[quote]Bastard wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Israel, you mean America’s unofficial 51 st state?
Can we trade Puerto Rico for Israel? maybe Texas then? damnit …
Bastard[/quote]
Don’t Mess with Texas, you Cali fruit loop.
I think Puerto Rico for Israel would be a nice trade - provided Puerto Rico throws in a couple of first round draft choices to even the deal.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Bastard wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Israel, you mean America’s unofficial 51 st state?
Can we trade Puerto Rico for Israel? maybe Texas then? damnit …
Bastard
Don’t Mess with Texas, you Cali fruit loop.
I think Puerto Rico for Israel would be a nice trade - provided Puerto Rico throws in a couple of first round draft choices to even the deal. [/quote]
And had this been the case up front we would not even have to talk about a draft in the first place.
[quote] but I for one look forward to European Turks financing my pension:-)
[/quote]
Pay for your own pension, don’t sell out your childrens and there childrens future for the sake of keeping a unworkable welfafre state running a little longer.
[quote]TQB wrote:
One small factor might be that Turkey has been in Europe since the 14th century…[/quote]
So what?
Should Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia join the EU (and millions upon millions of migrants move from low wage North Africa to high wage Northern Europe with the help of open EU boarders) since the Arabs and the Moors were in Iberia during the dark ages?
Would Belgium be a better country for YOU AND YOUR FAMILY to live in if it was 90% Arab or Turk? Would the Arabs or the Turks even want or tolerate you there?
Personally i look at the country that the people of a given country have created for themselves. If they have managed to have a slum of a country then this is what they’ll bring and start to create in your back yard if left uncontrolled.
Well the thing is Turkey has been granted a “ticket”. In order to fully became a memeber of EU Turkey will be engaged in several years of hard negotiations. By several it could be as far as 10 to 15 years. The reason is that EU beleives that Turkey can change it’s ways and go EU style… 
The integration of muslim people will be hard as the whole EU is basicly Catolick.
As for my people. The CROATIANS. We finally got the thumb up and hopefully be in the EU by the end of 2007 or begining of 2008. Right when I finish collage.
Turkey is a great place, a little harsh on human rights, and a little corrupt here and there.
90% of the people i have met in Turkey have been very friendly, and liberal.
Passports are difficult to get, so i don’t think europe would need to worry too much about everyone leaving turkey and turning up in London or Paris.
It’s a great place for holidays if you avoid the 18-30 loony clubbers areas
i’m from England so have no bias either way. I think we are pretty keen to get out of Europe at the moment.
I went to Annapolis with quite a few Turkish exchange students. Frankly, I am very surprised by the anti-Turkish sentiments on this board. Turkey is a constitutionally secular state. They have been for about 80 years. They fought as our allies in the Korean War. They have a tremendously high literacy rate. They are, by and large, a very proud people. Turkey is primarily made up of Turkomen and Kurds with a negligible Arab population.
The Turks that I have known personally were more interested in trance music and DVDs than the Koran.
Todd
[quote]
so are the united states, canada, new zealand, and australia part of europe?[/quote]
No, but they are part of the Western World.
Traditionally, yes, there has been one dominant culture in Europe, based on Christianity, which was broadly shared by everyone from Ireland to the Balkans. There are, of course, national cultures and, later, religious disputes, but even seemingly dissimilar European cultures are much more alike than they are different.
I simply fail to see any benefit in importing large numbers of people who are fundamentally different in culture, religion, history, and ethnicity. What could possibly be gained from this, beyond some abstract concept of ‘enrichment’ from ‘diversity’? Historically speaking, different cultures in close proximity produce conflict. Why import conflict?
[quote]
Passports are difficult to get, so i don’t think europe would need to worry too much about everyone leaving turkey and turning up in London or Paris.[/quote]
This is exactly the point – if Turkey joins the EU then passports won’t be hard to get. In fact, they won’t even be necessary. So, I would be very worried indeed about ‘everyone leaving Turkey and turning up in London or Paris.’
[quote]RankHypocrisy wrote:
so are the united states, canada, new zealand, and australia part of europe?
No, but they are part of the Western World.
is there only one culture in europe?
Traditionally, yes, there has been one dominant culture in Europe, based on Christianity, which was broadly shared by everyone from Ireland to the Balkans. There are, of course, national cultures and, later, religious disputes, but even seemingly dissimilar European cultures are much more alike than they are different.
I simply fail to see any benefit in importing large numbers of people who are fundamentally different in culture, religion, history, and ethnicity. What could possibly be gained from this, beyond some abstract concept of ‘enrichment’ from ‘diversity’? Historically speaking, different cultures in close proximity produce conflict. Why import conflict?[/quote]
This is a fundamentally moronic post. Just about every country in Europe has a different ethnicity, history, and religion than every other country. Go fish, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Todd
Kudos on the totally gratuitious personal attack. Extremely classy.
