Roe v. Wade: 42 Years in the Past

Please correct me if I am wrong but these are the statistics you want me to provide evidence for, correct? Please let me know if I am wrong.

I have a few problems providing you with proof. Without predicting the future, I know you will NOT accept the evidence which I provide because the sources will be pro-LIFE. Again correct me if I am wrong but isn’t the burden on you to prove to me incorrect? If that were to happen than I would be wrong until I provide a source/s. The article was about information from 2003-2004 or maybe 2005, I really do not recall. I just know the information was hard to find because the years were just previous to the privacy laws changing.

Because Google tracks its users and determines what information will be provided, I strongly recommend duckduckgo.com because everyone would get the same results. The last sentence is because of my neurotic brain functioning, but I am trying to help ; )

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

Links for these stats.[/quote]

Inner cities around immigrant populations, around colored neighborhoods and clinics within five miles of college campuses have the highest precedence of Partial Personhood clinics and as a result have the most sexual activity.

I will look more when I get the chance but I will need quite a bit more time simply because I suck at doing research ; )

There is a link about abortion and race that provided more information but I am not sure if that was another link I needed to provide.

The point to me is simple though. If you provide a method for people to experiment with things like drugs or sex, people think about trying a drug or sex simply because it is thought to be “safer” and that is something that fits with what the evidence shows. Kids in the cities that are close to clinics have high rates of teenage / young adult sex. In rural areas where the clinics are almost nonexistent, teenage / young adult sex rates plummet.

[quote]Varqanir wrote: Apology accepted.

Hard to find stats for where teenagers have the LEAST sex. I’m pretty sure that wherever teenagers are, there will be sex going on. However, the places where there are the fewest teen pregnancies per 1000 people are Utah, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Vermont and New Hampshire.

Conversely, Arkansas, Texas, Mississippi, New Mexico and the District of Columbia have the highest prevalence of teen pregnancy.

The CDC is not at all ambiguous about the reason for this. Teen pregnancy is highest where there are the most poor people, particularly Hispanics and blacks, and the lowest where there are the fewest.

It is not because poor blacks and Hispanics are less moral than white people; in fact they are more likely to be devoutly religious. No, it is because they are less likely to use contraception.

Something the Roman Catholic church still, for some bizarre reason, opposes.[/quote]

You have zero problems killing a defenseless child in their first home but you claim to support freedom. LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness is from the Declaration of Independence. How does killing a child fit into LIFE?

Let me try another tactic. Would you let someone walk around our country and kill adults, children or anyone they felt was in their way OR would you stop them and end the death of people?

So you know, Gates supports abortion, he believes he knows what is best for people simply because he has convinced himself that he is special. Now please do not take that to mean I am more special than anyone.

There is no such thing as an unwanted child, every child is wanted by someone.

Here is an awesome information pack to end the ignorance of abortion.

PART ONE: ARGUMENTS CONCERNING LIFE, HUMANITY, AND PERSONHOOD

  1. “It is uncertain when human life begins; that’s a religious question that cannot be answered by science.”

1a. If there is uncertainty about when human life begins, the benefit of the doubt should go to preserving life.

1b. Medical textbooks and scientific reference works consistently agree that human life begins at conception.

1c. Some of the world’s most prominent scientists and physicians testified to a U.S. Senate committee that human life begins at conception.

1d. Many other prominent scientists and physicians have likewise affirmed with certainty that human life begins at conception.

1e. The possibility of human cloning does nothing to discredit the fact that all humans conceived in the conventional manner began their lives at conception.

  1. “The fetus is just a part of the pregnant woman’s body, like her tonsils or appendix. You can’t seriously believe a frozen embryo is an actual person.”

2a. A body part is defined by the common genetic code it shares with the rest of its body; the unborn’s genetic code differs from his mother’s.

2b. The child may die and the mother live, or the mother may die and the child live, proving they are two separate individuals.

2c. The unborn child takes an active role in his own development, controlling the course of the pregnancy and the time of birth.

2d. Being inside something is not the same as being part of something.

2e. Human beings should not be discriminated against because of their place of residence.

2f. There is substantial scientific reason to believe frozen embryos are persons, and should be granted the same rights as older, larger and less vulnerable persons.

  1. “The unborn is an embryo or a fetus-just a simple blob of tissue, a product of conception-not a baby. Abortion is terminating a pregnancy, not killing a child.”

3a. Like toddler and adolescent, the terms embryo and fetus do not refer to nonhumans, but to humans at particular stages of development.

3b. Semantics affect perceptions, but they do not change realities; a baby is a baby no matter what we call her.

3c. From the moment of conception, the unborn is not simple but very complex.

3d. Prior to the first trimester, the unborn already has every body part she will ever have.

3e. Every abortion stops a beating heart and terminates measurable brain waves.

3f. Even in the earliest surgical abortions, the unborn child is clearly human in appearance.

3g. Even before the unborn is obviously human in appearance, she is what she is-a human being.

