Rippetoes and Lacking Muscle Growth/Stimulation

Training Competitive Bodybuilding
41

[quote]aurnob wrote:

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Stop all this nonsense and just do a traditional bodybuilding program.[/quote]

Thank you.

For God’s sake, why does everyone need to be spoon fed what numbers they’re “supposed” to be lifting? Good idea OP, take a program that doesn’t let you get acclimated to your body’s strengths and weaknesses at all, see poor results, and then switch to another one. Let us know how that works out for you.

And for the record yes, I am 100% against 5/3/1… because it’s not a goddamn bodybuilding routine no matter how it’s broken down.[/quote]

ok
[/quote]

sarcasm^

[/quote]

Not really. I think it works well if you tailor it to your needs. I don’t need someone to tell me it doesn’t work, when clearly it has. I’m bigger, stronger, and sexier.

42

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Stop all this nonsense and just do a traditional bodybuilding program.[/quote]

Thank you.

For God’s sake, why does everyone need to be spoon fed what numbers they’re “supposed” to be lifting? Good idea OP, take a program that doesn’t let you get acclimated to your body’s strengths and weaknesses at all, see poor results, and then switch to another one. Let us know how that works out for you.

And for the record yes, I am 100% against 5/3/1… because it’s not a goddamn bodybuilding routine no matter how it’s broken down.[/quote]

Disagree with you buddy, not entirely but I think you can make it work fine.

A lot of people don’t like to think for themselves, I used to be one of those guys surfing the web for programs. I would generally try something and find myself back to where I was before hand. I train based on how my body responds to training and I know my body best. But I guess if I were a lazy individual I’d enjoy being spoon fed and we have plenty of those type of programs, not saying they don’t work but I don’t think anyone will achieve out of this world results, blindly following other peoples programs and not training based on their own needs.

But, 5/3/1 is a pretty basic strength progression program which is what getting bigger and stronger is all about. Keep shooting for PRs…it has you hitting failure in all different rep ranges changing weekly. Accessory lifts are picked based on lagging bodyparts and weaknesses. I think the 5/3/1 philosophy isn’t a bad one for getting bigger and stronger, it’s pretty much the basics for all bodybuilding and strength routines.[/quote]

Yeah I can dig it dude. I had actually edited my post a bit to make it seem less “black and white” but missed that part.

Regardless, I don’t think an arbitrary percentage through calculations should dictate how much weight you decide to lift on a particular day is all I’m saying.[/quote]

I can appreciate that. Honestly, I don’t always follow it verbatim. If I’m feeling strong on a particular day, I’ll do more reps or do more weight then what was the “goal”. I’m all for finding out what works, but there is nothing wrong with having a guideline either.

43

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Stop all this nonsense and just do a traditional bodybuilding program.[/quote]

Thank you.

For God’s sake, why does everyone need to be spoon fed what numbers they’re “supposed” to be lifting? Good idea OP, take a program that doesn’t let you get acclimated to your body’s strengths and weaknesses at all, see poor results, and then switch to another one. Let us know how that works out for you.

And for the record yes, I am 100% against 5/3/1… because it’s not a goddamn bodybuilding routine no matter how it’s broken down.[/quote]

Disagree with you buddy, not entirely but I think you can make it work fine.

A lot of people don’t like to think for themselves, I used to be one of those guys surfing the web for programs. I would generally try something and find myself back to where I was before hand. I train based on how my body responds to training and I know my body best. But I guess if I were a lazy individual I’d enjoy being spoon fed and we have plenty of those type of programs, not saying they don’t work but I don’t think anyone will achieve out of this world results, blindly following other peoples programs and not training based on their own needs.

But, 5/3/1 is a pretty basic strength progression program which is what getting bigger and stronger is all about. Keep shooting for PRs…it has you hitting failure in all different rep ranges changing weekly. Accessory lifts are picked based on lagging bodyparts and weaknesses. I think the 5/3/1 philosophy isn’t a bad one for getting bigger and stronger, it’s pretty much the basics for all bodybuilding and strength routines.[/quote]

Yeah I can dig it dude. I had actually edited my post a bit to make it seem less “black and white” but missed that part.

