemaker”. Hard to make peace when you’ve been murdered.

In fact, Jesus may in Matthew 5:9 have been presciently referring to the Colt Single Action Army revolver, which was the best and most famous self-defence weapon on the planet for many, many years.

[/quote]

hey guy. I read your story and it moved me…I was disappointed you thought I was lying about guns,regardless,if Jesus was commanded to defend himself,why didn’t he,well,we know he had a mission. Christians,however have a very different path to follow. The old testament,ie,jewish God is nothing like the new testament god. As you know. New testament christians(yes,I know there are no old testament christians), are commanded to love thy neighbor as thyself,etc…which is a very tall order. It is one if the reasons I am not a christian. If a person TRULLY loved their neighbor? Hkw different would the world be? Confusion

911

[quote] confused wrote:

If I use the book you live by,quoting things it tells you,please refute it with scripture.

[/quote]

It’s difficult to “use scripture” to prove that something is not being said. You are the one claiming it is being said therefore the burden of proof is upon you. Every single verse you have quoted has been meticulously explained in context. Instead of refuting these explanations you merely post more verses, which are again meticulously explained. That’s where we are at. If you disagree with any of the explanations given as to your misinterpretation then it now behoves you to refute them.

912

ok boys and girls,the next thing Confusion will challenge is: christians not keeping the 10 commandments. It should be obvious where I am going with this.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

? Exodus 20:8-11 (ESV)

there is nowhere in the new testament that says this should change…Why do most Christians observe Sunday(1st day) as the day of rest when they are commanded to keep the sabbath(6th day)? Please PROVE to me using scripture that this is ok? When is the last time a militant athiest asked that question? Confusion

913

[quote] Varqanir wrote:

…leads to the very opposite of nihilism.

[/quote]

I’m afraid not. Your metaphysical system lacks a meaning and purpose to life. If God is merely “existence” in a radically indifferent universe full of suffering, injustice, death and oblivion, then there can be no meaning or purpose to life and therefore you are a nihilist.

I find it interesting when secular folk strenuously deny that they’re nihilists right after essentially saying that they are. Presumably it’s due to the negative connotations of the word. But essentially atheism [u]is[/u] existential nihilism.

914

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote] confused wrote:

If I use the book you live by,quoting things it tells you,please refute it with scripture.

[/quote]

It’s difficult to “use scripture” to prove that something is not being said. You are the one claiming it is being said therefore the burden of proof is upon you. Every single verse you have quoted has been meticulously explained in context. Instead of refuting these explanations you merely post more verses, which are again meticulously explained. That’s where we are at. If you disagree with any of the explanations given as to your misinterpretation then it now behoves you to refute them.[/quote]

No offense MS,but you saying that doesn’t make it true. No such thing has happened. Meticulously explained? Hardly,the best response was from a fellow non believer,but he doesn’t think I had guns either,which sort of bums me our because he seems smart but thinks I am a liar. Confusion

915

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote] Varqanir wrote:

…leads to the very opposite of nihilism.

[/quote]

I’m afraid not. Your metaphysical system lacks a meaning and purpose to life. If God is merely “existence” in a radically indifferent universe full of suffering, injustice, death and oblivion, then there can be no meaning or purpose to life and therefore you are a nihilist.

I find it interesting when secular folk strenuously deny that they’re nihilists right after essentially saying that they are. Presumably it’s due to the negative connotations of the word. But essentially atheism [u]is[/u] existential nihilism.[/quote]

Existentialism is bad? Just curious,cuz I know you feel the nihilism is bad

916

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:

I have never debated these things before. I have no practice. Of course I am doing my best to lrove my point using your own scriptures. Lets be real for a moment. Ok? If I use the book you live by,quoting things it tells you,please refute it with scripture. I also don’t lime being called a liar or some kind of phoney. Again,go back and read my posts. They get put in late and you boys are 2 pages ahead of me. Let me say also,although it should be clear by my posts,I am being respectful,and citing scripture and have gotten 1 scripture in rezponse. If a person without bias,read the new testament,what conclusion would they come to? The word of God says…what does it mean? Do the words not mean what they say? Why? No challenges on the 10 commandments thing? Confusion
[/quote]

Well, I can say I have never called you phony or a liar. I don’t think you are either, but I do see a lack of understanding why what you are doing is misdirected and wrong. Also, it is very annoying to me–although this is not your fault personally. This just happens to be the 5 billionth time I’ve had people attempt the same kind of argument style and it really wears on you after that many attempts at explanation of why it is incorrect.

