Thinking I’m going to try deadlifts with a wider stance tomorrow. Everything I do tends to feel better with a wider stance whether that’s squatting or push pressing.
Fuck yeah bring on WA’s strongest man and women (states)
3 months away and the next qualifier is roughly 2 months. Goal is to compete at the qualifier then qualify for states. Looked at last years events for states and think I can put up a score on every event by then.
1 Like
If you push yourself all the way up and protract your shoulder blades then you’ll train the serratus anterior muscle. 1) this looks awesome when it’s developed and you’re lean enough to see it. 2) this is good for proper shoulder movement and helps prevent that “winged” scapula look.
Balance should always be a concern or guideline, but I actually don’t think this would be terrible for shoulder health. The only balance issues you need to worry about are with your rotator cuff. Shoulder injuries occur when your shoulder blades don’t move right. I don’t think the delts have much to do with that (except when they’re compensating for a weakness).
And talk to your coach. Push ups can fatigue your core and that could adversely affect your other training - even leg day.
1 Like
Yeah, hes added a bunch of Shoulder hypertrophy stuff so il see how that goes for now. my chest is small but it doesnt matter for strongman (Upper chest does) my coach doesnt do any chest work whatsoever and push pressed 150kg for a double the other day, and has the world record axle press u90kg with 166kg so I dont think training chest is necessary lol. Upper chest for log maybe, as well as benching for triceps is all I could think of.
2 Likes
Studies have repeatedly failed to show a correlation between “muscle imbalances” and injury risk. It making no sense would be due to the folk models and misinformed professionals telling you otherwise. Your body is not mechanical, it’s biological: it’ll adapt to the demands placed upon it. That being said, being strong in itself reduces the risk of injury.
Going through shoulder rehab has enlightened me a bit. I think shoulder injuries are caused by weaknesses in the rotator cuff muscles, teres minor, rhomboids, and traps. If you elevate your shoulders when you row then you’re using the wrong muscles - bigger muscles instead of the smaller ones. Winging scaps is also bad.
Ignoring these things is probably what leads to injury. I don’t think they care about how much pressing or pulling you do. They just need to be strong and be used appropriately.
The pressing vs pulling balance debate might be more applicable to physique.
1 Like
Actually, no. Here’s a post about that Trust me I’m a Physiotherapist on Instagram: "Great post by Ben Cormack @corkinetic 😊👍 “MAGIC MUSCLES ♦️ They just don’t exist, sorry 😐 ♦️ So many exercises are focused on a specific muscle & it’s supposed function ♦️ Does it work like this? ♦️ NOPE” . You can learn more from Ben Cormack through his lectures @trustme_ed 😊👍"
Here is another post from the same guy. I really recommend reading through his page to get a better idea of injuries and pain
https://www.instagram.com/p/B0xf9gviBr_/?igshid=1vllto15swlr8
Scapular winging does not correlate with injury risk or shoulder pain. In fact, the rehab protocols that are used to get rid of the pain in patients with scapular winging do help with the pain but the way the scapula moves does not change. (aka. It is still winged but the patient has no More pain. Why? Because it is a natural movement pattern and it does not cause pain in itself)
Poor loading management and bad luck leads to injury. Stuff aside from that doesn’t really have a backing.
Yeah, definitely. And even there a lot depends on how easily those muscles grow compared to each other on a given individual. For example, I have to do a lot more to get my triceps growing compared to the amount of work my biceps need.
1 Like
@danteism @simo74 I agree with @Frank_C
Muscle imabalances aren’t going to cause injury, but they become injurious if the relative tightness of muscles prevents you from achieving good positions.
Tight pecs → protracted scaps + rounded shoulders → flexed T-Spine → inability to upwardly rotate scapula → inability to clear subacromial space → impingement
Or,
Tight hip internal rotators → inability to externally rotate at the hip → inability to clear pelvis into a squat with upright torso → potential knee valgus + potential SI shear
1 Like
Muscle tightness is a subjective experience. In fact, people with larger accesible ROM report higher amount of experienced tightness
Here is am article about stiffness, I strongly suggest you read it.
Also do check out the instagram links In my last post, they will show you the flaw In those examples you gave. And even if those things lead to each other, your body as a biological being would adapt to the accordingly. The body is not a machine and thus there is no bad ways to move that will break you immediately. Apart from if someone was to, say, twist your leg 360 degrees, but that is not a way to move.
Edit.
Just to be clear, I’m not trying to attack you as a person, I’m just trying to do my part In increasing people’s knowledge about movement, pain and injury, as most folks understanding of the se things is very mechanical and outdated by decades.
