Think that was the majority of puffs points. That education works better when these laws are circumvented and a good chunk are outdated/bad
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Yes. The government says that you have to follow common core then tells charters they donât have to. Then, supposedly, and it is supposedly, charters do better and the government says letâs get rid of public schools.
Public schools canât expell students but charters can and do and they suspend students at a higher rate. So itâs like the government handicapped public schools to make charters appear superior.
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The laws are new.
And itâs all a bunch of bull crap. Charters are not better. Compare a kid from an inner city charter to a kid in a suburb. How do we explain the suburban superiority? If the school really is the difference then a public school should suck by comparison regardless of location. Charters are given certain advantages over public schools but if all schools were charters they wouldnât appear that great as they would lose those advantages.
There is another side to the charter school issue that shows they arenât some miracle that will cure society.
Those who look at the inner city and say our schools are failing should look at schools in other towns. No one looks at Chicago crime and says our laws are failing. International test scores canât be looked at superficially. Some countries, like China, do not take an honest approach to them. When US scores are broken down by state we see that some states are competitive with high scoring countries. And unlike those countries, the best states for public education in this country still have inner city scores weighing in. Finland does not have a Chicago or Detroit.
As far as teacher unions, thatâs all a smoke screen. Itâs always those with the least power who are blamed. Why is it a suburban school with union teachers does better than an urban school 10 minutes away that also has union teachers. Why does it do better than the charter school? Why does a state with unionized teachers do better than a state without? Compare Massachusetts to Kentucky.
The real issue is the community and no one on either side is willing to do anything about it. Charter schools wonât change that reality but they will make some people money. If politicians are pushing something itâs because someone is looking to profit.
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Charter schools can hold higher standards for behavior, and can dismiss kids who have big behavior problems. True. Parents and kids know this, and thatâs one of the reasons they WANT to be there. Itâs as close to moving your kids to the suburbs, or affording a private school as these poor families can get.
No, we wouldnât be back to square one, unless we fail to change policies that make our inner city schools so ineffective, and often unsafe, as @Basement_Gainz mentioned. There need to be more alternative placements for behavioral and discipline problems, and alternative high schools, and more job training and tracking kids into trades and vocational ed sooner within the inner cities. That last part is true of all our public schools.
Kids donât go from being well-behaved model students to being young felons involved in the juvenile justice system overnight. I worked in Crips territory in LA county. We had high school and even sometimes junior high kids in self-contained classrooms, often on another school site, with basically a probation officer and Law enforcement help. Those kids need work study programs, and job skills training. And doing the right thing for the rest of the kids, means removing them if necessary. They can come back when their behavior improves, and they earn that right.
Some of these kids from a county program like this did volunteer hours in my daughterâs special education program. Young men in the juvenile justice system with supervision would show up and be so gentle. Tiny kids in wheelchairs each need a person to hold them and exercise them in the swimming pool, and they need help eating lunch. Those young men were really sooo sweet with my handicapped daughter.
We need to stop lying to ourselves that the way to have compassion on young chronic behavior problem kids to keep them in schools with kids who are actually trying to get an education. This has been the thinking. âHey, kids who stay in school are less likely to go to jail, so letâs keep all the juvenile delinquents in school.â To do that, letâs punish schools who suspend or expel them. And if schools expel a lot of Black kids, weâll assume theyâre the public school equivalent of a racist cop, with biased teachers." Yeah.
Meanwhile, those kids are disrupting the school and terrorizing⊠wait for it⊠usually not @pfuryâs white kids⊠Theyâre making life miserable for mostly other Black or Latino kids who live in their neighborhoods. Yep. We all know that young Black men in street gangs are most likely to kill other young Black men in street gangs. Well, they act all of that out in second grade, as they terrorize the other kids on the block, who are often waiting in line for the charter schools so they can avoid that. Youâre caring about one group of Black kids, and making life a living hell for the rest of the Black kids.
If you assume that putting a juvenile delinquent kids with serious behavior problems in the classroom with 30 well-mannered kids will somehow fix him? The research shows thatâs very unlikely. If the difficult kid has even a modicum of charisma or social skill, the more common outcome is that the other kids will laugh, reinforce his behavior, admire his rebelliousness, imitate him, and you will soon have five discipline problems instead of one.
