RESTART Attempt? Please Help with Labs?

Robert_Paulson1 · March 10, 2012, 6:20pm

POST EDITED FOR LENGTH**PLEASE ALSO SEE POST #2

Hello gentlemen,

27, suffering from low T condition. Still researching hours out of every day but it’s a work in progress. Sorry if I am posting prematurely, becoming desperate - GF becoming impatient w/ my behavior and lack of sex interest - relationship in trouble; first year of law school almost a total wash.

Have used AAS, only real shutdown problems ever followed my last cycle, which was meant to be my last ever:

Anavar @ 80mg ED + Dbol @ 50mg ED for 4 wks then just Anavar for additional 3 wks

*THE PROBLEM
About 5 weeks through cycle, remaining gear + PCT stolen.

1st wk off - could feel mild symptoms of shutdown. Symptoms were not too bad and didn’t affect me that much.

3 months off - Moved to new city, still only mild symptoms

5 months off - 2 months after move started feeling worsened symptoms of shutdown / low T

7-10 months off - Symptoms got worse until I was feeling downright depressed, no sex drive, had a couple full out ED embarrassments, constant brain fog, nuts feeling and looking small - scrotum usually sucked right up close to the body, socially withdrawn big time. These problems may have been exacerbated by increased stress, decrease in training, poor sleep, and shit diet (not enough intake).

*TRANSIENT IMPROVEMENTS

15 months off - Things improved slightly but then no more. However, over past 8 months I’ve had transient improvements in symptoms for periods lasting between 1-4 days. These periods are generally accompanied by a more relaxed hanging of the testes, what seems like a very slight increase in testicular size, increased sex drive, slightly greater motivation for life and to hit the gym, some improvement concentrating.

Sleep Element? ** Sometimes, not always, these periods quite clearly seem to follow a night or two of significant sleep deprivation or physical exhaustion.

Sushi ** After eating a small roll of salmon maki for lunch I experienced a powerful spike in sex drive w/ spontaneous erection like in 7th grade. This got me thinking about iodine and was the reason I first tried an iodine supplement. No further sushi or iodine supplementation has replicated this experience.

^^ These brief periods suggest to me that although my body is producing sub optimal LH, maybe when a decent pulse IS released, the testes are somewhat successfully responding to it - this gives me hope of a restart maybe being effective. I recently had bloods done the morning after one of these pulses seemed to peak - should have results soon, interested to see if levels are elevated.

*HYPOTHESIS

My seemingly low LH and FSH with what appears to me a proportionate production of T suggests SECONDARY hypogonadism. I think it’s likely that what may be a high TSH is prob due to the HPTA being affected from AAS. The unhealthy cholesterol values you will see below are almost certainly from AAS.

*PERSONAL INFO

-age > 27

-height > 5’10

-waist > 30"

-weight > 188 lbs

-describe body and facial hair

had full beard at 14, always pretty heavy but not as thick on the sides (cheeks) as some guys, heavy body hair pretty much all over - lighter on the lower back but still there

-describe where you carry fat and how changed

on lower abdomen and around sides, not a lot but a significant bit - only real change is that it’s there now and wasn’t 5 yrs ago

-health conditions, symptoms [history]

nothing serious, definitely have a bit of anxiety which has gotten worse in what I assume to be the period I’ve had lowered T levels. Use of Accutane as teenager caused severe depression while on drug

-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever
> Rx:
*Accutane 2 or 3 times between age 12 - 15 - don’t remember for how long,
*Celexa for very short period of a few weeks around 17,
*Wellbutrin XL 150 mg ED, took for 4 wks, decided to come off a few days ago until I get my system sorted out ** after 3 days of being off I had another experience of elevated sex drive accompanied by more normal hanging of testes and marginally increased size (at least improved shape and hardness)
*Cialis occasionally, between 5-10 mg, also have shitty UGL capsules that I occasionally use instead

 > AAS (age 19 - 24 v.stupid I know): 
Have done separate cycles of Test Enanthate, Winstrol orals, Deca, Anavar + DBol.     Longest cycle was 10 weeks, average cycle 6 wks. Can provide a rough outline of each if necessary

