[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Oh, by the way, I also predict that Islam will become the dominant religion of the planet far before that.[/quote]
Stop the presses!
[quote]lixy wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Oh, by the way, I also predict that Islam will become the dominant religion of the planet far before that.
Stop the presses![/quote]
Old news. Simple math.
History doesn’t repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme, as Sam Clemens pointed out. A bit of trivia: did you know that the first terrorist suicide bomber, Ignacy Hryniewiecki, was Christian?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
So now they are “demonic.”
I guess the word “evil” just doesn’t have enough punch in a headline anymore.[/quote]
Just a thought.
Some years ago, a Neanderthal burial was found. The grave’s occupant was an older man with a congenitally withered arm, which might ordinarily be a lethal defect. He could not possibly have hunted and gathered for himself. He had achieved great age, was clearly taken care of by the community of Neanderthals through his life, and was buried with flowers and shells, signifying his status.
What society allows its members to turn its weak and frail, its mental dependent, into walking bombs, as a purposeful reminder of the incompetence of law and authority?
Is the adjective to be used merely “evil,” or melodramatically “demonic?”
No, “inhuman” comes close; but witness, even Neanderthals had more respect for humans than did these murderers. And that is their message.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Yes. Fortunately, Christianity doesn’t call for the subjugation of jews, which makes reform much easier.
Doesn’t any more, you should say, and I think this is a key point.
Christianity has had twenty centuries to iron out the kinks, so to speak. But how tolerant were Christians toward other faiths in the year 1428 AD? Remember that this year was just after four centuries of Crusades, during the Reconquista, right before the Inquisition, and a few decades before the start of the Golden Age of forced conversion and Church-approved genocide in the New World.
The reason I bring this up is that 1428 is what year it is right now, by the Islamic calendar.
When that same calendar ticks over to 2008 (in another 580 years), I predict that the gentle, peace-loving Muslims will look back at suicide bombings and violent jihads with the same horror and disgust with which most Christians look back on the Crusades, Inquisitions, Pogroms, and other examples of violent Christian extremism.
Oh, by the way, I also predict that Islam will become the dominant religion of the planet far before that.[/quote]
No, I mean Christianity doesn’t teach subjugation. I’m talking about the very foundations of the religions here. I’m not talking about Churches or Mosques twisting scripture in order to commit atrocities.
I will argue that Christianity has moved closer to it’s roots, not further away. The controversial point I’m making is that Islam will have to move away from the teachings of it’s earliest history. I would say that Christ and the apostles set up a passive church. Mohammad…well…Mohammad made beheadings a tradition.
Edit: Yes, I agree Islam will be the dominant religion. The West has become far too materialistic, decadent, and-I daresay-too secular, to keep up demographically.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
No, “inhuman” comes close; but witness, even Neanderthals had more respect for humans than did these murderers. And that is their message.[/quote]
I remember reading about that burial in National Geographic.
One’s usage of the word “inhuman” depends, I imagine, on one’s opinion of the innate character of humans. I’d say that the Neandertals were the inhuman ones, which is why they perished.
While Neandertals were peacefully burying their handicapped and their elderly deceased, modern man was busy perfecting his missile weapons, the better to eradicate any rival hominids on the veldt. And here we are today, with nary a Neandertal to be seen (with the possible exception of Gerard Depardieu).
After all, what could be more human than war and genocide?
[quote]lixy wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Oh, by the way, I also predict that Islam will become the dominant religion of the planet far before that.
Stop the presses![/quote]
I doubt it. It is self destructing. It is divided. For it to survive it must change it’s way. This radicalism is a cancer and that cancer is spreading. There is good in islam and those practitioners of it need to stand up and condemn the violence and hate. Left unchecked, it will consume them all. This is a certainty, it can not stand as is.
[quote]pat wrote:
It is self destructing. It is divided. For it to survive it must change it’s way. This radicalism is a cancer and that cancer is spreading. There is good in islam and those practitioners of it need to stand up and condemn the violence and hate. Left unchecked, it will consume them all. This is a certainty, it can not stand as is.[/quote]
Precisely the comment I would have expected a Jewish or Muslim observer to have made about Christianity at the start of the Thirty Years’ War.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
It is self destructing. It is divided. For it to survive it must change it’s way. This radicalism is a cancer and that cancer is spreading. There is good in islam and those practitioners of it need to stand up and condemn the violence and hate. Left unchecked, it will consume them all. This is a certainty, it can not stand as is.
Precisely the comment I would have expected a Jewish or Muslim observer to have made about Christianity at the start of the Thirty Years’ War.[/quote]
Again, true. But we are talking about what needs to happen in the present.