Regardless, I don’t think an arbitrary percentage through calculations should dictate how much weight you decide to lift on a particular day is all I’m saying.[/quote]

I can appreciate that. Honestly, I don’t always follow it verbatim. If I’m feeling strong on a particular day, I’ll do more reps or do more weight then what was the “goal”. I’m all for finding out what works, but there is nothing wrong with having a guideline either.
[/quote]

“word”

i read the professor x thread, but found he was mainly talking about his current training philosophies, and considering his way more advanced than i am, idk if to take it with a grain of salt now or wat.

44

[quote]aurnob wrote:

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Stop all this nonsense and just do a traditional bodybuilding program.[/quote]

Thank you.

For God’s sake, why does everyone need to be spoon fed what numbers they’re “supposed” to be lifting? Good idea OP, take a program that doesn’t let you get acclimated to your body’s strengths and weaknesses at all, see poor results, and then switch to another one. Let us know how that works out for you.

And for the record yes, I am 100% against 5/3/1… because it’s not a goddamn bodybuilding routine no matter how it’s broken down.[/quote]

Disagree with you buddy, not entirely but I think you can make it work fine.

A lot of people don’t like to think for themselves, I used to be one of those guys surfing the web for programs. I would generally try something and find myself back to where I was before hand. I train based on how my body responds to training and I know my body best. But I guess if I were a lazy individual I’d enjoy being spoon fed and we have plenty of those type of programs, not saying they don’t work but I don’t think anyone will achieve out of this world results, blindly following other peoples programs and not training based on their own needs.

But, 5/3/1 is a pretty basic strength progression program which is what getting bigger and stronger is all about. Keep shooting for PRs…it has you hitting failure in all different rep ranges changing weekly. Accessory lifts are picked based on lagging bodyparts and weaknesses. I think the 5/3/1 philosophy isn’t a bad one for getting bigger and stronger, it’s pretty much the basics for all bodybuilding and strength routines.[/quote]

Yeah I can dig it dude. I had actually edited my post a bit to make it seem less “black and white” but missed that part.

Regardless, I don’t think an arbitrary percentage through calculations should dictate how much weight you decide to lift on a particular day is all I’m saying.[/quote]

I can appreciate that. Honestly, I don’t always follow it verbatim. If I’m feeling strong on a particular day, I’ll do more reps or do more weight then what was the “goal”. I’m all for finding out what works, but there is nothing wrong with having a guideline either.
[/quote]

“word”

i read the professor x thread, but found he was mainly talking about his current training philosophies, and considering his way more advanced than i am, idk if to take it with a grain of salt now or wat.[/quote]

What you read there is standard BB training, no need to add salt.

45

If I could go back in time to when I was around your age & wanting to bulk-up, the best advice I’d would give myself would be to foucus mainly on building strength + eating significantly more.

How best to achieve ‘more strength’ IMO is far less important than how much more strength you achieve & how quickly you achieve it.

For me at least, traditional bb’in set/rep schemes just left me feeling frustrated to be honest, (they made me FEEL like I was getting in a great work-out, intuitively), though they never seemed to give me the results I wanted (basically, they gave me a great pumped-up feeling, though the rate at which I was able to add more weight to the bar was pretty pitiful).

^^^^NB: My height was almost certainly a factor in this (I’m nearly 6ft 6, though, what I’m saying may still be applicable to you though, given thay you are new to the iron.

So, with this in mind…my advice to you would be add at least another 20-40% more weight to the bar on all of your main lifts & then consider switching to of a more traditional BB’ing split.

46

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
If I could go back in time to when I was around your age & wanting to bulk-up, the best advice I’d would give myself would be to foucus mainly on building strength + eating significantly more.

For me at least, traditional bb’in set/rep schemes just left me feeling frustrated to be honest, (they made me FEEL like I was getting in a great work-out, intuitively), though they never seemed to give me the results I wanted (basically, they gave me a great pumped-up feeling, though the rate at which I was able to add more weight to the bar was pretty pitiful).

^^^^NB: My height was almost certainly a factor in this (I’m nearly 6ft 6, though, what I’m saying may still be applicable to you though, given thay you are new to the iron.

