Renaming PWI

florelius · November 11, 2010, 7:16pm

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
In case you didn’t know, socialism isn’t immune to imperialism. Google the “Iron Curtain”.
[/quote]

People always forget the other socialism — National Socialism of Germany aka Nazis. National Socialism was about as Imperial as it comes – ask Poland.

How this leftist Hitler got painted as a creature of the “Right” I have no idea.

I suppose because he didn’t like that the Communists because the communists let stupid Jewish people (and they were stupid) in their ranks.[/quote]

jewbacca this is allready been beaten to death. marxian-socialism and national-socialism is not even close. they disagree on almost all subjects.

florelius · November 11, 2010, 7:20pm

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
To the op, when you elect the most liberal, and inexperienced man in the history of our country to the highest office in the land you’ll have to expect that there will be a multitude of critics. Look at what the press did to GW and he was superb in comparison to Obama. Honestly, I’m still trying to find just one thing that Obama has done that is actually helping our country. If I didn’t know better (and some days I don’t) I’d swear he’s actually trying to harm us.

One more point, I’m actually surprised at the number of defenders that Obama has on this site. But then again if you take away all of the foreigners, and the 20 year old self-proclaimed socialists (awe they’re so cute), he doesn’t have many protectors. [/quote]

wtf

I am a foreigner and a 24 year old self-proclaimed socialist and I am no obama supporter, I just react
when alzeimers pasients like you try to lump him in with my group( socialist ). I dont support people who
send people over sea to kill others.

[/quote]

In case you didn’t know, socialism isn’t immune to imperialism. Google the “Iron Curtain”.

And please fill me in on what your socialism would do to your nieghbor if he tried to claim self ownership? Socialism by definition must use force to collect property of people whom disagree. Oh right, you said over seas, I guess you don’t see threats of violence against your own countrymen as bad as someone overseas.

Oh, and claiming to be socialist is claiming to own others so I always try to give a big FU to supporters of slavery.

Claiming to be socialist and pacifistic is completely contradictory.[/quote]

I never said anything about pacifism( read my post again ).

I implied that I dont suppport imperialism and occupation. And even if Stalin where a imperialist, does not meen that all socialists are. most are anti-imperialist and all socialist I know dont support Obama or the western occupation of afganistan. [/quote]

The occupation of your neighbor is still occupation.

I never claimed all socialists were imperialists in foreign policy. I did note they all were domestically though. I fail to see why you think you should have rights to violently subdue someone who is geographically near to you, but its suddenly attrocious

And I’m a capitalist, and I don’t support Obama (like most capitalists) By your logic that makes him not a capitalist.

Many Capitalists are also isolationists, and don’t support foreign wars too. War policy and economic policy have little to do with one another.
[/quote]

In my countyr its only the socialist left that are antimilitarist and antiimperialist. we dont have a ron paul.

about the other thing: I think you mix the concept of the state and socialism sir.

Jewbacca · November 11, 2010, 7:53pm

[quote]florelius wrote: about the other thing: I think you mix the concept of the state and socialism sir.

[/quote]

National Socialism and the Marxist systems of socialism are (or were) the same thing: the government has full control of the means of production. The State decides what shall be produced and how. The State allots to each individual a share of consumer’s goods for his consumption.

The only difference between the systems is that the National Socialist pattern maintained nominal private ownership of the means of production and kept the appearance of ordinary prices, wages, and markets.

But in fact the State directed production decisions, curbed entrepreneurship and the labor market, and determined wages and interest rates by central authority. Market exchange under National Socialism was only a sham.

To put it terms you might understand:

The only difference between socialism or facism any of the other stateisms is the sales pitch.

It’s all the same crap packaged different.

A shit sandwich is a shit sandwich, whether you call it a Stalin-burger or a Quisling-burger.