In my original post, I stated that there are differences in culture and ethnicity among European nations; perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension.
That said, all of Europe traditionally has been people by Caucasians whose culture is based on Hellenic civilization and Christianity, and shaped by the Roman Empire. So, despite their differences, they have a fundamentally unity which makes them part of the Western world.
Are you honestly suggesting that the differences between England and Spain are as large as the differences between England and Turkey, or between England and China?
You, sir, are the one who has made the moronic post.
[quote]RankHypocrisy wrote:
This is a fundamentally moronic post. Just about every country in Europe has a different ethnicity, history, and religion than every other country. Go fish, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Todd
Kudos on the totally gratuitious personal attack. Extremely classy.
In my original post, I stated that there are differences in culture and ethnicity among European nations; perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension.
That said, all of Europe traditionally has been people by Caucasians whose culture is based on Hellenic civilization and Christianity, and shaped by the Roman Empire. So, despite their differences, they have a fundamentally unity which makes them part of the Western world.
Are you honestly suggesting that the differences between England and Spain are as large as the differences between England and Turkey, or between England and China?
You, sir, are the one who has made the moronic post.[/quote]
The Roman Empire existed in Turkey for over 1000 years after the fall of Rome. That was called the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantines practiced a form of Christianity called Orthodox Christianity, which is, to this day, the national religion of Greece, which was a part of the Byzantine Empire. So I guess Turkey’s history has also been influenced by Christianity and Greek culture and shaped by the Roman Empire.
Aristotle’s works, the major existing influence of Hellenic culture, survived the dark ages because they were preserved by Moorish scholars in the library at Toledo.
Saying that Turkey should be excluded because its cultural gaps are larger than others that exist within the EU is ridiculous. Finland and the Baltic States don’t have any strong ties to any other members of the EU. Turkey also has long standing relations with Germany, who happened to fight some major wars against France, England, Poland, and Italy all during the last century.
Don’t get all grouchy just because you failed Western Civ.
Oh and by the way, according the the CIA’s website, if Turkey enters the EU, it will be the sixth largest GDP in that union. It’s GDP growth is twice as fast as any other country in the top six as well. How’s that for a reason why the EU is seeking to incorporate Turkey?
I think the moron status still falls squarely on your shoulders, thank you very much.
Todd
[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:
…
Aristotle’s works, the major existing influence of Hellenic culture, survived the dark ages because they were preserved by Moorish scholars in the library at Toledo.
…
[/quote]
Your point about the Byzantine Empire is good although after the fall of the Byzantine Empire, Turkeys cultural divergence from Western Europe appears drastic.
I don’t quite understand what Aristotle, the Moors and Toledo have to do with the culture of Turkey. Are you just trying to illustrate that muslim culture is not barbaric?
[quote]
The Roman Empire existed in Turkey for over 1000 years after the fall of Rome. That was called the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantines practiced a form of Christianity called Orthodox Christianity, which is, to this day, the national religion of Greece, which was a part of the Byzantine Empire. So I guess Turkey’s history has also been influenced by Christianity and Greek culture and shaped by the Roman Empire.[/quote]
The Roman Empire that existed in Asia Minor for 1000 years after the fall of Rome was a Christian (specifically Orthodox), Hellenistic entity. The Oghuz Turks, from farther east in Anatolia, were the founders of the Ottoman Empire, an entity distinct from the Byzantine Empire. The Ottomans were immediately expansionist, moving first into the Balkans in the 14th century, conquering Greece by 1460, and conquering Constantinople in 1453. Constantinople was the last outpost of the Byzantine Empire, and its destruction meant the supplanting of that empire by the Ottomans.
The Ottomans spent much of the next 400 years trying to push ever farther into Europe, laying siege to Vienna as recently as 1683. Greece spent the better part of four centuries under Ottoman rule.
The Turks conquered lands that used to be part of Europe, and they ruled over European peoples. That does not make Turkey, the modern descendant of the Ottomans, a European state.
My argument against Turkey’s accession to the EU is based on grounds of cultural compatibility, not economics. Perhaps you should ask the Serbs, or the Greeks, or even the Spaniards how “European” they think the Turks are.
[quote]RankHypocrisy wrote:
The Roman Empire existed in Turkey for over 1000 years after the fall of Rome. That was called the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantines practiced a form of Christianity called Orthodox Christianity, which is, to this day, the national religion of Greece, which was a part of the Byzantine Empire. So I guess Turkey’s history has also been influenced by Christianity and Greek culture and shaped by the Roman Empire.