3h. No matter how much better it sounds, “terminating a pregnancy” is still terminating a life.

  1. “The fetus may be alive, but so are eggs and sperm. The fetus is a potential human being, not an actual one; it’s like a blueprint not a house, an acorn not an oak tree.”

4a. The ovum and sperm are each a product of another’s body; unlike the fertilized egg, neither is an independent entity.

4b. The physical remains after an abortion indicate the end not of a potential life but of an actual life.

4c. Something nonhuman does not become human by getting older and bigger; whatever is human must be human from the beginning.

4d. Comparing preborns and adults to acorns and oaks is dehumanizing and misleading.

4e. Even if the analogy were valid, scientifically speaking an acorn is simply a little oak tree, just as an embryo is a little person.

  1. “The unborn isn’t a person, with meaningful life. It’s only inches in size, and can’t even think; it’s less advanced than an animal, and anyway, who says people have a greater right to live than animals?”

5a. Personhood is properly defined by membership in the human species, not by stage of development within that species.

5b. Personhood is not a matter of size, skill, or degree of intelligence.

5c. The unborn’s status should be determined on an objective basis, not on subjective or self-serving definitions of personhood.

5d. It is a scientific fact that there are thought processes at work in unborn babies.

5e. If the unborn’s value can be compared to that of an animal, there is no reason not to also compare the value of born people to animals.

5f. Even if someone believes people are no better than animals, why would they abhor the killing of young animals, while advocating the killing of young children?

5g. It is dangerous when people in power are free to determine whether other, less powerful lives are meaningful.

5h. Arguments against the personhood of the unborn are shrouded in rationalization and denial.

  1. “A fetus isn’t a person until implantation or until quickening or viability or when it first breathes.”

6a. Implantation is a gauge of personhood only if location, nutrition, and interfacing with others makes us human.

6b. Quickening is a gauge of personhood only if someone’s reality or value is dependent upon being noticed by another.

6c. Viability is an arbitrary concept. Why not associate personhood with heartbeat, brain waves, or something else?

6d. The point of viability changes because it depends on technology, not the unborn herself. Eventually babies may be viable from the point of conception.

6e. In a broad sense, many born people are not viable because they are incapable of surviving without depending on others.

6f. A child’s “breathing,” her intake of oxygen, begins long before birth.

6g. Someone’s helplessness or dependency should motivate us to protect her, not to destroy her.

  1. “Obviously life begins at birth. That’s why we celebrate birthdays, not conception days, and why we don’t have funerals following miscarriages.”

a. Our recognition of birthdays is cultural, not scientific.

7b. Some people do have funerals after a miscarriage.

7c. Funerals are an expression of our subjective attachment to those who have died, not a measurement of their true worth.

7d. There is nothing about birth that makes a baby essentially different than he was before birth.

  1. “No one can really know that human life begins before birth.”

8a. Children know that human life begins before birth.

8b. Pregnant women know that human life begins before birth.

8c. Doctors know that human life begins before birth.

8d. Abortionists know that human life begins before birth.

8e. Feminists know that human life begins before birth.

8f. Society knows that human life begins before birth.

8g. The media know that human life begins before birth.

8h. Prochoice advocates know that human life begins before birth.

8i. If we can’t know that human life begins before birth, how can we know whether it begins at birth or later?
PART TWO: ARGUMENTS CONCERNING RIGHTS AND FAIRNESS

  1. “Even if the unborn are human beings, they have fewer rights than the woman. No one should be expected to donate her body as a life support system for someone else.”

9a. Once we grant that the unborn are human beings, it should settle the question of their right to live.

9b. The right to live doesn’t increase with age and size, otherwise toddlers and adolescents have less right to live than adults.

9c. The comparison between baby’s rights and mother’s rights is unequal. What is at stake in abortion is the mother’s lifestyle, as opposed to the baby’s life.

9d. It is reasonable for society to expect an adult to live temporarily with an inconvenience if the only alternative is killing a child.

  1. “Every person has the right to choose. It would be unfair to restrict a woman’s choice by prohibiting abortion.”

10a. Any civilized society restricts the individual’s freedom to choose whenever that choice would harm an innocent person.

10b. “Freedom to choose” is too vague for meaningful discussion; we must always ask, “Freedom to choose what?”

10c. People who are prochoice about abortion are often not prochoice about other issues with less at stake.

10d. The one-time choice of abortion robs someone else of a lifetime of choices and prevents him from ever exercising his rights.

10e. Everyone is prochoice when it comes to the choices prior to pregnancy and after birth.

10f. Nearly all violations of human rights have been defended on the grounds of the right to choose.

  1. “Every woman should have control over her own body. Reproductive freedom is a basic right.”

11a. Abortion assures that 650,000 females each year do not have control over their bodies.

11b. Not all things done with a person’s body are right, nor should they all be legally protected.

11c. Prolifers consistently affirm true reproductive rights.