Nvm. I did misunderstand you, at first.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
It is self destructing. It is divided. For it to survive it must change it’s way. This radicalism is a cancer and that cancer is spreading. There is good in islam and those practitioners of it need to stand up and condemn the violence and hate. Left unchecked, it will consume them all. This is a certainty, it can not stand as is.
Precisely the comment I would have expected a Jewish or Muslim observer to have made about Christianity at the start of the Thirty Years’ War.
Again, true. But we are talking about what needs to happen in the present.
Nvm. I did misunderstand you, at first. [/quote]
So wait, do you understand what I’m saying now, or not?
My point is that Christianity has evolved, just as Islam is evolving. The rift between Shia and Sunni has been just as destructive as that between Catholic and Protestant. Both religions have engaged in holy war, oppression, terrorism and genocide. If you wanted to do a side-to-side body count comparison, I daresay Christianity would come out way ahead, not necessarily because Christians are more vicious than Muslims, but because they’ve been at it longer, and are more technologically efficient.
My conclusion is that just as Christians now like to think of themselves as practitioners of the real “religion of peace,” belying Christianity’s nearly twenty centuries of violence, so too will Muslims, once they have achieved the kind of numerical and political superiority that Christians now enjoy.
And I further predict that six centuries from now, on a forum hosted by the popular bodybuilding website Testosterone Sultanate, Muslims will discuss with distaste the rise in suicide bombings perpetrated by Scientologist extremists…
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
My point is that Christianity has evolved, just as Islam is evolving. The rift between Shia and Sunni has been just as destructive as that between Catholic and Protestant. Both religions have engaged in holy war, oppression, terrorism and genocide. If you wanted to do a side-to-side body count comparison, I daresay Christianity would come out way ahead, not necessarily because Christians are more vicious than Muslims, but because they’ve been at it longer, and are more technologically efficient.
My conclusion is that just as Christians now like to think of themselves as practitioners of the real “religion of peace,” belying Christianity’s nearly twenty centuries of violence, so too will Muslims, once they have achieved the kind of numerical and political superiority that Christians now enjoy.
And I further predict that six centuries from now, on a forum hosted by the popular bodybuilding website Testosterone Sultanate, Muslims will discuss with distaste the rise in suicide bombings perpetrated by Scientologist extremists…[/quote]
A proper mix of lulz and truth. Good post.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
It is self destructing. It is divided. For it to survive it must change it’s way. This radicalism is a cancer and that cancer is spreading. There is good in islam and those practitioners of it need to stand up and condemn the violence and hate. Left unchecked, it will consume them all. This is a certainty, it can not stand as is.
Precisely the comment I would have expected a Jewish or Muslim observer to have made about Christianity at the start of the Thirty Years’ War.
Again, true. But we are talking about what needs to happen in the present.
Nvm. I did misunderstand you, at first.
So wait, do you understand what I’m saying now, or not?
My point is that Christianity has evolved, just as Islam is evolving. The rift between Shia and Sunni has been just as destructive as that between Catholic and Protestant. Both religions have engaged in holy war, oppression, terrorism and genocide. If you wanted to do a side-to-side body count comparison, I daresay Christianity would come out way ahead, not necessarily because Christians are more vicious than Muslims, but because they’ve been at it longer, and are more technologically efficient.
My conclusion is that just as Christians now like to think of themselves as practitioners of the real “religion of peace,” belying Christianity’s nearly twenty centuries of violence, so too will Muslims, once they have achieved the kind of numerical and political superiority that Christians now enjoy.
And I further predict that six centuries from now, on a forum hosted by the popular bodybuilding website Testosterone Sultanate, Muslims will discuss with distaste the rise in suicide bombings perpetrated by Scientologist extremists…[/quote]
I believe there’s a fundamental difference that makes a large scale reformation less likely.
Again, Christianity had as it’s very base, a pacifist Christ, apostles, and early martyrs to reform itself to. That is to say, not in opposition to it’s very foundation.
My point is that Islam has…well, Muhammad and his message from Medina and beyond. Any possible reformation would move fowards in spite of it’s very foundation. I believe this could make things much more difficult.
What I misunderstood at first was your point about the 30 year war.
As far as how we Christians like to think of ourselves, I can only speak for myself. I believe we follow the one true faith, without apology. Now, I require no tax from those who don’t practise my religion, so don’t worry!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Again, Christianity had as it’s very base, a pacifist Christ, apostles, and early martyrs to reform itself to. That is to say, not in opposition to it’s very foundation.