For some history here. This isnât new, but Obama era laws, under Arne Duncan as US Sec of Ed, made it much harder to suspend or expel discipline problems. Youâve talked before about how that little social experiment has worked. The schools now have a zero bullying policy, and will be sued if they know about bullying, and donât sufficiently protect kids. No bullying. If your kid is bullied, sue the school. Meanwhile, we expect them to keep Black students particularly in urban areas in the public schools in an attempt to stop the school to prison pipeline for those kids. If Black or Hispanic kids are suspended or expelled at rates higher than their White counterparts, then thatâs a sign of racism and discrimination. There is no other explanation for disparate behavior in progressive identity politics world.
So, we are to expect the same behavior from poor kids in the inner-city, often with no fathers, who often have very young uneducated mothers, and who often have role models who are associated with street gangs, even though all the research tells us that these young men will be statistically different than our friend @libanbolt. They will do worse on nearly every parameter you can measure. You canât expect them to be as well-behaved as the Black kids from a middle-class family who moved to a better area. So no, this isnât all the fault of the teacherâs union. But it hasnât gotten better in recent years, and progressive policies have further put schools between a rock and a hard place.
Donât even get me started on special education, and the tragedy of labeling kids who act out, terrorize other kids, and destroy school property as Emotionally Disturbed instead of just calling them a behavior or discipline problem. This makes it very hard to discipline them, as you know. And it throws them in with genuinely disabled kids, so they can make the poor kids with learning disabilities lives a living hell. OR this brilliant idea that if Black kids are over-represented in Special Education programs, then you know youâve got racists identifying too many of them? True story. Your school will be forced to go to sensitivity training, and as I mentioned in Drewâs old bullying thread, some of the large schools districts are spending many $100s of thousands of dollars to âfixâ this problem. As a school psychologist, every 3-year-old in the district who has a suspected disability would come through my office. So, under these rules, Iâm going to be motivated to NOT identify a three-year-old Black kid who comes through my office who needs an early intervention program, or at least to try to not identify too many of them. Meanwhile weâll ignore the fact that so many more Black babies are premature, or have exposure to lead. That pendulum is swinging back now as more parents of Black kids have realized that the schools are under identifying them, and theyâre demanding special education services that their kids need.
Iâve talked about some of this in other threads.
@ Charters and Special Education? Most seriously disabled kids are going to need to be in public schools where there is more money for small classes, more aides per pupil, etc⊠I would never consider trying to put my severely mentally disabled daughter in a charter, unless they were able to take equivalent special education funding with them, and there was a special needs-type charter school with other severely disabled kids.
Iâd like to comment on some other things you said as I have questions, but I think this is going to be the main hurdle.
At the end of the day, school choice galore is asking those who have escaped bad school districts into good ones (read: typically wealthier areas) to vote for their home values to plumet and their kids school to start taking in kids from the very districts they just escaped from.
Iâm all for taking it on the chin for the greater good sometimes, but my girls ARE the greater good. Tbh Iâm not sure what would have to happen for me to support widescale school choice options
I mentioned the Crips above. I just saw this. The latest on Kanye.
This one has the video of Daz Dillinger threatening him.
Mark my words - conservative values will be the bedrock of the next pop music counterculture movement.
Young people are wired to lash out against conformity. In my teenage years that meant smoking dope and being apathetic. Thatâll probably never go out of style, but I could easily see Kanye and other artists tapping into all of this angst that is inevitable when you try to tell people what they are supposed to think.
The SJWs are practically begging for a 2018 incarnation of The Dead Kennedyâs to come along and piss all over everything they hold dear without giving two fucks about what anyone else thinks.
How did we ever get here?
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So to this one specifically, it probably does FAR more harm to your cause than any possible good. This paragraph alone would turn me away from any concept that integrated the local metro with my daughterâs school.
So under the assumption that âweâ want charter school practices to go nationwide. How does this paragraph shake out when you remove the crutch charters have of not having to deal with these students?
Ditto to the first quote.
How does this shake out in reality? On one hand implementing this means MASSIVE cost increases (which loses you Reps) and otoh youâre inevitably hitting minority and poor areas harder than not (which loses you Dems).