So, with this in mind…my advice to you would be add at least another 20-40% more weight to the bar on all of your main lifts & then consider switching to of a more traditional BB’ing split.
[/quote]

Fixed

47

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
So, with this in mind…my advice to you would be add at least another 20-40% more weight to the bar on all of your main lifts & then consider switching to of a more traditional BB’ing split.
[/quote]

No offence, but I wouldn’t say that the OP NEEDS an upper/lower split…the type given to newbies who can barely even squat their own bodyweight.

For his bodyweight and training age, his lifts aren’t that bad.

Sure, further progression is the name of the game, but I think the OPs problem is his lack of bodybuilding, not strength progression per se. It’s lack of body part focus.

48

[quote]aurnob wrote:

“word”

i read the professor x thread, but found he was mainly talking about his current training philosophies, and considering his way more advanced than i am, idk if to take it with a grain of salt now or wat.[/quote]

The main difference between advanced bodybuilders and non advanced is:

A) Splits are usually “more split”. Strength has gotten to the level where recovery demands and intensity in the workout are so high that they may need more rest between training bodyparts and less bodyparts trained per session.

B) More machines are often used for the sake of safety (no spotters with high loads etc).

C) Some bodyparts are given more focus (routine has “evolved”) to bring them up.

Point A is probably more related to genetics than strength level alone (e.g. many stick to at least 2-3 exercises per bodypart for most of their training), but still, it often changes at least a little bit over time depending on results.

49

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
So, with this in mind…my advice to you would be add at least another 20-40% more weight to the bar on all of your main lifts & then consider switching to of a more traditional BB’ing split.
[/quote]

No offence, but I wouldn’t say that the OP NEEDS an upper/lower split…the type given to newbies who can barely even squat their own bodyweight.

For his bodyweight and training age, his lifts aren’t that bad.

Sure, further progression is the name of the game, but I think the OPs problem is his lack of bodybuilding, not strength progression per se. It’s lack of body part focus.[/quote]

Fair points.

Espeially with regards the ‘more split up’ point.

I was thinking more specifically in terms as of the usual prescribed set/schemes bodybuilding are given.

I’m sure in time the OP can figure out what kind of scheme works best for him in relation to his goals (with a lil experimentation along the way).

50

If working out 4 days each week is a stretch for you, and you only care to stay on programs for “a couple weeks” before “gauging progress” (what exactly are you expecting after 2 weeks?), then I don’t think you’re going to be very successful at bodybuilding.

The routine you posted doesn’t look like something I’d use to build my body up. Why are you struggling so hard to avoid doing a regular old bodybuilding routine?

51

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
So, with this in mind…my advice to you would be add at least another 20-40% more weight to the bar on all of your main lifts & then consider switching to of a more traditional BB’ing split.
[/quote]

No offence, but I wouldn’t say that the OP NEEDS an upper/lower split…the type given to newbies who can barely even squat their own bodyweight.

For his bodyweight and training age, his lifts aren’t that bad.

Sure, further progression is the name of the game, but I think the OPs problem is his lack of bodybuilding, not strength progression per se. It’s lack of body part focus.[/quote]

Fair points.

Espeially with regards the ‘more split up’ point.

I was thinking more specifically in terms as of the usual prescribed set/schemes bodybuilding are given.

I’m sure in time the OP can figure out what kind of scheme works best for him in relation to his goals (with a lil experimentation along the way). [/quote]

Yeah I’ve never responded too greatly to the older recommendations (often the volume would be somewhere in the region of 4-5 straight sets/exercise and tons of exercises)…but I reckon that sort of training is phasing out now (or moreso on T-Nation). I think it’s more popular working up to just a failure set or two and that’s it.

Then you do get the high volume group. Not saying that either is wrong, just depends what works for you.

52

[quote]mr popular wrote:
The routine you posted doesn’t look like something I’d use to build my body up. Why are you struggling so hard to avoid doing a regular old bodybuilding routine?[/quote]

Save yer breath. OP is avoiding any kind of advice like this, for whatever reason.

Let him do whatever he feels best. We might see him back in two years talking about the fantastic progress he’s made…

…or another thread about not growing.

My money is on one of them, care to guess which?

