RIP Europe

[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:
orion wrote:
toddjacobs13 wrote:

As I have stated before, with the rise of Kemal Ataturk more than 80 years ago, Turkey embarked on a political movement that resembles France’s more so than, say, Nazi Germany or most of Eastern Europe, particularly Austria.

Todd

???

“The ideological foundation of Atat?rk’s reform program became known as Kemalism. Its main points were enumerated in the “Six Arrows” of Kemalism: republicanism, nationalism, populism, reformism, etatism (statism), and secularism.”

That kind of reminds me of French ideals of Liberty, Equality, and Brotherhood. Ataturk’s ideals were implemented in 1923 and have survived several attempts at revolution since his death in 1938. In 1980, the military declared martial law defused fundamentalist movements within Turkey and then, relatively, peacefully handed authority back to the Turkish government.

As for Austria, two words: Joerg Haider.[/quote]

I have no idea what you think Joerg Haider is, or how he fits into Austrias political landscape.

BUT, I do have the feeling that you have no idea how complex that problem really is.

He never got more than one third of the votes anyway so even if he was extra-evil, only a minority of Austrians approved of his sinister ways. So, the worst thing you could claim is that we have our fair share of idiots and opportunists.

So what?

— edit: he did get more than 40% in carinthia, a southern Austrian province. Never more than 30 % on a national level though.—

[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:

The whole Caucasian culture argument is also ludicrous from another standpoint in that it assumes common ancestral origins for all European countries.

[/quote]

Of course there is a common ancestral origin for all Europeans (ahhh Europe! we were there since the ice sheet retreated).

To deny this would be the same as denying that Jews do not have a common ancestral origin in the Holy Land.

[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:

I wonder how many Greeks living in Greece would gladly embrace the term Caucasian. In ancient Greece, it was common practice to sail into the Black Sea and capture members of tribes living in the Caucasus and enslave them. This is where we get the term “Slav.”

Todd
[/quote]

The English word for slave does come from the treatment of the Slavs of Europe except you are wrong in terms of time and place. Considering that during ancient times (i.e. pre 400 AD/fall of Rome) the Slavs had not yet entered recorded history and the area around the black sea was inhabited by Germanic tribes (i.e. the Goths) in the North, Thracians in the West and farther to the East, Armenians the English word for slave did not come about from the Greeks treatment of the Slavs boarding the Black Sea during ancient times.

Where it did come from was the Mongols and their Turkic cousins (same language family, same ancient homeland in Mongolia) treatment of the Slavs in the Middle Ages and up to modern times. For example Turks would burst into a Slavic village in the Balkans kill the adults and sell the children of as slaves. The girls would be sent to be raped in the harems while the boys would be castrated and turned into slaves that ran the Turkish realm (e.g. the feared Janissaries were castrated Slavic boys turned into solders by the Turks). A modern day echo of this might be the white slave trade (i.e. forced prostitution) being centred on Albania and Kosovo (regions heavily influenced by invading Turks).

But you are right Caucasian is a poor term. European, Western, also confuse as they describe geography and not people.

Freedom of speech Turk style, speak the truth (i.e. historical facts) go to jail:

Turkey sentences Armenian writer

Journalists have raised concerns about aspects of the penal reforms
A journalist in Turkey has been found guilty of insulting Turkish identity and given a suspended six-month jail sentence by a court in Istanbul.
Hrant Dink, of Armenian-Turkish descent, wrote a newspaper column which he argued was aimed at improving relations between Turkey and Armenia.

The prosecution interpreted one part as an insult, but Mr Dink has said he will appeal against the ruling.

The verdict follows criminal code reforms as Turkey seeks to join the EU.

The reforms were intended to improve freedom of speech in Turkey.

The article written by Mr Dink addressed the killings of hundreds of thousands of Armenians during Ottoman rule in 1917.

Armenians, supported by several countries, want Turkey to recognise the events as a genocide. Turkey rejects that description, saying the deaths occurred in a civil war in which many Turks were also killed.

Humiliation

A paragraph in the article calling on Armenians to symbolically reject “the adulterated part of their Turkish blood” was taken as offensive.

If I’m guilty of insulting a nation then it’s a matter of honour not to live here

Hrant Dink

The judge ruled that Mr Dink’s newspaper column implied that Turkish blood was dirty.

He is the editor of a bilingual Armenian-Turkish newspaper, Agos.

The BBC’s Sarah Rainsford said the judge ordered a suspended sentence as it was Mr Dink’s first offence.

But the nationalist lawyers who brought the case were disappointed.

“There was an obvious humiliation and result of this case should be at least two and a half years or three years criminal charge,” one said.