It is good to practice debating things, practice only comes by doing and reading (and then applying by doing). I would warn you down the road to get a thick skin because it gets pretty sharp in this forum, but it is never personal. That said, your generally congenial attitude has been refreshing.[/quote]

thank you. I hope you find some of my arguments less annoying,I honestly mean that,and hope to show you some thoughts on your faith you may not have considered. Confusion. Ps. Please remember to look back. My posts are slow in showing up and are sometimes pages behind.

917

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
But I won’t do what has pretty much become your main raison d’etre on PWI[/quote]

I’d say we do roughly the same thing, from different angles, perhaps, but with similar tactics, and with similar aims. And on this thread, we’re supposed to be on the same side, or so I thought.[/quote]

Thing is, my God is the honest One. The accurate One. The real One.

Yours inevitably leads to nihilism.[/quote]

Your god made the earth before he made light.

[/quote]

A few hours before. Maybe a few minutes. Maybe even a few seconds. Maybe a few micro seconds.

So what?

A few hours before. Maybe a few minutes. Maybe even a few seconds. Maybe a few micro seconds.

So what?

Ahhhh…your uniformitarianism rears its ugly head once again.

You laugh when you don’t understand? Maybe that’s because you’re not the self-envisioned, vaunted, curious seeker of truth, you’re just another jaded ex-believer.

I don’t believe my God has to literally be the atoms that make up the aardvark or the photons that make up the gleam in sweet Lucy’s smile or the electrons that raced from Japan to Montana in your last post but I do believe He is omniscient. Maybe He is omniscient in the sense you described. I don’t know.

But He is knowable (to an extent).

Your unknowable god is just old, tired, idolatrous pantheism. yawn

I beg to disagree, good sir.

Ditching a personal, knowable God will surely usher you straight to oblivion, intellectually speaking, even while your electrons, neutrons and protons spin in perfect harmony, made possible by a personal, knowable God.[/quote]

Uh huh.

Listen, you drive your Ford, I’ll drive my Toyota. Many paths up the mountain. I’m sorry you don’t like that I don’t share your faith, but I’m sure we can find plenty other things to agree on. Gunz and wimminz and steakz and beerz for instance.

EDIT: So I guess everyone’s done talking about Roe and Wade and abortion and stuff, huh?

918

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
But I won’t do what has pretty much become your main raison d’etre on PWI[/quote]

I’d say we do roughly the same thing, from different angles, perhaps, but with similar tactics, and with similar aims. And on this thread, we’re supposed to be on the same side, or so I thought.[/quote]

Thing is, my God is the honest One. The accurate One. The real One.

Yours inevitably leads to nihilism.[/quote]

Your god made the earth before he made light.

[/quote]

A few hours before. Maybe a few minutes. Maybe even a few seconds. Maybe a few micro seconds.

So what?

A few hours before. Maybe a few minutes. Maybe even a few seconds. Maybe a few micro seconds.

So what?

Ahhhh…your uniformitarianism rears its ugly head once again.

You laugh when you don’t understand? Maybe that’s because you’re not the self-envisioned, vaunted, curious seeker of truth, you’re just another jaded ex-believer.

I don’t believe my God has to literally be the atoms that make up the aardvark or the photons that make up the gleam in sweet Lucy’s smile or the electrons that raced from Japan to Montana in your last post but I do believe He is omniscient. Maybe He is omniscient in the sense you described. I don’t know.

But He is knowable (to an extent).

Your unknowable god is just old, tired, idolatrous pantheism. yawn

I beg to disagree, good sir.

Ditching a personal, knowable God will surely usher you straight to oblivion, intellectually speaking, even while your electrons, neutrons and protons spin in perfect harmony, made possible by a personal, knowable God.[/quote]

Uh huh.

Listen, you drive your Ford, I’ll drive my Toyota. Many paths up the mountain. I’m sorry you don’t like that I don’t share your faith, but I’m sure we can find plenty other things to agree on. Gunz and wimminz and steakz and beerz for instance. [/quote]

yes. I am getting ready to crack beer #13.

920

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I’m afraid not. Your metaphysical system lacks a meaning and purpose to life. If God is merely “existence” in a radically indifferent universe full of suffering, injustice, death and oblivion, then there can be no meaning or purpose to life and therefore you are a nihilist.

I find it interesting when secular folk strenuously deny that they’re nihilists right after essentially saying that they are. Presumably it’s due to the negative connotations of the word. But essentially atheism [u]is[/u] existential nihilism.[/quote]

Under your definition you–and I me you personally–either are a nihilist or your are not depending on whether there is or isn’t a God as you describe. The fact of God is the only thing that counts; your belief is completely irrelevant to whether life has meaning or purpose. So I find it interesting that you think Varq’s “view” counts for anything. Either his life has purpose and meaning, or it doesn’t, regardless with what he “believes.”