> OTC:

Currently taking ED:
*high DHA squid oil complex containing 1300 mg omega 3,
*15ml greens extract complex,
*12000 iUs vitamin D3
*1000 iUs vit C
*Saw Palmetto (just started) approx. 320 mg

*LAB RESULTS WITH RANGES

(please note any conversions to ng/dL are approximate and not perfectly to the decimal pt)

LH= 3.8 U/L (range given: < 12.0)

FSH = 2.2 U/L (range given: < 7.0)

TT (this lab doesn’t seem to indicate FT or bio-T on their template so I think they only test TT)
= AM 11.1 nmol/L (range given: 10.3 - 29.5) [these are Canadian units of measure]
equivalent to 320.15 ng/dL (range given: 297.08 - 850.86) [what you’re likely used to seeing]

FT or bio-T - they don’t seem to even offer this test at the diagnostic lab chain most Dr’s use in my area, I may need to find a different lab

E2 - Dr of course didn’t seem to think this was worth testing, will get done on next panel very soon

Prolactin - will test next

DHT - also doesn’t seem to be tested @ this lab

PSA - also not @ lab

TSH - 2.82 mU/L (range: 0.20 - 4.00)

fasting serum glucose results - 5.1 nmol/L (3.3 - 6.0)
approx. same as - 147.08 ng/dL (95.17 - 173.03)

high blood pressure - need recent test, will do at drugstore

bone density tests results - don’t have

cholesterol - 5.68 nmol/L (<6.20) = [163.8 ng/dL (<178.8)]
Triglyceride, 2.06 nmol/L (<1.70) = [59.40 ng/dL (<49.02)]
HDL, 1.25 nmol/L (>0.90) = [36.04 ng/dL (>23.25)]
LDL, 3.49 nmol/L no range given = [100.65 ng/dL]
Total cholesterol / HDL ratio, 4.5
^^ I need to learn more about these numbers but they look like shit, even the Doc said they were high

Although my knowledge is admittedly lacking in regard to the meanings of the lab values and ranges, it appears to me that my LH and T levels are proportionate: LH is approx 1/3 (3.9:12.0) of the top of the range given, as is TT (11.1:29.5). Perhaps this is indicative that if a restart could effectively increase my natural LH production, then the testes would still be capable of subsequently increasing their T production

*THE WAY FORWARD / RESTART ATTEMPT PROPOSAL

Think I should try restart before HRT. Still young and body has seemed to be acting somewhat differently than expected from an average shutdown - timeline is strange, feels like pituitary still sending out pulses of LH that are somewhat effective on testes. It seems my problem is secondary, rather than primary hypogonadal.

Triptorelin - I am trying to learn more about this stuff but it’s obviously only been used for these purposes more recently, and there isn’t a lot of info out there. The study often seen only covers one subject and doesn’t seem to provide any long term results - just that there was return to normal levels 1 month after treatment. If anyone knows of more info out there on this stuff to treat shutdown please let me know.

**Proposed Restart:
Begin w/ low dose HCG to resensitize the testes to higher levels of LH that are still w/in the physiological range. Follow up w/ SERM for LH & FSH release stimulating effects, preferably Tamoxifen along w/ an appropriate AI to inhibit any additional receptor down-regulation from increased E levels. Taper slowly off SERM and adjust AI accordingly. Continue AI for 4 additional weeks after SERM ends.