53

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:
The routine you posted doesn’t look like something I’d use to build my body up. Why are you struggling so hard to avoid doing a regular old bodybuilding routine?[/quote]

Save yer breath. OP is avoiding any kind of advice like this, for whatever reason.

Let him do whatever he feels best. We might see him back in two years talking about the fantastic progress he’s made…

…or another thread about not growing.

My money is on one of them, care to guess which?[/quote]

so basically all you guys are suggesting i should do a more split up routine (eg. chest/back, legs, arms, shoulders) instead of upper lower twice a week.

54

[quote]mr popular wrote:
If working out 4 days each week is a stretch for you, and you only care to stay on programs for “a couple weeks” before “gauging progress” (what exactly are you expecting after 2 weeks?), then I don’t think you’re going to be very successful at bodybuilding.

The routine you posted doesn’t look like something I’d use to build my body up. Why are you struggling so hard to avoid doing a regular old bodybuilding routine?[/quote]

i didnt say two weeks, atleast 1-2 months. i guess we’ll just have to wait and see

55

[quote]aurnob wrote:

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:
The routine you posted doesn’t look like something I’d use to build my body up. Why are you struggling so hard to avoid doing a regular old bodybuilding routine?[/quote]

Save yer breath. OP is avoiding any kind of advice like this, for whatever reason.

Let him do whatever he feels best. We might see him back in two years talking about the fantastic progress he’s made…

…or another thread about not growing.

My money is on one of them, care to guess which?[/quote]

so basically all you guys are suggesting i should do a more split up routine (eg. chest/back, legs, arms, shoulders) instead of upper lower twice a week.
[/quote]

Yep. You should adjust it to whatever your individual strengths and weaknesses are. I know recently my delts were lagging, so I split it up into two separate days so I could put extra volume on them. I’ve adjusted similarly other times as well.

A basic split, like the one you mentioned never hurts to. Just make sure your exercise selection makes sense for everything.

56

[quote]aurnob wrote:

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:
The routine you posted doesn’t look like something I’d use to build my body up. Why are you struggling so hard to avoid doing a regular old bodybuilding routine?[/quote]

Save yer breath. OP is avoiding any kind of advice like this, for whatever reason.

Let him do whatever he feels best. We might see him back in two years talking about the fantastic progress he’s made…

…or another thread about not growing.

My money is on one of them, care to guess which?[/quote]

so basically all you guys are suggesting i should do a more split up routine (eg. chest/back, legs, arms, shoulders) instead of upper lower twice a week.
[/quote]

I’m not even saying that an upper/lower routine is bad, but doing things like goodmornings and “dips x subfailure” and push presses and all this crap just isn’t what bodybuilders do. Pec deck SOMETIMES? Why?

Let me put it to you this way… All of the best backs in the history of bodybuilding have been built with barbell rows, t-bar rows, and chins or pulldowns. All of the best chests have been built with barbell flat and incline benching. All of the best shoulders with seated barbell pressing and dumbbell raises. The best biceps, barbell and dumbbell curls. The best legs have been made with squats, leg curls, and leg presses. Are you catching the drift yet?

The “basics” are basic for a reason. They work 99% of the time for 99% of people if you do them correctly and consistently, with intensity.

If Mr. Olympia came to you and gave you a list of exercises that are the basics of building a physique and said these are the ones that count, do you think it would really matter how you split them up, as long as you got strong at all of them?

57

[quote]mr popular wrote:

Let me put it to you this way… All of the best backs in the history of bodybuilding have been built with barbell rows, t-bar rows, and chins or pulldowns. All of the best chests have been built with barbell flat and incline benching. All of the best shoulders with seated barbell pressing and dumbbell raises. The best biceps, barbell and dumbbell curls. The best legs have been made with squats, leg curls, and leg presses. Are you catching the drift yet?

The “basics” are basic for a reason. They work 99% of the time for 99% of people if you do them correctly and consistently, with intensity.

If Mr. Olympia came to you and gave you a list of exercises that are the basics of building a physique and said these are the ones that count, do you think it would really matter how you split them up, as long as you got strong at all of them?[/quote]

Good post.

58

A GIANT part of the equation is missing. What are you eating and how much?