11d. Even prochoicers must acknowledge that the “right to control one’s body” argument has no validity if the unborn is a human being.

11e. Too often “the right to control my life” becomes the right to hurt and oppress others for my own advantage.

11f. Control over the body can be exercised to prevent pregnancy in the first place.

11g. It is demeaning to a woman’s body and self-esteem to regard pregnancy as an unnatural, negative, and “out of control” condition.

  1. “Abortion is a decision between a woman and her doctor. It’s no one else’s business. Everyone has a constitutional right to privacy.”

12a. The Constitution does not contain a right to privacy.

12b. Privacy is never an absolute right, but is always governed by other rights.

12c. The encouragement or assistance of a doctor does not change the nature, consequences, or morality of abortion.

12d. The father of the child is also responsible for the child and should have a part in this decision.

12e. The father will often face serious grief and guilt as a result of abortion. Since his life will be significantly affected, shouldn’t he have something to say about it?

  1. “It’s unfair for an unmarried woman to have to face the embarrassment of pregnancy or the pain of giving up a child for adoption.”

13a. Pregnancy is not a sin. Society should not condemn and pressure an unmarried mother into abortion, but should help and support her.

13b. The poor choice of premarital sex is never compensated for by the far worse choice of killing an innocent human being.

13c. One person’s unfair or embarrassing circumstances do not justify violating the rights of another person.

13d. Adoption is a fine alternative that avoids the burden of child raising, while saving a life and making a family happy; it is tragic that adoption is so infrequently chosen as an alternative to abortion.

13e. The reason that adoption may be painful is the same reason that abortion is wrong-a human life is involved.

  1. “Abortion rights are fundamental for the advancement of women. They are essential to having equal rights with men.”

14a. Early feminists were prolife, not prochoice.

14b. Some active feminists still vigorously oppose abortion.

14c. Women’s rights are not inherently linked to the right to abortion.

14d. The basic premises of the abortion-rights movement are demeaning to women.

14e. Many of the assumptions that connect women’s welfare with abortion, the Pill and free sex have proven faulty.

14f. Some of the abortion-rights strategies assume female incompetence and subject women to ignorance and exploitation.

14g. Abortion has become the most effective means of sexism ever devised, ridding the world of multitudes of unwanted females.

  1. “The circumstances of many women leave them no choice but to have an abortion.”

15a. Saying they have no choice is not being prochoice, but pro-abortion.

15b. Those who are truly prochoice must present a woman with a number of possible choices, rather than just selling the choice of abortion.

15c. “Abortion or misery” is a false portrayal of the options; it keeps women from pursuing-and society from providing-positive alternatives.

  1. “I’m personally against abortion, but I’m still prochoice. It’s a legal alternative and we don’t have the right to keep it from anyone. Everyone’s free to believe what they want, but we shouldn’t try to impose it on others.”

16a. To be prochoice about abortion is to be proabortion.

16b. The only good reason for being personally against abortion is a reason that demands we be against other people choosing to have abortions.

16c. What is legal is not always right.

16d. How can we tell people they are perfectly free to believe abortion is the killing of children, but they are not free to act as if what they believe is really true?
PART THREE: ARGUMENTS CONCERNING SOCIAL ISSUES

  1. “‘Every child a wanted child.’ It’s unfair to children to bring them into a world where they’re not wanted.”

17a. Every child is wanted by someone-there is no such thing as an unwanted child.

17b. There is a difference between an unwanted pregnancy and an unwanted child.

17c. “Unwanted” describes not a condition of the child but an attitude of adults.

17d. The problem of unwantedness is a good argument for wanting children, but a poor argument for eliminating them.

17e. What is most unfair to “unwanted” children is to kill them.

  1. “Having more unwanted children results in more child abuse.”

18a. Most abused children were wanted by their parents.

18b. Child abuse has not decreased since abortion was legalized, but has dramatically increased.

18c. If children are viewed as expendable before birth, they will be viewed as expendable after birth.

18d. It is illogical to argue a child is protected from abuse through abortion since abortion is child abuse.

  1. “Restricting abortion would be unfair to the poor and minorities, who need it most.”

19a. It is not unfair for some people to have less opportunity than others to kill the innocent.

19b. The rich and white, not the poor and minorities, are most committed to unrestricted abortion.

19c. Prochoice advocates want the poor and minorities to have abortions, but oppose requirements that abortion risks and alternatives be explained to them.

19d. Planned Parenthood’s abortion advocacy was rooted in the eugenics movement and its bias against the mentally and physically handicapped and minorities.

  1. “Abortion helps solve the problem of overpopulation and raises the quality of life.”

20a. The current birth rate in America is less than what is needed to maintain our population level.

20b. The dramatic decline in our birth rate will have a disturbing economic effect on America.

20c. Overpopulation is frequently blamed for problems with other causes.

20d. If there is a population problem that threatens our standard of living, the solution is not to kill off part of the population.

20e. Sterilization and abortion as cures to overpopulation could eventually lead to mandatory sterilization and abortion.