“But I think that Turkish courts are under big pressure due to these European Union accession talks.”

‘No crime’

Mr Dink’s lawyer Fethiye Cetin said the ruling showed how little had changed under Turkey’s new criminal code, despite international and internal pressure.

“There was no crime here,” she told the BBC. “We expected our client to get off.”

Our correspondent says human rights lawyers believe his case shows there are still no-go areas for discussion here and the new laws leave substantial room for interpretation.

Mr Dink says he will appeal against the ruling. But if he cannot clear his name, he will leave the country.

“If I’m guilty of insulting a nation,” he told the BBC, “then it’s a matter of honour not to live here.”

[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:
orion wrote:
toddjacobs13 wrote:

more so than, say, Nazi Germany or most of Eastern Europe, particularly Austria.

As for Austria, two words: Joerg Haider.[/quote]

Is your argument so weak that your have to denounce anyone that does not agree with you as a Nazi?

Joerg Haider, Pim Fortuyn or any one else who seeks to protect there way of life that is at risk from invasion/immigration (same result, the supplanting of the native population) is not a Nazi, they are just trying to protect what they cherish.

[quote]bluey wrote:
toddjacobs13 wrote:
orion wrote:
toddjacobs13 wrote:

more so than, say, Nazi Germany or most of Eastern Europe, particularly Austria.

As for Austria, two words: Joerg Haider.

Is your argument so weak that your have to denounce anyone that does not agree with you as a Nazi?

Joerg Haider, Pim Fortuyn or any one else who seeks to protect there way of life that is at risk from invasion/immigration (same result, the supplanting of the native population) is not a Nazi, they are just trying to protect what they cherish.
[/quote]

I didn’t call anyone a Nazi. I merely stated that Nazi Germany occurred in Europe, big difference. The divisions from country to country and culture to culture within Europe are sharp. So sharp, in fact, that the countries of Europe have been at war with each other very frequently for hundreds of years. Using the argument that Turkey has fought wars with sections of southeast Europe to support the idea that Turkey is “not European” is ridiculous.

Turkey is an emerging power. Turkey embarked on a journey toward modernization 80 years ago, that some “more traditional European” countries have yet to initiate. This has been borne out by history, by the current situation, and by my own personal experiences with Turks. I have little doubt that this is a driving consideration as the EU prepares to consider adding Turkey to their union.

The biology argument is bunk. The culture argument is bunk. The Hellenic culture and Christianity shaped by Rome argument is just plain silly. Turkey is a part of Europe. It is clear to me that the Turks think so and also that Europeans think so. That’s pretty much all that matters.

I stand corrected on the exact origins of the word “Slave.” However, the point remains the same.

If you can state that Turkey should join the EU, where will you stop?

Why not Iraq? Seriously the same logic that you apply to Turkey can be applied to Iraq (plus they have oil which to pardon the pun should grease the wheels). After all they had a moderniser as well, Saddam sort to distance his country from its traditional roots.

After that why not Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan? After all these are all Turkish nations if Turkey is European then these nations are too.

With a straight face can you honestly say that if put to a referendum “Should Turkey join the EU?” Europeans would vote for it? Of course not, thus the elite will never allow an honest vote to take place on it (or any other issue of any merit e.g. immigration).

“public opinion in most EU countries appears, with varying degrees of intensity, to oppose Turkish membership.”

Where is your democratic mandate for Turkey to join the EU? It is a pretty sure sign that Europeans do not regard Turkey as European when the vast majority of them oppose Turkey?s EU membership.

Why do the elites continue to disregard their peoples wishes?

Why do unelected media and business interests believe they can dictate to everybody else?

Analysis: EU views on Turkish bid
By Jan Repa
BBC Europe analyst

Istanbul: Big reforms are required for Turkey to join the EU
Most EU countries officially welcome the prospect of Turkish membership: albeit at least a decade from now and subject to consistent evidence of Turkey’s commitment to democratic values.

In contrast, public opinion in most EU countries appears, with varying degrees of intensity, to oppose Turkish membership.

Reasons cited for opposition include: Turkey’s large population (70 million and rising fast); its relative poverty and doubts about its cultural compatibility with Europe. The French, Germans and Austrians seem especially unhappy with the idea.

Here is a breakdown of attitudes in some of the EU member states:

GERMANY: Opinion polls say up to three-quarters of the population oppose Turkish membership. Of the two largest political parties, the Social Democrats (SPD) say they want a “modern Turkey in the EU”; the Christian Democrats (CDU) oppose membership - proposing instead a “privileged partnership”. Angela Merkel - the CDU candidate for chancellor - has appealed to EU leaders not to “encourage” Turkey.