59

I’m thinking that’s the issue here. Based on the info in his original post, he’s eating about 3000 calories a day, which isn’t even close to what Rippetoe recommends. He should be going for 4000 or 4500 at least. It’s always a bad idea to do only part of a program and then complain about its results.

I’m in the middle of my second Rippetoe’s bulking phase. The first time I went from 175 to 195 in about 6 weeks, and this time so far I’ve gone from 187 to 200 in about 3 weeks. So the program definitely works, as evidenced by my experience and that of many others.

The strange thing is that he said his bodyweight kept increasing even at 3000 calories. My conclusion is that 3000 calories is indeed over maintenance for him, even though it’s not as high as it should be. The excessive fat gain is probably mostly in his head or bloat: I know that’s what happened to me the first time and it’s why pictures and measurements are so important. I remember feeling like a complete fatass all the time and that I was losing a ton of definition, but when you compare my semi-before (180, instead of 175) and semi-after pics (190 instead of 195) from the first time (check out my workout log at “A College Guy’s Rippetoe Experience” to see what I mean), there’s barely any detectable loss in definition. It was all in my head.

I think the OP just got freaked out over nothing and ended up cutting too hard.

60

[quote]peacerenity wrote:
I’m thinking that’s the issue here. Based on the info in his original post, he’s eating about 3000 calories a day, which isn’t even close to what Rippetoe recommends. He should be going for 4000 or 4500 at least. It’s always a bad idea to do only part of a program and then complain about its results.

I’m in the middle of my second Rippetoe’s bulking phase. The first time I went from 175 to 195 in about 6 weeks, and this time so far I’ve gone from 187 to 200 in about 3 weeks. So the program definitely works, as evidenced by my experience and that of many others.

The strange thing is that he said his bodyweight kept increasing even at 3000 calories. My conclusion is that 3000 calories is indeed over maintenance for him, even though it’s not as high as it should be. The excessive fat gain is probably mostly in his head or bloat: I know that’s what happened to me the first time and it’s why pictures and measurements are so important. I remember feeling like a complete fatass all the time and that I was losing a ton of definition, but when you compare my semi-before (180, instead of 175) and semi-after pics (190 instead of 195) from the first time (check out my workout log at “A College Guy’s Rippetoe Experience” to see what I mean), there’s barely any detectable loss in definition. It was all in my head.

I think the OP just got freaked out over nothing and ended up cutting too hard.[/quote]

let me just clear it up. when i was bulking, i was definitely eating within the 4000-5000 calorie range for sure, i used to drink and eat about:

2-3 litres milk a day,
100grams of whey a day
2-3 fruits
LOads of oats and wheats
WHole grain breads
Beef, fish, steak, chicken (dependeent on what mum cooked)
rice
fish oil pills (9-10 a day)
daily multi and joint tablets

And thats not everything i’d eat, itd change on a daily basis due to living at home.

And I went from about 153lbs to about 185lbs using rippetoes for about 6-7 months (discrepancy occured when i injured my legs and they shrinked, and i had to grow them back, otherwise i wouldve been heavier). alot of that was muscle, cause when i started out i was pretty skinny (not that skinny, as i just hadnt trained in ages and was just cutting coz no gym access).

As for the split, I made some minor revisions here and there, as the volume is pretty fkn intense but I’m guessing this is because I as used the slow rippetoes workouts which I’ve been doing for 7-8 months.

As for the workout, it seems to be working and I’m growing like a weed right now, I slowly upped my calories as I exitted a 2 week cut which I basically did for no reason (Shugart’s 100 gram carb cure).

I upped the calories to quickly so I put like a pound of fat on, but my arms are growing like crazy and so is everything else, and I’m starting to get the hang of listening to your body.

Right now, I’m eating about 3500-4000 calories, and I’ll try to up it more but I will do it gradually as to elicit the leas fat gains.

Eg. I can tell if I have worked a body part hard enough or if I should just give up.

And I’m sorry about push presses, but I feel them really well in my shoulders as I really slow the eccentric down and its really quite intense in my shoulders. But the majority of my workout is based on the exercise which “mr popular” outlined, except for a few which I can change when the time comes.