Jewbacca · November 11, 2010, 7:58pm

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
I dont support people who send people over sea to kill others.
[/quote]

You mean, like the Taliban/Al-quadi flying planes into buildings in NYC? Or Iran sending proxies to Gaza to shell elementary schools in Israel? Or Iraq sending assasins to try to kill George Bush, the Elder?

Your one-sided non-interventionists crap is a transparent lie to everyone but youself.

The real truth is you (and most Europeans) hate America, hate Americans, look down on them, and yet are jealous of them and their success, and so revel in the USA getting put in its place.[/quote]

give me a fucking break. I dont hate americans, but I hate imperialism and therefor I hate american imperialism. I would not like chinese imperialism any better.

[/quote]

American imperialism? You mean like how they occupied Japan and all those European states and made them part of the American Empire?

Oh, no, wait, that was your hereos the Soviets and National Socialists who did that.

The Americans came, killed the bad guys, rebuilt the countries of their enemies and left as fast as they could fucking go. Doing the same thing in Iraq.

America is the LEAST Imperial superpower in the history of the world.

Again, no one is fooled by your bullshit. You hate Americans, you look down on them, and yet are jealous of them.

Me, I am not American, but I think America rocks.

Rockscar · November 11, 2010, 8:13pm

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
I dont support people who send people over sea to kill others.
[/quote]

You mean, like the Taliban/Al-quadi flying planes into buildings in NYC? Or Iran sending proxies to Gaza to shell elementary schools in Israel? Or Iraq sending assasins to try to kill George Bush, the Elder?

Your one-sided non-interventionists crap is a transparent lie to everyone but youself.

The real truth is you (and most Europeans) hate America, hate Americans, look down on them, and yet are jealous of them and their success, and so revel in the USA getting put in its place.[/quote]

give me a fucking break. I dont hate americans, but I hate imperialism and therefor I hate american imperialism. I would not like chinese imperialism any better.

[/quote]

American imperialism? You mean like how they occupied Japan and all those European states and made them part of the American Empire?

Oh, no, wait, that was your hereos the Soviets and National Socialists who did that.

The Americans came, killed the bad guys, rebuilt the countries of their enemies and left as fast as they could fucking go. Doing the same thing in Iraq.

America is the LEAST Imperial superpower in the history of the world.

Again, no one is fooled by your bullshit. You hate Americans, you look down on them, and yet are jealous of them.

Me, I am not American, but I think America rocks.[/quote]

The sad thing is that you ‘get it’ MORE than most Americans “get it”.

DoubleDuce · November 11, 2010, 8:25pm

[quote]florelius wrote:

about the other thing: I think you mix the concept of the state and socialism sir.

[/quote]

I think you are wrong to think there is a difference.

florelius · November 11, 2010, 9:48pm

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote: about the other thing: I think you mix the concept of the state and socialism sir.

[/quote]

National Socialism and the Marxist systems of socialism are (or were) the same thing: the government has full control of the means of production. The State decides what shall be produced and how. The State allots to each individual a share of consumer’s goods for his consumption.

The only difference between the systems is that the National Socialist pattern maintained nominal private ownership of the means of production and kept the appearance of ordinary prices, wages, and markets.

But in fact the State directed production decisions, curbed entrepreneurship and the labor market, and determined wages and interest rates by central authority. Market exchange under National Socialism was only a sham.

To put it terms you might understand:

The only difference between socialism or facism any of the other stateisms is the sales pitch.

It’s all the same crap packaged different.

A shit sandwich is a shit sandwich, whether you call it a Stalin-burger or a Quisling-burger.[/quote]

this have been discussed in the tread “obama on the daily show”. I have made my arguments about it there. I am not taking this debate again.

florelius · November 11, 2010, 9:53pm

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
I dont support people who send people over sea to kill others.
[/quote]

You mean, like the Taliban/Al-quadi flying planes into buildings in NYC? Or Iran sending proxies to Gaza to shell elementary schools in Israel? Or Iraq sending assasins to try to kill George Bush, the Elder?