The Roman Empire that existed in Asia Minor for 1000 years after the fall of Rome was a Christian (specifically Orthodox), Hellenistic entity. The Oghuz Turks, from farther east in Anatolia, were the founders of the Ottoman Empire, an entity distinct from the Byzantine Empire. The Ottomans were immediately expansionist, moving first into the Balkans in the 14th century, conquering Greece by 1460, and conquering Constantinople in 1453. Constantinople was the last outpost of the Byzantine Empire, and its destruction meant the supplanting of that empire by the Ottomans.
The Ottomans spent much of the next 400 years trying to push ever farther into Europe, laying siege to Vienna as recently as 1683. Greece spent the better part of four centuries under Ottoman rule.
The Turks conquered lands that used to be part of Europe, and they ruled over European peoples. That does not make Turkey, the modern descendant of the Ottomans, a European state.
Oh and by the way, according the the CIA’s website, if Turkey enters the EU, it will be the sixth largest GDP in that union. It’s GDP growth is twice as fast as any other country in the top six as well. How’s that for a reason why the EU is seeking to incorporate Turkey?
My argument against Turkey’s accession to the EU is based on grounds of cultural compatibility, not economics. Perhaps you should ask the Serbs, or the Greeks, or even the Spaniards how “European” they think the Turks are.[/quote]
So what you’re saying is that when Turkomen tribes supplanted the Byzantines, the area ceased to be European?
So I suppose Italy, France, and Germany
are not European as those populations were all supplanted by Asiatic tribes concurrently with the fall of Rome. Of course you’ll say no because populations do not cease to exist just because they become dominated by another group, which is perfectly correct. Your biological argument is ignorant and offensive.
As I have stated before, with the rise of Kemal Ataturk more than 80 years ago, Turkey embarked on a political movement that resembles France’s more so than, say, Nazi Germany or most of Eastern Europe, particularly Austria.
Add to that, the fact that Turkey possesses a strong emerging economy, and it is no wonder that the EU is seeking ways to incorporate it. I think it is a tough argument to make that there is more bad blood between Turkey and the rest of Europe than there is between: Germany and France; Germany and the United Kingdom; Germany and Poland; the UK and France; etc.
In closing, I would like to remind you that on the eve of World War I, the Ottoman Empire was referred to BY EUROPEANS as “The Sick Old Man of Europe.” It seems pretty clear to me, that even then, Europeans believed that Turkey was European.
Todd
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
toddjacobs13 wrote:
…
Aristotle’s works, the major existing influence of Hellenic culture, survived the dark ages because they were preserved by Moorish scholars in the library at Toledo.
…
Your point about the Byzantine Empire is good although after the fall of the Byzantine Empire, Turkeys cultural divergence from Western Europe appears drastic.
I don’t quite understand what Aristotle, the Moors and Toledo have to do with the culture of Turkey. Are you just trying to illustrate that muslim culture is not barbaric?[/quote]
I set the Toledo Library point up poorly. I was simply trying to illustrate that European history is inextricably linked to more than just Caucasian, Christian culture. Causasian Christians have demonstrated the means and will to be destructive over the course of history as much as any group. It was only thanks to moderate Islamic scholars that the true gems of Hellenic Culture, the philosophical works, even survived to be known by modern culture.
The whole Caucasian culture argument is also ludicrous from another standpoint in that it assumes common ancestral origins for all European countries. I wonder how many Greeks living in Greece would gladly embrace the term Caucasian. In ancient Greece, it was common practice to sail into the Black Sea and capture members of tribes living in the Caucasus and enslave them. This is where we get the term “Slav.”
Todd
[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:
As I have stated before, with the rise of Kemal Ataturk more than 80 years ago, Turkey embarked on a political movement that resembles France’s more so than, say, Nazi Germany or most of Eastern Europe, particularly Austria.
Todd[/quote]
???
[quote]orion wrote:
toddjacobs13 wrote:
As I have stated before, with the rise of Kemal Ataturk more than 80 years ago, Turkey embarked on a political movement that resembles France’s more so than, say, Nazi Germany or most of Eastern Europe, particularly Austria.
Todd
???[/quote]???
[quote]orion wrote:
toddjacobs13 wrote:
As I have stated before, with the rise of Kemal Ataturk more than 80 years ago, Turkey embarked on a political movement that resembles France’s more so than, say, Nazi Germany or most of Eastern Europe, particularly Austria.
Todd
???
[/quote]
“The ideological foundation of Atat?rk’s reform program became known as Kemalism. Its main points were enumerated in the “Six Arrows” of Kemalism: republicanism, nationalism, populism, reformism, etatism (statism), and secularism.”
That kind of reminds me of French ideals of Liberty, Equality, and Brotherhood. Ataturk’s ideals were implemented in 1923 and have survived several attempts at revolution since his death in 1938. In 1980, the military declared martial law defused fundamentalist movements within Turkey and then, relatively, peacefully handed authority back to the Turkish government.
As for Austria, two words: Joerg Haider.