20f. The “quality of life” concept is breeding a sense of human expendability that has far-reaching social implications.

  1. “Even if abortion were made illegal, there would still be many abortions.”

21a. That harmful acts against the innocent will take place regardless of the law is a poor argument for having no law.

21b. The law can guide and educate people to choose better alternatives.

21c. History shows that laws concerning abortion have significantly influenced whether women choose to have abortions.

  1. “The anti-abortion beliefs of the minority shouldn’t be imposed on the majority.”

22a. Major polls clearly indicate it is a majority, not a minority, who believe there should be greater restrictions on abortion.

22b. Many people’s apparent agreement with abortion law stems from their ignorance of what the law really is.

22c. Beliefs that abortion should be restricted are embraced by a majority in each major political party.

22d. In 1973 the Supreme Court imposed a minority morality on the nation, ignoring the votes of citizens and the decisions of state legislatures.

  1. “The anti-abortion position is a religious belief that threatens the vital separation of church and state.”

23a. Many nonreligious people believe that abortion kills children and that it is wrong.

23b. Morality must not be rejected just because it is supported by religion.

23c. America was founded on a moral base dependent upon principles of the Bible and the Christian religion.

23d. Laws related to church and state were intended to assure freedom for religion, not freedom from religion.

23e. Religion’s waning influence on our society directly accounts for the moral deterioration threatening our future.
PART FOUR: ARGUMENTS CONCERNING HEALTH AND SAFETY

  1. “If abortion is made illegal, tens of thousands of women will again die from back-alley and clothes-hanger abortions.”

24a. For decades prior to its legalization, 90 percent of abortions were done by physicians in their offices, not in back alleys.

24b. It is not true that tens of thousands of women were dying from illegal abortions before abortion was legalized.

24c. The history of abortion in Poland invalidates claims that making abortion illegal would bring harm to women.

24d. Women still die from legal abortions in America.

24e. If abortion became illegal, abortions would be done with medical equipment, not clothes hangers.

24f. We must not legalize procedures that kill the innocent just to make the killing process less hazardous.

24g. The central horror of illegal abortion remains the central horror of legal abortion.

  1. “Abortion is a safe medical procedure, safer than full-term pregnancy and childbirth.”

25a. Abortion is not safer than full-term pregnancy and childbirth.

25b. Though the chances of a woman’s safe abortion are now greater, the number of suffering women is also greater because of the huge increase in abortions.

25c. Even if abortion were safer for the mother than childbirth, it would still remain fatal for the innocent child.

25d. Abortion can produce many serious medical problems.

25e. Abortion significantly raises the rate of breast cancer.

25f. The statistics on abortion complications and risks are often understated due to the inadequate means of gathering data.

25g. The true risks of abortion are rarely explained to women by those who perform abortions.

  1. “Abortion is an easy and painless procedure.”

26a. The various abortion procedures are often both difficult and painful for women.

26b. Abortion is often difficult and painful for fathers, grandparents, and siblings of the aborted child.

26c. Abortion is often difficult and painful for clinic workers.

26d. Abortion is difficult and painful for the unborn child.

26e. Even if abortion were made easy or painless for everyone, it wouldn’t change the bottom-line problem that abortion kills children.

  1. “Abortion relieves women of stress and responsibility, and thereby enhances their psychological well-being.”

27a. Research demonstrates abortion’s adverse psychological effects on women.

27b. The many post-abortion therapy and support groups testify to the reality of abortion’s potentially harmful psychological effects.

27c. The suicide rate is significantly higher among women who have had abortions than among those who haven’t.

27d. Postabortion syndrome is a diagnosable psychological affliction.

27e. Many professional studies document the reality of abortion’s adverse psychological consequences on a large number of women.

27f. Abortion can produce both short and longer term psychological damage, especially a sense of personal guilt.

27g. Most women have not been warned about and are completely unprepared for the psychological consequences of abortion.

  1. “Abortion providers are respected medical professionals working in the woman’s best interests.”

28a. Abortion clinics do not have to maintain the high standards of health, safety, and professionalism required of hospitals.

28b. Many clinics are in the abortion industry because of the vast amounts of money involved.

28c. Clinic workers commonly prey on fear, pain, and confusion to manipulate women into getting abortions.

28d. Clinic workers regularly mislead or deceive women about the nature and development of their babies.

28e. Abortionists engage in acts so offensive to the public that most media outlets refuse to describe them even in the abortionist’s own words.

28f. Abortionists, feminists, the past president of the United States and many congressmen have defended partial-birth abortion, one of the most chilling medical atrocities in human history.

28g. Abortion clinics often exploit the feminist connection, making it appear their motive is to stand up for women.

28h. Doctors doing abortions violate the fundamental creeds of the medical profession.
PART FIVE: ARGUMENTS CONCERNING THE HARD CASES

  1. “What about a woman whose life is threatened by pregnancy or childbirth?”