This would entail:
WK 1-3(?)*HCG @ 250iu EOD (frontload?), run 3 weeks or until testes have recovered size and firmness
*Anastrozole @ .25mg EOD
WK 4-8(?)*Nolvadex @ 10mg ED or 20 mg EOD (FL?)
*Anastrozole @ .25mg EOD
WK 9 *Nolvadex @ 10mg EOD
*Anastrozole @ .125mg EOD
WK 10-14 *Anastrozole @ .125mg EOD

^^ ?'s regarding the above -

Should I expect to run the HCG for a longer period since I’ve been at low production for awhile, and it may take longer to resensitize the testes to LH? Would it serve my recovery better to do this for a minimum period of time or should I switch to SERM as soon as the testes have responded significantly?
Should I frontload the HCG or the Nolva? I’ve read hardasnails saying that sometimes with restarts less is more, I’m not sure how this translates to frontloading.
Likewise, should I begin at a higher dose w/ the nolva and then taper more slowly over longer period? And how long should the Nolva be run? I think KSman suggests 2 weeks can even be long enough in some cases
I think the doses and timelines here stick to pretty modest doses that should avoid any extra suppression as much as possible, but please let me know if I’m under or overdosing something or running anything too long (maybe too much time on SERM, or more should be on HCG)
Thought I read somewhere that Nolvadex and Anastrozole interact w/ each other, reducing levels of both drugs in the blood. Is this accurate? And if so, should I substitute one of these drugs for something else?

*THANKS

Thank you to anyone who can offer assistance w/ my attempt at recovery. I am researching my ass off and still have lots of learning to do, but I am very dedicated. Unfortunately I am also a full time law student in my first year, might not make it through now. More concerned about fixing my system and getting life back on track, rest will fall into place when I’m in good form.

Thanks again for any help guys, I have incredible respect for the knowledge around here and the time so many of you put into helping guys get back on track. Hope I can offer more to others in the future.

Robert_Paulson1 · February 29, 2012, 2:22am

Here’s some more info re: symptoms, lifestyle, etc. - as specified in stickies

-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]:
Definitely don’t use starvation diets, but since moving, diet has changed. Caloric intake is decreased although I was probably consuming more than I needed before.
Red meat consumption much decreased
Also, I used to eat sushi at least 3x /wk - now almost never

-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training]:
Have been getting in between 3-4 sessions /wk lately. Prefer to train somewhat heavier but nothing my body couldn’t previously handle quite easily.
SQUATS = 8-10 sets of 6-8 reps @ 225 - 315 lbs
DEADS = 10 sets of 5-6 reps @ 225 - 350 lbs
BENCH = 10 sets of 5 reps @ 200 - 265 lbs

-testes ache, ever, with a fever?
*Only once, maybe twice in the last 2 yrs I noticed a very dull ache in the right testicle only

*During the period through which I’ve felt T production has been lowered, there has been some decrease in testicle size

*Scrotum is often tight and pulled up, testes not hanging like they used to, I understand this can be from low LH

-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed
morning wood much less frequent, on average maybe once or twice a month I will wake up with a nearly full one without having used cialis

duration of problems -
Approx. 16 mths, w/ symptoms at their worst starting approx 14 mths ago until starting to notice brief transient improvements (but not nearly approaching previous state) over 1-4 day periods beginning roughly 9 months ago → these brief and moderate improvements have not become more frequent or longer in duration as far as I can tell.

Basically, it seemed initially I experienced only minor shutdown after finishing an oral only cycle (where exogenous T should clear body quickly), then several months later symptoms got worse and continued to decline over subsequent months. This is atypical from what is generally expected for a timeline of a shutdown post cycle.

BPH or urine flow reduction - no

use iodized salt -
no, began supplementing w/ kelp extract iodine @750 mcg - first dose made me nauseous and bad headache, didn’t take again for awhile, tried again this AM w/ a quarter of a tab - so far so good.

work place exposure to chemicals - don’t think so

dry skin, brittle nails, feel cold easily -
generally no to first 2, although maybe a bit drier than in the past (nails included); have felt I get colder somewhat easier than I used to - however, the weather here right now is colder, winter season. Generally though I do not feel my body is producing the excessive heat it always used to.

check waking body temp before you get feet on the floor - I need to get a thermometer and will do this

exposure to flame retardant clothing - no

react poorly to stress - prob not as well as I used to, kind of feel like I react poorly to everything these days

lost of some peripheral vision - none noticed

any degree of gynomastia -
have never had any gyno problems even through cycling. Currently being w/out E2 numbers I guess there’s no way of knowing if this is bc I have normal to low-end E2, or if I just do not have the same sensitivity in that tissue as some do