Your one-sided non-interventionists crap is a transparent lie to everyone but youself.

The real truth is you (and most Europeans) hate America, hate Americans, look down on them, and yet are jealous of them and their success, and so revel in the USA getting put in its place.[/quote]

give me a fucking break. I dont hate americans, but I hate imperialism and therefor I hate american imperialism. I would not like chinese imperialism any better.

[/quote]

American imperialism? You mean like how they occupied Japan and all those European states and made them part of the American Empire?

Oh, no, wait, that was your hereos the Soviets and National Socialists who did that.

The Americans came, killed the bad guys, rebuilt the countries of their enemies and left as fast as they could fucking go. Doing the same thing in Iraq.

America is the LEAST Imperial superpower in the history of the world.

Again, no one is fooled by your bullshit. You hate Americans, you look down on them, and yet are jealous of them.

Me, I am not American, but I think America rocks.[/quote]

where have I said I hate americans, pleas find that qoute.

nazist are not my heroes. dude come on, there are others in this forum with way more nationalist and racist leanings than me.

sovjet soldiers are also not my heroes, but I respect theire effort in crushing the fascist movement.

I think its you who hates europeans, you look down on them but at the same time you are jealous of them.

have a nice day jewbacca.

orion · November 11, 2010, 10:00pm

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
I dont support people who send people over sea to kill others.
[/quote]

You mean, like the Taliban/Al-quadi flying planes into buildings in NYC? Or Iran sending proxies to Gaza to shell elementary schools in Israel? Or Iraq sending assasins to try to kill George Bush, the Elder?

Your one-sided non-interventionists crap is a transparent lie to everyone but youself.

The real truth is you (and most Europeans) hate America, hate Americans, look down on them, and yet are jealous of them and their success, and so revel in the USA getting put in its place.[/quote]

After havin waded through the muck that are some major Austrian political forums I must say you are half right.

Hate, yes, look down on them, yes, jealous no.

Never before have I read such uninformed, self righteous drivel and I swear that the weakest member on this board could crush them like a bug, both literally and in any debate, on any topic.

Oh, and Obama is their God.

Gotta get back there and start some serious shit.

Brother_Chris · November 11, 2010, 10:31pm

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
it should be renamed to “the fox forum” :P[/quote]

Hey, isn’t Norway the litle country that collaborated with the Nazis, somehow escaped justice for its crimes, and now gets by with socialism because it happened to sit on a bunch of oil that the Americans drill for them?[/quote]

ouch you need to check your history sources sir.

first off: norway where occupied by the nazis and the nazis put in charge a puppet administration consisting of norwegian fascists. the true elected administration fleed the country because they would have been killed by the nazis if they stayed. norwegians off all political colours formed para-military groups and sabotaged the nazis in norway. they also collaborated with the allies. On the other hand you had sweden who took a neutral stance, but who let the nazis drive equipment and troops with norway as destination trough theire country. and btw the swedish king had nazi sympathys. Maybe you mix sweden with norway. I want you to know that my fathers uncle sat in saxenhousen for opposition to the nazi occupation. He was a communist btw.

second: Norway is not a socialist country. We have capitalism with a welfare state, usa does also have a welfare state( not saying identical with the norwian one, but still a welfare state). would you call them socialist?

third: Today norway drill theire own oil, but we had help from american petrolium companies to start our oil industry. Israel on the other hand have gotten and still gets economic help from usa. So maybe its you thats living in a “socialist paradis” in the dessert sponsored by american tax dollars.

fifth: was it as good for you as it was for me?

shalom.

[/quote]

So…you’re anti-Semitic?

Yes, Norway is socialist, yes America is socialist. How come the leaders fled? Your duly elected leaders were put in position for a reason, yet they left and let an injustice occur. Letting something happen without opposition is equivalent to doing it yourself. I’m glad you great uncle was an opposition to the Nazi party, however your representative government of duly elected officials did nothing.