29a. It is an extremely rare case when abortion is required to save the mother’s life.

29b. When two lives are threatened and only one can be saved, doctors must always save that life.

29c. Abortion for the mother’s life and abortion for the mother’s health are usually not the same issue.

29d. Abortion to save the mother’s life was legal before convenience abortion was legalized, and would continue to be if abortion were made illegal again.

  1. “What about a woman whose unborn baby is diagnosed as deformed or handicapped?”

30a. The doctor’s diagnosis is sometimes wrong.

30b. The child’s deformity is often minor.

30c. Medical tests for deformity may cause as many problems as they detect.

30d. Handicapped children are often happy, always precious, and usually delighted to be alive.

30e. Handicapped children are not social liabilities, and bright and “normal” people are not always social assets.

30f. Using dehumanizing language may change our thinking, but not the child’s nature or value.

30g. Our society is hypocritical in its attitude toward handicapped children.

30h. The adverse psychological effects of abortion are significantly more traumatic for those who abort because of deformity.

30i. The arguments for killing a handicapped unborn child are valid only if they also apply to killing born people who are handicapped.

30j. Abortions due to probable handicaps rob the world of unique human beings who would significantly contribute to society.

30k. Abortions due to imperfections have no logical stopping place; they will lead to designer babies, commercial products to be bred and marketed, leaving other people to be regarded as inferior and disposable.

  1. “What about a woman who is pregnant due to rape or incest?”

31a. Pregnancy due to rape is extremely rare, and with proper treatment can be prevented.

31b. Rape is never the fault of the child; the guilty party, not an innocent party, should be punished.

31c. The violence of abortion parallels the violence of rape.

31d. Abortion does not bring healing to a rape victim.

31e. A child is a child regardless of the circumstances of his conception.

31f. What about already-born people who are “products of rape”?

31g. All that is true of children conceived in rape is true of those conceived in incest.
FINAL THOUGHTS ON THE HARD CASES

  1. No adverse circumstance for one human being changes the nature and worth of another human being.

  2. Laws must not be built on exception cases.
    PART SIX: ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE CHARACTER OF PROLIFERS

  3. “Anti-abortionists are so cruel that they insist on showing hideous pictures of dead babies.”

32a. What is hideous is not the pictures themselves, but the reality they depict.

32b. Pictures challenge our denial of the horrors of abortion. If something is too horrible to look at, perhaps it is too horrible to condone.

32c. Nothing could be more relevant to the discussion of something than that which shows what it really is.

32d. It is the prochoice position, not the prolife position, that is cruel.

  1. “Prolifers don’t care about women, and they don’t care about babies once they’re born. They have no right to speak against abortion unless they are willing to care for these children.”

33a. Prolifers are actively involved in caring for women in crisis pregnancies and difficult child-raising situations.

33b. Prolifers are actively involved in caring for “unwanted” children and the other “disposable people” in society.

33c. It is “abortion providers” who do not provide support for women choosing anything but abortion.

  1. “The anti-abortionists are a bunch of men telling women what to do.”

34a. There is no substantial difference between men and women’s views of abortion.

34b. Some polls suggest more women than men oppose abortion.

34c. The great majority of prolife workers are women.

34d. If men are disqualified from the abortion issue, they should be disqualified on both sides.

34e. Men are entitled to take a position on abortion.

34f. There are many more women in prolife organizations that there are in proabortion organizations.

34g. Of women who have had abortions, far more are prolife activists than prochoice activists.

  1. “Anti-abortionists talk about the sanctity of human life, yet they favor capital punishment.”

35a. Not all prolifers favor capital punishment.

35b. Capital punishment is rooted in a respect for innocent human life.

35c. There is a vast difference between punishing a convicted murderer and killing an innocent child.

  1. “Anti-abortion fanatics break the law, are violent, and bomb abortion clinics.”

36a. Media coverage of prolife civil disobedience often bears little resemblance to what actually happens.

36b. Prolife civil disobedience should not be condemned without understanding the reasons behind it.

36c. Peaceful civil disobedience is consistent with the belief that the unborn are human beings.

36d. Prolife protests have been remarkably nonviolent, and even when there has been violence it has usually been committed by clinic employees and escorts.

36e. Abortion clinic bombing and violence are rare, and are neither done nor endorsed by prolife organizations.

  1. “The anti-abortionists distort the facts and resort to emotionalism to deceive the public.”

37a. The facts themselves make abortion an emotional issue.

37b. It is not the prolife position but the prochoice position that relies on emotionalism more than truth and logic.

37c. The prolife position is based on documented facts and empirical evidence, which many prochoice advocates ignore or distort.

37d. The prochoice movement consistently caricatures and misrepresents prolifers and their agenda.

37e. The prochoice movement, from its beginnings, has lied to and exploited women, including the “Roe” of Roe v. Wade and the “Doe” of Doe v. Bolton.

  1. “Anti-abortion groups hide behind a profamily facade, while groups such as Planned Parenthood are truly profamily because they assist in family planning.”