VTBalla34 · February 28, 2012, 10:36pm

Dude come on, you can’t expect us to read all that…cliff notes

Robert_Paulson1 · February 29, 2012, 1:57am

Sorry VT, I’m too used to reading. Will cut it down when I get back to a computer. Think I put too much in bc wasn’t sure what’s important. Will stick mostly to the stuff laid out in stickies

Robert_Paulson1 · February 29, 2012, 2:12am

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Dude come on, you can’t expect us to read all that…cliff notes[/quote]

Ok it’s trimmed up, most of the length now is just lab results / responses to sticky ?'s. It also looks long bc I added spaces to make it easier on the eyes. Hopefully this is ok now, but I can cut it down to just labs & sticky responses if that’s better. Anyone just say the word, I don’t want to make it hard for others to help me.

dooright · February 29, 2012, 2:50am

Are restarts and cycles suitable subjects for the T Replacement forum? Is there anything that can be said here that isn’t handled better on the Steroids and other forums?

Robert_Paulson1 · February 29, 2012, 3:09am

[quote]dooright wrote:
Are restarts and cycles suitable subjects for the T Replacement forum? Is there anything that can be said here that isn’t handled better on the Steroids and other forums?[/quote]

I didn’t really intend to focus on the cycle, just give the background of the cause for shutdown. This thread is meant to be about the restart, which is following a prolonged shutdown - different from an average PCT. I posted here bc this is where I’ve found most of the threads regarding restarts - this seems to be where most of the relevant knowledge is. The stickies I’ve tailored my posts to have mostly been from this forum as far as I can remember.

My apologies if this is not the appropriate place to post, if the forum generally feels this would be better handled somewhere else, please everyone just tell me so and I will gladly move over to the proper area.

dooright · February 29, 2012, 3:50am

Please understand that I’m not picking on you, plenty of others have asked here too. But if we could restart, we wouldn’t be on T replacement. Come up with a restart for us, and you’re assured an honored place here!

Anyway, I’m just some guy, and asking the question. Are restarts and cycles really subjects for the T Replacement forum?

VTBalla34 · February 29, 2012, 4:28am

[quote]dooright wrote:
Please understand that I’m not picking on you, plenty of others have asked here too. But if we could restart, we wouldn’t be on T replacement. Come up with a restart for us, and you’re assured an honored place here!

Anyway, I’m just some guy, and asking the question. Are restarts and cycles really subjects for the T Replacement forum?

[/quote]

Yes, they have a perfectly legitimate place here. I have actually been considering petitioning the powers to be to rename this forum into something more appropriate (Hormone Replacement Forum or Hormone Improvement most likely)…The reason a lot of people here are on TRT is because they are primary…if you are secondary, then a restart attempt is warranted…

OP: I am beat up physically and mentally tonight…I will get to your post tomorrow and go through it…thanks for cleaning it up…my head exploded the first time I tried to read it all

Robert_Paulson1 · February 29, 2012, 7:41am

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]dooright wrote:
Please understand that I’m not picking on you, plenty of others have asked here too. But if we could restart, we wouldn’t be on T replacement. Come up with a restart for us, and you’re assured an honored place here!

Anyway, I’m just some guy, and asking the question. Are restarts and cycles really subjects for the T Replacement forum?

[/quote]

Yes, they have a perfectly legitimate place here. I have actually been considering petitioning the powers to be to rename this forum into something more appropriate (Hormone Replacement Forum or Hormone Improvement most likely)…The reason a lot of people here are on TRT is because they are primary…if you are secondary, then a restart attempt is warranted…

OP: I am beat up physically and mentally tonight…I will get to your post tomorrow and go through it…thanks for cleaning it up…my head exploded the first time I tried to read it all[/quote]

I expected this was the place for it. Thanks VT, any wisdom you guys in here can share is immensely appreciated. Please let me know if the post is concise enough from your perspective, so that others will be willing to read as well. Sorry for putting you through that first version

Robert_Paulson1 · February 29, 2012, 6:25pm

[quote]dooright wrote:
Please understand that I’m not picking on you, plenty of others have asked here too. But if we could restart, we wouldn’t be on T replacement. Come up with a restart for us, and you’re assured an honored place here!