Capitalism with a welfare state is an oxymoron, you sound like a MM news commentator.

Yes, like Saudi Arabia drills their own oil…that they took from America.

Brother_Chris · November 11, 2010, 10:35pm

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
To the op, when you elect the most liberal, and inexperienced man in the history of our country to the highest office in the land you’ll have to expect that there will be a multitude of critics. Look at what the press did to GW and he was superb in comparison to Obama. Honestly, I’m still trying to find just one thing that Obama has done that is actually helping our country. If I didn’t know better (and some days I don’t) I’d swear he’s actually trying to harm us.

One more point, I’m actually surprised at the number of defenders that Obama has on this site. But then again if you take away all of the foreigners, and the 20 year old self-proclaimed socialists (awe they’re so cute), he doesn’t have many protectors. [/quote]

wtf

I am a foreigner and a 24 year old self-proclaimed socialist and I am no obama supporter, I just react
when alzeimers pasients like you try to lump him in with my group( socialist ). I dont support people who
send people over sea to kill others.

[/quote]

You don’t get a choice young buck, Obama is a socialists whether you wanna consider him a fascist or a communist he’s under the label of socialist.

florelius · November 11, 2010, 10:41pm

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
it should be renamed to “the fox forum” :P[/quote]

Hey, isn’t Norway the litle country that collaborated with the Nazis, somehow escaped justice for its crimes, and now gets by with socialism because it happened to sit on a bunch of oil that the Americans drill for them?[/quote]

ouch you need to check your history sources sir.

first off: norway where occupied by the nazis and the nazis put in charge a puppet administration consisting of norwegian fascists. the true elected administration fleed the country because they would have been killed by the nazis if they stayed. norwegians off all political colours formed para-military groups and sabotaged the nazis in norway. they also collaborated with the allies. On the other hand you had sweden who took a neutral stance, but who let the nazis drive equipment and troops with norway as destination trough theire country. and btw the swedish king had nazi sympathys. Maybe you mix sweden with norway. I want you to know that my fathers uncle sat in saxenhousen for opposition to the nazi occupation. He was a communist btw.

second: Norway is not a socialist country. We have capitalism with a welfare state, usa does also have a welfare state( not saying identical with the norwian one, but still a welfare state). would you call them socialist?

third: Today norway drill theire own oil, but we had help from american petrolium companies to start our oil industry. Israel on the other hand have gotten and still gets economic help from usa. So maybe its you thats living in a “socialist paradis” in the dessert sponsored by american tax dollars.

fifth: was it as good for you as it was for me?

shalom.

[/quote]

So…you’re anti-Semitic?

Yes, Norway is socialist, yes America is socialist. How come the leaders fled? Your duly elected leaders were put in position for a reason, yet they left and let an injustice occur. Letting something happen without opposition is equivalent to doing it yourself. I’m glad you great uncle was an opposition to the Nazi party, however your representative government of duly elected officials did nothing.

Capitalism with a welfare state is an oxymoron, you sound like a MM news commentator.

Yes, like Saudi Arabia drills their own oil…that they took from America. [/quote]

how the fuck did I become a antisemit? please explain this to me?

usa and norway are capitalist countrys. they have privat property, they have an marked economy, theire upperclass are the burgeouis and the incentiv for production are capital proffit. whats socialist about that?

and to the thing about saudi arabia. wtf, isnt the saudi oil in saudi arabia.

florelius · November 11, 2010, 10:39pm

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
To the op, when you elect the most liberal, and inexperienced man in the history of our country to the highest office in the land you’ll have to expect that there will be a multitude of critics. Look at what the press did to GW and he was superb in comparison to Obama. Honestly, I’m still trying to find just one thing that Obama has done that is actually helping our country. If I didn’t know better (and some days I don’t) I’d swear he’s actually trying to harm us.