38a. The prochoice movement’s imposition of “family planning” on teenagers has substantially contributed to the actual cause of teen pregnancy.

38b. Through its opposition to parental notification and consent, Planned Parenthood consistently undermines the value and authority of the family.

38c. Planned Parenthood makes huge financial profits from persuading people to get abortions.

38d. Planned Parenthood has been directly involved in the scandals of trafficking baby body parts.

38e. As demonstrated in the case of Becky Bell, the prochoice movement is willing to distort and exploit family tragedies to promote its agenda.

38f. Planned Parenthood, the prochoice movement, and the media ignore family tragedies that do not support the prochoice agenda.
SUMMARY ARGUMENT

  1. “The last three decades of abortion rights have helped make our society a better place to live.”

39a. Abortion has left terrible holes in our society.

39b. Abortion has made us a nation of schizophrenics about our children.

39c. Abortion is a modern holocaust we are accomplices to, and which is breeding unparalleled violence.

39d. Abortion is taking us a direction from which we might never return.

39e. Abortion has ushered in the brave new world of human pesticides.

39f. Abortion has led us into complete moral subjectivism in which we are prone to justify as ethical whatever it is we want to do.

http://lifestrategies.thingseternal.com/topics/abortion/prochoice-arguments.html

Why cut and paste eight pages of points? Why not just post the link? That’s kind of indicative of an obsessive personality type. You know, the kind of person who gets fixated on one particular thing and it grows to take up every aspect of their lives out of all proportion and so on. Just some friendly advice; try to relax a bit and take some time to think about other things. You’re certainly not helping your cause with the obsessive fixation. After all, we don’t want people to think of prolifers as fruit loops do we?

Every civilised society has came to the same conclusion, releasing women from the animal cycle of involuntary reproduction and ownership leads to a more free and open society.

I recommend people read Christopher Hitchens article on it for vanity fair from a few years ago. Absolutely magnificent writing. He talks about how silly it is to let made up ancient anti scientific absolute moral stances interfere with abortion, stem cell advancement etc.

One of the best polemicists of his generation.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
After all, we don’t want people to think of prolifers as fruit loops do we?[/quote]

You don’t suppose there’s any danger of that, do you?

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I have a few problems providing you with proof.[/quote]

Well, here’s one suggestion: avoid making claims that you can’t actually back up.

A very reasonable assumption. Not exactly what one might call an unbiased source.

Well, KD, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And that which is claimed without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. You must know this is true.

Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but you are claiming that of every hundred women in this country who abort a pregnancy caused by rape, only three of them survive for longer than a few years? That the very act of holding in their arms the offspring of the men who raped them somehow gives them the will and the strength to carry on? Really?

Yeah, I’d like to see the peer-reviewed study containing that statistic.

[quote] Varqanir wrote:

Well, KD, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And that which is claimed without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. You must know this is true.

[/quote]

No, he really doesn’t know that. That’s why he says things like:

[quote] kneedragger79 wrote:

I have a few problems providing you with proof.

[/quote]

And

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
There is no such thing as an unwanted child, every child is wanted by someone.

Here is an awesome information pack to end the ignorance of abortion.[/quote]

Wow. Cool. Straw men on parade.

I have never heard any pro-choice advocate make any of these arguments. Have you?

For that matter, have you ever had a reasoned debate with anyone, face to face, about this issue? I don’t mean shouting canned slogans and rhetoric back and forth, but just you and someone else on the opposite side of the issue actually sitting down and exchanging views?

If so, how did it go?

If not, why not?

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Please correct me if I am wrong but these are the statistics you want me to provide evidence for, correct? Please let me know if I am wrong.

I have a few problems providing you with proof. Without predicting the future, I know you will NOT accept the evidence which I provide because the sources will be pro-LIFE. Again correct me if I am wrong but isn’t the burden on you to prove to me incorrect? If that were to happen than I would be wrong until I provide a source/s. The article was about information from 2003-2004 or maybe 2005, I really do not recall. I just know the information was hard to find because the years were just previous to the privacy laws changing.

Because Google tracks its users and determines what information will be provided, I strongly recommend duckduckgo.com because everyone would get the same results. The last sentence is because of my neurotic brain functioning, but I am trying to help ; )

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

Links for these stats.[/quote]
[/quote]

lol…So, you can spew anything you want without evidence?

I looked for anything mentioning 97% percent and found nothing. I assume you made it up. The real question is why you did not go with %100 or %99.99

You never actually found information proving my data incorrect. However I will try to find the information and provide the link. However I know there will be many, many posters ^ who will claim the evidence is biased. Jaa jaa jaa jaa do not forget I can NOT predict the future but I can accurately guess how people act and say at times ; ) Just please give me some time because in my life, finding the link is low on my list of priorities. In addition, the information was collected a decade ago and is sure to be further buried by time.