FRANCE: Has the largest percentage of Muslims (7%) in the EU. Officially backs Turkey’s membership bid. But Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin says Turkey must first recognise Cyprus. However, Nicolas Sarkozy - leader of the ruling UMP party and likely future presidential candidate - is opposed. Only 20% of public opinion says Yes to Turkey joining. A leading political pundit, Guillaume Parmentier, says: “The Turkish elite has been European for centuries; but the vast democratic expansion of Turkey involves Anatolian peasants, who are not European by culture, tradition or habit”. The French have been promised a referendum after the conclusion of negotiations.

AUSTRIA: Opinion polls show 75% of 15-24 year-olds opposed to Turkish membership; rising to 82% among people over 55. This is the highest No rating in the EU.

NETHERLANDS: Has the EU’s second largest Muslim population in terms of percentage (6%) after France - and is struggling to cope with the issues of religion, immigration and integration - particularly after the murder of film-maker Theo van Gogh. Remains strongly divided over Turkey.

BRITAIN: An enthusiastic supporter of Turkish membership. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says Turkey in the EU would become “a beacon of democracy and modernity”; and a Muslim country providing “a shining example across the whole of its neighbouring region” - ie the Arab world. Turkish membership would disprove the “clash of civilisations” theory.

ITALY: Another strong supporter of Turkish membership. The government stresses historical links between Italy and the “Near East”; the need to “anchor” Turkey in the West; and the commercial opportunities offered by the Turkish market. Public opinion, while not particularly hostile, appears less enthusiastic - actual support for Turkish membership standing at below 40%.

POLAND: The largest of the 10 “new” EU members, who joined in May 2004 - with more than half of their combined population. 54% of the public support Turkish membership. Officials say Turkey would strengthen pro-American attitudes within the EU and consolidate Western influence on the approaches to the Middle East and the Caucasus. Poles also cite a history of close bilateral relations going back several hundred years.

SPAIN: A poll showed 33% opposing Turkish membership, but 42% in favour - as is the government. Back in June, following the French and Dutch rejection of the EU draft constitution, Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos suggested postponing the Turkish accession talks until a more advantageous time.

GREECE: was under Ottoman occupation for more than 400 years. Some Greeks still regard Istanbul as a “Greek” city. Another country where politicians and public opinion diverge. Opinion polls suggest only 25% of Greeks believe Turkey has a place in the European Union. The government, meanwhile, is keen to resolve bilateral tensions through Turkish integration. But it says the fate of Turkey’s EU application depends, primarily, on the Turks themselves - especially where recognition of Cyprus in concerned. .

HUNGARY: was under Ottoman occupation for 150 years, in the 16th and 17th centuries. But there is little anti-Turkish feeling - around half the population supporting Turkish membership. However, like Austria, Hungary is also pressing the case of neighbouring Croatia: which, according to Foreign Minister Ferenc Somogyi, is “spectacularly further ahead” than Turkey on most accession criteria.

DENMARK: Strong public resistance to Turkish membership. Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen - until recently supportive - has been heard talking of “special partnerships” as well.

SWEDEN: Strong popular resistance. However, the government sees Turkish membership in terms of “supporting Turkey’s reform process and increasing contacts with Turkish society” - as well as Swedish business opportunities.

“Ishtanbul was Constantinople,
now it’s Ishtanbul, not Constantinople,
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That’s nobody’s business but the Turks.”
–They Might Be Giants

toddjacobs13,

now I think I now where this comes from.

Apparently, the “Wall Street Journal” and the “Guardian” both had articles that linked Austrias “no” to our nazi- past.

Sigh…

If those “journalists” would have bothered to check their facts, they would have known that there were two elections in Austria recently and that our government could not afford to move on that issue before those elections.

Orion and all other Austrians,

I have nothing against Austria personally.  I am sure that, if I were to visit Austria, I would find most of the people there to be very friendly.  However, I get the sense that there is a tremendous feeling of xenophobia amongst the majority of the Austrian population.  From what I've read, I have been led to believe that Austria does not have an "open" society.  Austria has also been reticent to secularize its government.  Those are the aspects of Austria that I find troubling.

In no way did I mean to suggest that Austria is by and large supportive of Nazism at this time. I believe that most Austrians view Haider as an extremist (although it is disturbing how many apparently do not). I also recognize that Haider himself is not a Nazi. I recognize that Austria has made tremendous cultural and scientific contributions over the course of history. I am sorry if I have slighted a proud country. I do however, believe that there are some stark contrasts between Austria and the rest of Europe. I believe there has been a trend throughout history that Austria has tended to isolated from both East and West.

Todd