One more point, I’m actually surprised at the number of defenders that Obama has on this site. But then again if you take away all of the foreigners, and the 20 year old self-proclaimed socialists (awe they’re so cute), he doesn’t have many protectors. [/quote]

wtf

I am a foreigner and a 24 year old self-proclaimed socialist and I am no obama supporter, I just react
when alzeimers pasients like you try to lump him in with my group( socialist ). I dont support people who
send people over sea to kill others.

[/quote]

You don’t get a choice young buck, Obama is a socialists whether you wanna consider him a fascist or a communist he’s under the label of socialist.[/quote]

nope, he is socialliberal.

rageradios · November 11, 2010, 10:43pm

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
America is the LEAST Imperial superpower in the history of the world.
[/quote]

This is what could be referred to as completely false.
The American system of economics is what could readily be described as mercantilism much more than capitalism. We use our military might to gain favorable trade conditions with other countries.

Brother_Chris · November 11, 2010, 10:43pm

[quote]florelius wrote:
crushing the fascist movement.
[/quote]

What’s the difference between communism and fascism? Whether you work for Mercedes or own Mercedes.

Jewbacca · November 11, 2010, 10:51pm

[quote]rageradios wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
America is the LEAST Imperial superpower in the history of the world.
[/quote]

This is what could be referred to as completely false.
The American system of economics is what could readily be described as mercantilism much more than capitalism. We use our military might to gain favorable trade conditions with other countries.[/quote]

Yeah, 'cause there is so much trade in Afganistan. You need to corner the market in . . . dirt and rocks.

And Iraq. I love how American might was used to secure a favorable oil deal for . . . China.

And when you invaded Japan, and even nuked them, I love how you dumped your goods there, squashed the native industry, and kept them as a satelite power, beholden to the USA.

Sorry, if the USA was “mercantilist,” it’s the most piss-poor mecantilist in the history of the world.

Like the other anti-American poster (Although I guess you are a self-loathing American), no one (but perhaps you) fall for this crap. It’s pseudo-intellectual garbage designed to hide the fact you don’t like America behind a cloud of weasel.

Brother_Chris · November 11, 2010, 10:57pm

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
it should be renamed to “the fox forum” :P[/quote]

Hey, isn’t Norway the litle country that collaborated with the Nazis, somehow escaped justice for its crimes, and now gets by with socialism because it happened to sit on a bunch of oil that the Americans drill for them?[/quote]

ouch you need to check your history sources sir.

first off: norway where occupied by the nazis and the nazis put in charge a puppet administration consisting of norwegian fascists. the true elected administration fleed the country because they would have been killed by the nazis if they stayed. norwegians off all political colours formed para-military groups and sabotaged the nazis in norway. they also collaborated with the allies. On the other hand you had sweden who took a neutral stance, but who let the nazis drive equipment and troops with norway as destination trough theire country. and btw the swedish king had nazi sympathys. Maybe you mix sweden with norway. I want you to know that my fathers uncle sat in saxenhousen for opposition to the nazi occupation. He was a communist btw.

second: Norway is not a socialist country. We have capitalism with a welfare state, usa does also have a welfare state( not saying identical with the norwian one, but still a welfare state). would you call them socialist?

third: Today norway drill theire own oil, but we had help from american petrolium companies to start our oil industry. Israel on the other hand have gotten and still gets economic help from usa. So maybe its you thats living in a “socialist paradis” in the dessert sponsored by american tax dollars.

fifth: was it as good for you as it was for me?

shalom.

[/quote]

So…you’re anti-Semitic?

Yes, Norway is socialist, yes America is socialist. How come the leaders fled? Your duly elected leaders were put in position for a reason, yet they left and let an injustice occur. Letting something happen without opposition is equivalent to doing it yourself. I’m glad you great uncle was an opposition to the Nazi party, however your representative government of duly elected officials did nothing.

Capitalism with a welfare state is an oxymoron, you sound like a MM news commentator.