My point is that Islam has…well, Muhammad and his message from Medina and beyond. Any possible reformation would move fowards in spite of it’s very foundation. I believe this could make things much more difficult.[/quote]
Sure, but look at Judaism, which is of course the progenitor of both Christianity and Islam. The Jewish faith developed from Mosaic and Levitican law, a more intolerant, misogynistic, inciting of racial hatred and genocide set of rules the world has never seen.
The first thing the Israelites did upon receiving the Divine Word was… well, wander aimlessly in the desert. But the next thing they did was to invade a neighboring country, slaughter the inhabitants, convert them forcibly to their religion, and enslave the rest. Mohammed had some fine role models in Moses and Joshua.
Judaism reformed. Christianity reformed. Buddhism and Hinduism reformed. Give it time.
When the Caliphate is restored, Muslims will go back to being the preeminent scholars and poets and scientists and engineers of the world, just like they were in the 11th century.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
As far as how we Christians like to think of ourselves, I can only speak for myself. I believe we follow the one true faith, without apology. [/quote]
In this, you share a commonality with every Muslim in the world.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As far as how we Christians like to think of ourselves, I can only speak for myself. I believe we follow the one true faith, without apology.
In this, you share a commonality with every Muslim in the world.[/quote]
Of course.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Again, Christianity had as it’s very base, a pacifist Christ, apostles, and early martyrs to reform itself to. That is to say, not in opposition to it’s very foundation.
My point is that Islam has…well, Muhammad and his message from Medina and beyond. Any possible reformation would move fowards in spite of it’s very foundation. I believe this could make things much more difficult.
Sure, but look at Judaism, which is of course the progenitor of both Christianity and Islam. The Jewish faith developed from Mosaic and Levitican law, a more intolerant, misogynistic, inciting of racial hatred and genocide set of rules the world has never seen.
The first thing the Israelites did upon receiving the Divine Word was… well, wander aimlessly in the desert. But the next thing they did was to invade a neighboring country, slaughter the inhabitants, convert them forcibly to their religion, and enslave the rest. Mohammed had some fine role models in Moses and Joshua.
Judaism reformed. Christianity reformed. Buddhism and Hinduism reformed. Give it time.
When the Caliphate is restored, Muslims will go back to being the preeminent scholars and poets and scientists and engineers of the world, just like they were in the 11th century.[/quote]
Varg…I’m not advocating the extermination of muslims here. Of course it’ll take time and probably alot of bloodshed from withing and without. I’m simply outlining what I see to be a unique hurdle on the way.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
If you wanted to do a side-to-side body count comparison, I daresay Christianity would come out way ahead, not necessarily because Christians are more vicious than Muslims, but because they’ve been at it longer, and are more technologically efficient.[/quote]
I disagree. The Muslims were more skilled at warfare than the Europeans ever were and by the time the Europeans began making technological improvements, the Turks did likewise and kept up. Ottoman Turks: Best army, best navy in Europe for 300 years. The reason they did not conquer all of Europe was because their Empire went the other way into the Middle East and Africa.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Varg…I’m not advocating the extermination of muslims here. Of course it’ll take time and probably alot of bloodshed from withing and without. I’m simply outlining what I see to be a unique hurdle on the way.[/quote]
Oh, I know. And I’m not necessarily cheering on the global hegemony of the Ummah. I’m just observing that every religion has had its own set of unique hurdles, and has by and large overcome them, albeit with a lot of bloodshed. That’s the nature of history, and we’re watching it unfold right now.
Just as the eventual displacement of whites in America by blacks and hispanics is practically inevitable, the eventual displacement of Christianity by Islam seems a mathematical certainty. It will be a different world then, and Islam will have become a different religion than it is today. A better one, too, I am inclined to believe.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
If you wanted to do a side-to-side body count comparison, I daresay Christianity would come out way ahead, not necessarily because Christians are more vicious than Muslims, but because they’ve been at it longer, and are more technologically efficient.
I disagree. The Muslims were more skilled at warfare than the Europeans ever were and by the time the Europeans began making technological improvements, the Turks did likewise and kept up. Ottoman Turks: Best army, best navy in Europe for 300 years. The reason they did not conquer all of Europe was because their Empire went the other way into the Middle East and Africa.[/quote]
Not if we’re comparing two thousand years of Christianity to 1400 years of Islam. Also, I suspect you’re only counting Muslim deaths by Christian hands versus Christian deaths by Muslim hands. I’m counting the whole enchilada: Muslims vs. everyone else on one side, and Christians vs. everyone else on the other.