Anyway, I’m just some guy, and asking the question. Are restarts and cycles really subjects for the T Replacement forum?

[/quote]

Dooright, if you are secondary hypogonadal as I believe I am, and I am indeed successful w/ a restart - I would be extremely happy to share with you any information and experience which could benefit you or others. You can hold me to that.

VTBalla34 · February 29, 2012, 9:44pm

Your cholesterol numbers are not bad at all. I’m not sure waht your doctor was talking about. Triglycerides could use some improvement (less sugar). Look into that.

Your TSH is on the high side, but mostly a meaningless number without T3/T4 (free). You should track this and get the T3/T4 as well next time.

Free T is not available but useless right now as your Total T is too low. Free T isn’t going to be any better.

LH and FSH are on the low end. Concur that you are likely still shutdown. You need to attempt a restart.

Your restart protocol looks ok. Have you started the HCG yet?

I would probably up that to 500 iu 3x/week. Bit of a higher dosage than those recommended on TRT in order to get your balls functioning again. AI with the HCG is fine but may not do a whole lot as a lot of the aromatization will be inter-testicular which seems to make AI’s less effective.

Get your levels tested while on HCG before moving on to next step.

I don’t know if your Nolva protocol is good. I want to say the dosages are too small, but thats not an area I am familiar with. Go to the Steroids section and look at the SERM/AI stickey and the Advice for new Guys stickey (or whatever its called) and figure out the proper PCT. Use that. It will be 4 weeks. Higher dose the first two weeks, then lower dose the second two weeks.

I am also curious about triptorelin. I think there is a lot of potential for that drug if it works as claimed. But I don’t know anyone that has yet used it successfully. Appears to be hit or miss as far as quailty from UGL’s and probably better off sticking to SERMs for now, but keep that in your back pocket in case this doesn’t work.

Don’t take an AI with the SERM–you are right it will counteract the effectiveness of the SERM and downgrade both.

dhickey · March 1, 2012, 12:26am

seems to me that 20mg/day of Nolva is a pretty common restart protocol and that it’s run for at least a month. This is what I am doing now. Only three days into it. I’m going to check TT, LH/FSH 4 weeks in. I think I’ll probably taper for a week or two while adding an AI. I’ll retest TT, LH/FSH, and add E2.

Not sure that a taper is even needed. I need to think about that. I do think that running an AI for a week or two before the post restart test will provide a bit clearer picture. That and you are not going from zero E2 feedback to getting blasted with high E2 feedback.

We’ll see if anything comes of it.

dooright · March 1, 2012, 3:16am

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]dooright wrote:
Please understand that I’m not picking on you, plenty of others have asked here too. But if we could restart, we wouldn’t be on T replacement. Come up with a restart for us, and you’re assured an honored place here!

Anyway, I’m just some guy, and asking the question. Are restarts and cycles really subjects for the T Replacement forum?

[/quote]

Yes, they have a perfectly legitimate place here. I have actually been considering petitioning the powers to be to rename this forum into something more appropriate (Hormone Replacement Forum or Hormone Improvement most likely)…The reason a lot of people here are on TRT is because they are primary…if you are secondary, then a restart attempt is warranted…
[/quote]

Yes, that does make sense. Sorry all for the interruption.

Hardasnails · March 1, 2012, 2:19pm

Find out the imbalances which got you here in the first place and address them accordingly. These are usually found in the immune ,neurological, lifestyles, adrenals, thyroid, or environmental ares which all need to explore. I have assisted with several hundred restarts and since correcting metabolic, neurological, lifestyles and other aspects success rate for holding has increased significanlty even in people over 40.

Robert_Paulson1 · March 2, 2012, 12:40am

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Your cholesterol numbers are not bad at all. I’m not sure waht your doctor was talking about. Triglycerides could use some improvement (less sugar). Look into that.