If I lived back home in WV and the graduating classes are 2 digit pupil counts and the nearing HS that didnât cross into OH was 25 minutes away one way, where would the trouble student go?
Iâm assuming that your move to the suburbs put you in a different school district? In CA at least, school districts are under no obligation to accept inter-district transfers from other districts. Charter school options are available within the district where you live. To my knowledge, the days of busing kids out to the suburbs are over. Parents typically want better schools nearby. Even in a HUGE district like LA, kids are almost always attending charters or magnets within a few miles of their homes. Traffic makes going too far a nightmare, even within that district.
That was very, very funny.
I love that we now have one rapper telling the other one to basically, âShut up and rap or Iâll kill you.â Maybe to @libanboltâs original post. Letâs teach young black kids to listen to⊠anything but this garbage.
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Yup, thatâs correct
My entire metro is sub 500k bodies. Personally, I live near the border of my suburb connecting to the metro range. I live about 3 mins drive from my daughterâs current school, and about 8 minutes from the nearest metro grade school. Not exactly a drive that would scare me if the tables were turned and I wanted to get my kid out of the bad districts
Donât know, but Iâd love a Jewish Kayne to come along and free American Jews from their Democratic shackles.
I mean, an open-and-unrepentant anti-Semite (Keith Ellison) is the head of the DNC. A women who supports the ethnic cleansing of Jewish people from Israel runs the âwomanâs march.â
Weâre not welcome there.
Our money and connections, are welcome. But us? Just as soon as they get what they want, theyâd just as soon kill us.
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And those kids end up in public schools. Where do they go if all the schools are charter schools?
And no, it isnât close to the suburbs at all. You can go from a public or charter school school in the inner city to a school in the suburb and see a difference between the students that will make you wonder if they are all the same species. I say this as someone who has worked and still works in schools, both in the suburbs and the city. Whose wife works in a charter school in the city. And as someone who has lived in the inner city.
Well, if we did that then we wouldnât be talking about charter schools. But again, based on personal experience, the schools are not the place to make effective changes. It has to be in the homes and communities. But then we couldnât blame teachers anymore.
Itâs funny how teachers get blamed for the failings of students who arrived as damaged goods and how the entire public educational system in this country is judged by that minority. We donât look at the violent crime in the inner city and say that cops need to be fired and their unions dissolved. We donât declare that our entire system of law and order and justice is a failure. We donât judge how safe our entire country is from crime by the inner cities.
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The more kids leave the inner city for schools in the suburbs, the more kids in the suburbs will have to go the opposite way.
You mean rappers will start acting macho, make gay slurs, champion the virtues of making money and being wealthy, and then thank God and Jesus if they win a Grammy?
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History says the opposite. They are wired to attack those who are different.
Wow, talk about a straw man argument.
Sad thing is, liberals actually believe conservatives are like the straw man they have created.
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Wow, talk about not having a sense of humor.
Iâm talking about pop counterculture and the subset of young people who are always going to eschew whatever social and cultural norms exist.
The pendulum has swung so far to the left that you have MTV indoctrinating itâs viewers with conformist SJW nonsense. SJW nonsense is incredibly mainstream now. Going along with it is expected, any deviation and you will literally hear from an angry mob if youâre a famous black man or even a typical entertainer or artist.
This crap is so easy to rebel against that Kanye West now qualifies as an intellectual renegade.
Edit: Iâd also like to add that it is easy for a guy like me to rebel against it, because I donât have much of a stake. I just need to keep my mouth shut about politics at work and Iâm all set.
Kanye actually risked a lot by âcoming outâ. SJW backlash, backlash from a lot of black people, reserved backlash from white people who werenât so sure it was okay to criticize a black guy but figured it was okay once they saw most of the black people doing it, and other such brave #resistance fighters. Not to mention it could very well affect his bottom line quite a bit.
I liked your joke because I had to read it twice before I got it!
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Ah, the âit was just a jokeâ claim. Sorry, if it was a joke, itâs too close to the actual beliefs of a typical liberal to tell the difference.
Iâve been called a racist so many times by liberals (and even antisemitic, which is amusing) that itâs pretty clear they equate disagreement with do-nothing-good government programs with racism.
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