I definitely will, this is an interesting discussion. I already looked at the insta post and it seemed decent, I’ll look at the study when I get to uni
Good point, a better term for me to have used would have been “chronic shortening” of the muscle, or “ROM restriction”, which is an objective experience. Going back to the Pec example, if an individual has chronically shortened pecs, they may be unable to upwardly rotate their scaps if they lack muscular control of their scaps. I will say that the ensuing impingement would be due to poor muscular control of traps/serratus anterior etc. so I do see your point about imbalances not being directly injurious
I do agree, but your point is talking about acute injuries. The body does have structures which can be quite easily damaged by moving through bad movement patterns repeatedly. The question here is whether or not muscle “imbalances” can cause these bad movement patterns
Hey man, I absolutely understand, I hope I’m not coming across as just wanting to start an argument. I find this topic really interesting and I’m just trying to understand other points of view.
Thinking about this more, I agree with you: muscular imbalances (which in fairness is a poorly defined term regardless) do not cause injury. However, I still feel that they can lead to chronic shortening of muscles and restrictions of ROM which can lead to bad positioning in the gym. It’s those bad positions that cause injury over time, not necessarily imbalances, tightness or poor posture.
1 Like
In my experiment of 1 person (myself). Sitting at a desk all day combined with motorbike accidents have had a much bigger impact on imbalances and ROM then doing a few push ups each day. I still don’t buy it.
I do agree that additional fatigue may not fit his program or could contribute to other problems, but again given his strongman program has little to no bench work I don’t see a few push ups as a problem.
Which makes sense, you spend 8 hours a day at a desk and all up probably wouldn’t to more than 30minutes a week of actual pressing.
It’s worth noting too that eccentric loading actually increases muscle length
I got nothing from that second link. It appears to be aimed at general populations. None of that proved my opinions wrong. I not arguing they’re 100% correct, but I didn’t read anything to disprove them.
Studying people without pain and noticing they have different posture is not conclusive. I don’t think everyone needs to be “corrected” and forced to have the same posture, but saying that choosing a specific spinal alignment or bracing is unnecessary when lifting an object is reckless.
That post talked about the use of language and fear. It sounds like the big is beautiful movement for spinal health.
I may have missed something on the first link, but I saw nothing about the shoulder.
I looked up the actual study and fail to see how that’s applicable to people who exercise or lift. It’s too big to read on my phone so I’ll dig into it more tomorrow from a PC. For everyone else, here’s the intro:
Posture is a frequent topic of discussion for patients, clinicians, the media, and society. A common belief is that spinal pain is caused by sitting, standing, or bending “incorrectly.” Despite the absence of strong evidence to support these common beliefs, a large posture industry has flourished, with many interventions and products claiming to “correct” posture and prevent pain. Unfortunately, many health care professionals provide advice in line with this non–evidence-based perspective. In this Viewpoint, the authors reflect on common beliefs regarding posture and spinal health and why they are so widely held, and consider how clinicians can positively influence these beliefs. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther 2019;49(8):562–564. doi:10.2519/jospt.2019.0610
2 Likes
Todays training
Read the workout wrong… was meant to be a huge giant set
Paused dead
2×5 120kg
,deadlift
4×5:120
Also widened my stance, felt way better.
Leg curls 6×5 50kg
Back extension 8×5 5kg
Was meant to do all of the exercises in a row then 3-5 mins rest- repeat 5 times but I did them all individually because I’m retarded lol.
4 Likes
I know why everything feels better with a wider stance… squatting, pressing and now deadlifting. My mobility is trash! I already knew this but I didnt know that was the cause. I just looked at videos of my other deadlifts with a closer stance and it seems I struggle to get into position. I also cant have my feet to close together on like overhead press because my hips are tight
The second link was more of a thought provoking argument than anything else
You haven’t really proven your opinions to be right In the first place
Actually it does show that different motor patterns and ways to move and to be are alright and can exist without pain and injury, and that seemingly perfect motor patterns and posture can exist with pain and injuries. And vice versa of course
Why is it reckless when there is nothing that backs up the argument that a “poor” lifting technique leads to injury? Your body is not a machine, movement on itself does not break it. Poor load management and bad luck does.
The optimal technique for lifting the Lost amount of weight is another story though, as leverages are a very real thing.
Pain is a biopsychosocial experience, which means that psychology and the way we talk about pain really does matter.
Yeah, the post In itself is about the hip. But the point stands: there are no magic muscles In the shoulders either. Now I want to point out that at no point have I said you can’t train your rotator cuff, or that rotator cuff strength is bad. We know that better hamstring strenght (note: not the hamstring /quad balance, But hamstring strenght In itself) reduces the possibility of knee injuries and hamstring strains, so saying that increasing rotator cuff strenght couldn’t possibly do the same for shoulder would be stupid. That being said, duke does a fuckload of rotator cuff work and more probably won’t benefit him too much.
Just a reminder that we are still the same species, despite all those bodybuilders claiming to be a different breed.
I’m speaking from my n=1 experience. I used the word “opinions” for a reason. Just as I haven’t found anything other than my personal experiences to “prove” my stance, no one has provided anything to disprove them, either. And they don’t have to; we’re talking about training here. Different strokes for different folks.