As for talking to people who have direct experience with abortion, yes. I have talked with many people about abortion and the spectrum is huge, I grant you that. From people who are opposed to even the idea of abortion to staunch supporters of slaughtering innocent children. A large, large number (vast majority) have been those women who had an abortion and later regret deciding what is thought to be best for themselves. Murder is always wrong, always.

In my mind, people who support abortion simply do because they cannot see and touch the child so it would be hard to protect something they cannot directly touch, smell or see. That might also explain why many pro-LIFE people also defend GOD. Does that speak for everyone? Absolutely not, but it does hole true for the vast majority. Just like the majority of women later regret abortion, but that does not mean all women later regret abortion.

kneedragger:

Oh no you didn’t…

"25e. Abortion significantly raises the rate of breast cancer. "

Once again you are caught lying about the ABC link. You should know better by now that this is a bogus “fact” concocted by pseudo-scientific liars hellbent on scaring women.

As long as you keep lying, I will continue to point out that you are a liar.

jnd

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
You never actually found information proving my data incorrect.[/quote]

NO. You made the claim. YOU are supposed to support the claim you made with evidence. That is how these things work, and every scientist, philosopher, and analyst knows these things. If you want people to take your argument on the survival rate seriously, then YOU are the person that needs to support your claim and do so with unbiased, or at least methodologically sound, evidence. This is standard practice, and it goes for all fields.

You also did not provide “data”, e.g. hard numbers and methodology. You made a claim with a number–a very, very extraordinary and unsourced number. That is not data. This fact is also fundamentally basic to science, debate, philosophy and ratiinal analysis.

That wasn’t the question he asked. He asked if you had a direct, sit down conversation–debate, if you will–with at least a couple people of opposing view on this topic. In person, not via the internet. He did not ask you if you had “talked with people with direct experience of abortion”. He asked specifically about a sit-down conversation with a person of opposing view. AND he asked you follow up questions to that.

Why is it the people most adamant about outlawing abortion are also the most adamant about cutting social services to help the little sprogs when they finally drop out of the womb?

I guess jesus only casts his magical blessings for those under a year old. Then his followers become ardent social darwinists.

[quote]Perlenbacher15 wrote:
Why is it the people most adamant about outlawing abortion are also the most adamant about cutting social services to help the little sprogs when they finally drop out of the womb?

I guess jesus only casts his magical blessings for those under a year old. Then his followers become ardent social darwinists.[/quote]

Perhaps you’d like to take a swing at making an argument that isn’t a raging straw man?

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Perlenbacher15 wrote:
Why is it the people most adamant about outlawing abortion are also the most adamant about cutting social services to help the little sprogs when they finally drop out of the womb?

I guess jesus only casts his magical blessings for those under a year old. Then his followers become ardent social darwinists.[/quote]

Perhaps you’d like to take a swing at making an argument that isn’t a raging straw man?[/quote]

How is what I said an informal fallacy? Almost all pro life people are right wing, they also happen to be mainly religious. These same people clearly overwhelmingly vote for people who are for scalling back or removing social services.

You don’t think this is true?

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
January twenty-second marks an anniversary of a court decision that has resulted in the legal slaughter of over FIFTY-SEVEN MILLION completely innocent lives. The numbers collected by the CDC are the lowest possible, in no way could they possibly be any lower.

Please remember that the child was brought into the world after the mother took part in an activity that is known to create life. If a discussion about the tiny number of women who are raped is desired, I would be happy to have that discussion.

The truth about Jane Roe of the decision is not known by many. In fact after the first bullet point, the details of the rest of the case were completely new to me. Yet nearly every person I talk with about abortion tells me that I am staunch pro-LIFE.

[b]5 facts about “Jane Roe” (Norma McCorvey)[/b]

This month is the forty-second anniversary of the legal decision, Roe v. Wade, in which the Supreme Court eliminated the abortion laws of all 50 states. Here are five facts about the plaintiff behind the case that transformed America:

  1. “Jane Roe” was the legal pseudonym for Norma McCorvey the plaintiff in Roe v. Wade. McCorvey filed court documents against Henry WADE, the district attorney of Dallas County from 1951 to 1987, who enforced a Texas law that prohibited abortion, except to save a woman’s life.

  2. In 1969, McCorvey was 22 years old, divorced, homeless, and pregnant for the third time (she had placed her first two children for adoption). An adoption agency connected her with two young lawyers fresh out of law school who were eager to challenge the Texas statutes on abortion. McCorvey only met with her lawyers twice-once for beer and pizza, the other time to sign an affidavit (which she didn’t read). In order to speed things up McCorvey lied and told them she had been raped. She never appeared in court, and she found out about the infamous ruling from the newspapers. The baby she was seeking to abort was born and placed for adoption.

  3. When McCorvey met her lawyers she didn’t know the meaning of “abortion.” Her lawyers told her that abortion just dealt with a piece of tissue, and that it was like passing a period rather than the termination of a distinct, living, and whole human organism. Abortion was a taboo topic in 1970, and Norma had dropped out of school at the age of 14. She knew that John Wayne movies talked about “aborting the mission,” so she thought it meant to "go back"Ã?¢??as in, going back to not being pregnant. She honestly believed “abortion” meant a child was prevented from coming into existence.