Yes, like Saudi Arabia drills their own oil…that they took from America. [/quote]

how the fuck did I become a antisemit? please explain this to me?

usa and norway are capitalist countrys. they have privat property, they have an marked economy, theire upperclass are the burgeouis and the incentiv for production are capital proffit. whats socialist about that?

and to the thing about saudi arabia. wtf, isnt the saudi oil in saudi arabia. [/quote]

Hey, buddy. It’s alright, if you don’t like the Jews you don’t have the ashamed of it (you did admit you have some small racial leanings, I’m guessing it’s that Nordic heritage). It’s like butt sex, it’s gonna happen so the harder you fight it the more painful it’s going to be for everyone. I suggest visitng your local synogogue and working out your feelings.

Yes, on a scale the United States would be a capatalist land. However, capitalism rejects government in its fullness. Germany had private property, no one is calling them a capitalist land, even though they did come up with some very good philosophy on capitalism. I am not sure what a marked economy is. Burgeouis descends all “classes in America” are you talking about my middle class grandfather that owns his own farm or the Walton’s or the corn cob and hot dog vender that owns his own cart that lives in a trailor park?

Your lack of knowledge astounds me. Stop reading sound bites, it gets annoying. American oil companies went to Saudi Arabia and drilled because SA couldn’t drill themselves. American oil companies made an agreement with SA that they would drill and pay them royalties. Saudi Arabia decided that after America put the technology in place that they’d push the American Companies out and take over production.

Brother_Chris · November 11, 2010, 10:57pm

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
To the op, when you elect the most liberal, and inexperienced man in the history of our country to the highest office in the land you’ll have to expect that there will be a multitude of critics. Look at what the press did to GW and he was superb in comparison to Obama. Honestly, I’m still trying to find just one thing that Obama has done that is actually helping our country. If I didn’t know better (and some days I don’t) I’d swear he’s actually trying to harm us.

One more point, I’m actually surprised at the number of defenders that Obama has on this site. But then again if you take away all of the foreigners, and the 20 year old self-proclaimed socialists (awe they’re so cute), he doesn’t have many protectors. [/quote]

wtf

I am a foreigner and a 24 year old self-proclaimed socialist and I am no obama supporter, I just react
when alzeimers pasients like you try to lump him in with my group( socialist ). I dont support people who
send people over sea to kill others.

[/quote]

You don’t get a choice young buck, Obama is a socialists whether you wanna consider him a fascist or a communist he’s under the label of socialist.[/quote]

nope, he is socialliberal. [/quote]

Socialist.

Jewbacca · November 11, 2010, 11:02pm

[quote]florelius wrote:
usa and norway are capitalist countrys. they have privat property, they have an marked economy, theire upperclass are the burgeouis and the incentiv for production are capital proffit. whats socialist about that?
[/quote]

Look, I went to the Soviet Union during the height of the cold war. The upperclass there was permanant, the Party Machine. There is always an “upperclass” and a “lowerclass.”

The difference between communism and capitalism is that, in capitalism, you can rise up out of the lower class.

In communism (or socialism), your government oligarchs make that impossible and keep the money and luxuries for themselves, while pandering to idiots like you who think its “fair” and “just” and other bullshit.

When any government gets beyond the very most basic stuff, it becomes like the mafia, sucking the population dry. It could be a king, a facists, a marxists, or a Brussels-based sex ring, its all the same eventually. It’s a shit sandwich, and you get the shit that drops on the floor.

All the government “retirement” programs, welfare programs — no matter how noble and well-intentioned to begin with — ultimately become a scam to fuck you and steal your time, treasure, and talent.

You seem like a nicely-intentioned guy. Socialism SOUNDS wonderful.

Kum-ba-fucking-ya, let’s get along.

Well, it’s a lie.

It’s a mechanism to take your shit, keep you docile and stupid, and make you a peasant, a serf.

florelius · November 11, 2010, 11:03pm