This is a training forum so I apply the information to this particular field. It would be silly to tell someone that spinal alignment and bracing haven’t been proven to prevent injuries so feel free to do whatever you want on those deadlifts. I think we all want to train for the long haul, so just because a person can do something without getting hurt doesn’t mean they should. Stress something enough and eventually it might just break.
This is the context in which I’m reading all of this.
From my experience, the rotator cuff muscles can be pretty magical. When they work correctly then life is good. When they don’t, then one can have impingement. That’s uncomfortable at best and changes movement patterns and leads to injury at worst.
I’m not saying anyone has to worry about throwing in a rotator cuff specific training program. My original post to Duke was about the possible positive effect of adding push ups to his program, even though it’s more pressing. @flatsfarmer has spent a great deal of time helping others with shoulder dysfunction. Part of his thread addressed scapular winging and how working on protraction (the serratus) can help that.
I’ve recently spoke with a couple people who had shoulder pain and dysfunction. They had surgery to correct it and the doctors have seen signs of old, ignored injuries/trauma. These people thought they were fine or thought they had a minor issue, but it has proven to have lifelong ramifications.
One may not need to have perfect synergy in the muscles throughout the shoulder girdle to perform well. But if one wants to perform well for life, then it might be in their best interest to make sure they’re body is working correctly. Ignoring improper firing patterns can destroy a joint. It might not be noticed until a person is in their 40’s, 50’s, or later, but once the joint is damaged enough, there’s no fixing it.
Careful, young man. Mobility is an admiral pursuit, but make sure you’re pursuing mobility and not forcing yourself into positions for which you weren’t made. I’m sure you’ve seen the videos, but finding your squat stance is important. Don’t worry about what others are doing. Figure out what works best for your body.
As stated above, my n=1 experience is all I have to go on, but my hip joint is not made to do certain things. I never thought about that and just tried to do what everyone else does, but my hip surgery revealed damage to the head of my femur (cartilage) and the torn hip labrum kind of speaks for itself.
Work on mobility, but don’t force it.
Here’s the video someone shared with me recently.
I give you that.
I did give you two posts and an article. Barbell Medicine also has a four part article about shoulder issues that you should check out. I’m pretty sure I can’t link them here
It may, but it may also break with “perfect” technique. As I have said multiple times, you body is not a machine, biological beings adapt to the stress they face and thus movement is not harmful.
Impingement is a poor term, and mechanical impingement doesn’t exist. Read parts 2 and 3 of the articles I mentioned earlier on this post. Changes is movement patterns are due to your body, as a biological being, adapting to external stress and they have not been proven to cause injuries.
Part one of the article series is about scapular winging, and as said before, the movement pattern of the scapula doesn’t cause the pain or change (on most cases) with treatment
Placebo is actually as effective as surgery is In most cases. You’ll find that out as well when you read the articles.
Here is a video about placebo and surgery
Tell me how they were not fine if they had no limitations In movement and no pain? The doctors did them a disservice by telling them about these “injuries”. Pain appearing soon after hearing these things would most likely be due to aknowleding them, as pain is a biopsychosocial experience.
When we talk about movement there is no right or wrong. See instagram post 2.
There is literally zero proof for this. Once again, your body is not a machine.
well, Eddie Hall has the World record for Axle press for any weight class, and he highly recommends a lot of chest work/bench pressing.
The point being, it’s not necessary for everyone, but it certainly helps a lot of people.
Does your coach jerk the axle or does he push press it? If he jerks it, that could very well be the reason why he doesn’t emphasize chest-specific work for overhead pressing.
My coach is a US national champion in strongman, and high level international competitor in the same weight class as your coach, and he also has me doing plenty of chest work. Based on my experience and things I’ve seen in the sport, if your coach is literally doing no chest work, he’s an anomaly. Very few strongmen agree with that approach.
Just wanted to provide some perspective for ya since you’re still pretty new to this. It’s awesome that you have such a high level coach, btw. Very great to have a resource like that early on. I only started with my coach last year.
2 Likes
I think its pretty obvious to dudes who have been around for awhile that you’re completely right. My personal experience totally supports what you’re saying.
Anyone who’s been around a specific sport knows that there are particular acute and chronic injuries associated with that sport. Any baseball pitchers knows about shoulder and elbow problems. Any wrestler knows about that Sgt Slaughter knee condition. Some injuries are so linked to the sport, that’s what they call it (Golfers Elbow, Jumpers Knee, etc, etc).
But how do you prove it in a study? To stay with baseball pitchers, we know that young dudes have elbow problems because of faulty mechanics and overuse. And it’s worse when they throw certain pitches that really challenge/tax the elbow joint. There’s even a specific surgery for the specific damage they do to their elbows. But there’s “no evidence” that curve balls hurt anybody.
1 Like