  4. In the late-1990s, McCorvey was working at a Dallas abortion clinic when the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue moved its offices next door. She says Rev. Phillip Benham, Operation Rescue’s national director, started “sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ” with her. She later became a Catholic and committed pro-life advocate.

  5. In February 2005, McCorvey petitioned the Supreme Court to overturn the 1973 decision with McCorvey v. Hill, arguing that she had standing to do so as one of the original litigants and that the case should be heard once again in light of what she claimed was evidence that the procedure harms women. The courts, however, denied her petition.

The original article can be viewed here - 5 facts about Jane Roe (Norma McCorvey) - ERLC -
[/quote]

Well I got kind of a cool story about meeting Norma McCorvey. She was giving a talk at a local church, describing her life and experience, basically what is written above. After words I went out and had a cigarette with her as she smoked and I did too at the time. It was an interesting conversation to say the least.
It was cigarettes that changed her, ironically.
She was working at an abortion clinic and an Operation Rescue office set up camp next door. As it turned out, both her and one of the heads of Operation Rescue both smoked and they became friends. It was over the course of that time talking with the Operation Rescue guy that she did a 180 on her position on abortion and started fighting against it.
Now that is a long story short. Her disenchantment with abortion started earlier than that. Though she actually had little to do with the case other than be a proxy for it, she never had and abortion, wasn’t considering one either, she got paid by some lawyers to be the the Jane Roe in the case, she was poor and needed the money. After that she became an abortion celebrity. She was invited all kinds of places by NOW and Planned Parenthood and their ilk mainly to be present at functions and celebrations of abortion. Also, she had gotten a life time career at the abortion clinics of her choice. It was actually during those times, she told me personally, that she started to feel disgusted by the proponents of abortion. For instance, she was at a camp out where women were literally celebrating and bragging about their abortions, the thing that got to her she said was a woman bragging about having 10 abortions. She said it was about that time she started questioning the morality of abortion. She said that it made her feel a little disgusted, though she couldn’t really put her finger on why at the time.

Fast forward back to the abortion clinic next to Operation Rescue and her talks with Rev. Phillip Benham of the office there during their smoke breaks. He didn’t judge her, he just spoke to her about small talk. She’s the one who initiated the talks about abortion and eventually God and that’s what changed her. She was the one who asked the questions, he never pushed her, he never attacked her or did anything. She started to ask questions and he answered them. So when it’s said he ‘proclaimed the gospel to her’, that’s true. But it conjures an inaccurate picture of how it actually went down. It started with polite conversation first, then friendship and then real discussion. But the seeds of her discontent were laid down before that encounter, her own experience and disgust with the behavior of the people who made light of the heaviness of abortion. It is important to note that she initiated the conversations about God and abortion with Rev. Benham. At first, they were merely smoking buddies. God works in strange ways, even through cigarettes.

Soon after she quit the abortion industry, turned on them completely, exposing them about everything and converted to Catholicism. She has since dedicated her life to fighting and trying to get the case reheard. The basis being that she was being used at the time and wasn’t really interested in having an abortion.
Several cigarettes later she pulled out a poem she wrote to all the kids who have died from abortion and read it to me. The poem is basically an apology for her role and a promise to fight against abortion. She showed me her necklace that she wears as a tribute to the babies that have died because of abortion. It was one of the most interesting conversations I have ever had in my life.

Needless to say she was one of the most interesting people I have ever met. She is in a very unique position in history. She was ‘Jane Roe’, she was the basis for the 1973 decision, she says abortion is murder, she fights vehemently against it every day of her life. A quest she says will never stop until the day she dies. I certainly will never forget it. Whose going to argue against Jane Roe?

She went from a celebratory figure for abortion to a pariah. She has suffered many attacks at the hands of those who used to celebrate her. She considers this an honor now.

If Jane Roe calls abortion murder, if Jane Roe says it’s wrong, if Jane Roe turned against the industry she helped create, it’s got to make you think.

[quote]streamline wrote:

First I am pro choice because I believe in every persons right to govern their own life choices. [/quote]

No you don’t. The baby who is vacuumed out doesn’t get that right. You believe in SOME people’s right ot govern their life choices, not everyone’s.

I’m going to go out on a limb and assume those babies would decide to be given the chance to live…

Ummm… No. Not only does the former mother face the consequences, the baby faces the most significant.

No, again you only stand up for the right of SOME people to choose, not all.

The fact “birth right” came out of you during a pro-choice ramble is hilariously ironic.

At least you are half rational on this topic. Oh and guns are no unicorns, they exist, it’s okay to believe in them.

[quote] but I will defend anyones right to make that choice.

[/quote]

No, you defend the “right” of SOME people to make that choice.