Religulous: The Movie

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i don’t think that, but it also does not say anything about anything. Are you trying to say that if highly educated people believe in god then there must be something to it? Or are you suggesting that educated people are somehow better at understanding themselves and their motivations for doing things?[/quote]

I am saying this thread is filled with insults against people who follow some form of religion focused on degrading them for their choice.

Sure, you can say that is your right, but if you come to me claiming I am “illogical”, “petty” or any other adjective meant to make it seem as if I am beneath you in some way intellectually for a belief I have, expect for a response that questions your own intellectual prowess.

How is this not understood after all of these posts?

[quote]

…it does appear as if you think that educated people, or people who have somehow made a difference in this world, are better equiped at understanding life and reality? Perhaps that’s true for [some] scientists, but you’ll find few religious believers amongst those people. No, education does not matter that much in relation to having, or not having, religious beliefs…[/quote]

That wasn’t the point.

You will also find scientists who do believe in God so what point are YOU trying to make?

The average person can’t even figure out how to lift weights on their own without someone holding their hand and telling them exactly what to do. Hopefully you are not basing your concept of religion on the average person who, today, lacks common sense greatly and chooses to have someone tell them what to think.

102

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…i don’t think that, but it also does not say anything about anything. Are you trying to say that if highly educated people believe in god then there must be something to it? Or are you suggesting that educated people are somehow better at understanding themselves and their motivations for doing things?

I am saying this thread is filled with insults against people who follow some form of religion focused on degrading them for their choice.

Sure, you can say that is your right, but if you come to me claiming I am “illogical”, “petty” or any other adjective meant to make it seem as if I am beneath you in some way intellectually for a belief I have, expect for a response that questions your own intellectual prowess.

How is this not understood after all of these posts?[/quote]

…the PWI forum is inhabited by believers/christians who have no problems with insulting non-believers, gays or muslims upto the point of character assassination, and yet if an atheist speaks out against believers suddenly that’s wrong because it’s perceived as insulting. I don’t buy that…

[quote]…it does appear as if you think that educated people, or people who have somehow made a difference in this world, are better equiped at understanding life and reality? Perhaps that’s true for [some] scientists, but you’ll find few religious believers amongst those people. No, education does not matter that much in relation to having, or not having, religious beliefs…

That wasn’t the point.[/quote]

…what was your point then?

[quote]…i will say that, for many believer i’ve encounter in the last 10 years on the web, intellectual laziness and the fear of ones inner demons makes them turn to an imaginary friend like god/allah/elohim, or whatever you want to call whatever it is you care to believe in. Pressure from family, society and culture playes a big role obviously. As Maher puts it: i get it, i really do but… come on already!

The average person can’t even figure out how to lift weights on their own without someone holding their hand and telling them exactly what to do. Hopefully you are not basing your concept of religion on the average person who, today, lacks common sense greatly and chooses to have someone tell them what to think.[/quote]

…ofcourse i do. It’s those people who, in any religion, are manipulated to believe anything a politician or religious leader tells them, as long as the masses believe the politician or religious leader is a representative of their god. This is what religion was invented for: the control and manipulation of large groups of people to the benefit of a few. This is what most atheists protest against: the willful ignorance of the masses in favor of an imaginary ubermensch…

103

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…the PWI forum is inhabited by believers/christians who have no problems with insulting non-believers, gays or muslims upto the point of character assassination, and yet if an atheist speaks out against believers suddenly that’s wrong because it’s perceived as insulting. I don’t buy that…[/quote]

Please. I avoid this place most of the time, not because of the “believers/christians” but because it has become filled with closed minded fear mongers and trolls who act like the world is about to end.

This thread, however, began in another forum and was MOVED here. So, again, where are the insults here against “atheists”? Found any yet? All of them seem to be coming from the direction of “denial” crowd.

If you don’t get it by now, maybe it is simply too far beneath your massive intelligence.

Wait, so your problem isn’t really with religion but with the human condition? Why blame religion for the existence of blind followers and stupid people? You do realize these things exist outside of religion making your argument pointless at best?

104

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the PWI forum is inhabited by believers/christians who have no problems with insulting non-believers, gays or muslims upto the point of character assassination, and yet if an atheist speaks out against believers suddenly that’s wrong because it’s perceived as insulting. I don’t buy that…

[/quote]

Oh no, feel free to insult us. A Christianity that isn’t being insulted in today’s world, would be like some kind of watered down “screw anything that moves, abort the consequences” cafeteria Christianity. Insults and outright hatred helps us know we’re “keeping it real.” I think that’s the first time I’ve ever used the phrase “keeping it real…”

105

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…the PWI forum is inhabited by believers/christians who have no problems with insulting non-believers, gays or muslims upto the point of character assassination, and yet if an atheist speaks out against believers suddenly that’s wrong because it’s perceived as insulting. I don’t buy that…

Please. I avoid this place most of the time, not because of the “believers/christians” but because it has become filled with closed minded fear mongers and trolls who act like the world is about to end.

This thread, however, began in another forum and was MOVED here. So, again, where are the insults here against “atheists”? Found any yet? All of them seem to be coming from the direction of “denial” crowd.[/quote]

…your posts in this thread, altough you will most certainly argue you were provoked, are a fine example of how it’s okay to insult atheists. Mind you, you started this by commenting on something from another site, and not because of a post made before someone posted the ‘no atheists in foxholes’ link. You then went on a tangent of sorts ending in you being the victim here. Don’t buy that either…

[quote]…what was your point then?

If you don’t get it by now, maybe it is simply too far beneath your massive intelligence.[/quote]

…it must be considering you thought this all was an insult to your intelligence. Which it clearly wasn’t. Your ego is simply bigger than your IQ…

[quote]…ofcourse i do. It’s those people who, in any religion, are manipulated to believe anything a politician or religious leader tells them, as long as the masses believe the politician or religious leader is a representative of their god. This is what religion was invented for: the control and manipulation of large groups of people to the benefit of a few. This is what most atheists protest against: the willful ignorance of the masses in favor of an imaginary ubermensch…

Wait, so your problem isn’t really with religion but with the human condition? Why blame religion for the existence of blind followers and stupid people? You do realize these things exist outside of religion making your argument pointless at best?
[/quote]

…i blame religion for the existence of blind followers because religion, and it’s leaders, can only thrive if the flock of willful ignorant people stayes as large as possible. It’s this huge flock, regardless of denomination, that grants power to those who’ll abuse it, and it’s this flock that acts on the will of it’s leaders which does not benefit mankind as a whole. Since our society changed so much over the past 200 years and we are now capable of thoroughly destroying us all, instead of just a [relatively] small portion of the planet, i think i have a very strong argument against religion…

106

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i blame religion for the existence of blind followers because religion, and it’s leaders, can only thrive if the flock of willful ignorant people stayes as large as possible. It’s this huge flock, regardless of denomination, that grants power to those who’ll abuse it, and it’s this flock that acts on the will of it’s leaders which does not benefit mankind as a whole. Since our society changed so much over the past 200 years and we are now capable of thoroughly destroying us all, instead of just a [relatively] small portion of the planet, i think i have a very strong argument against religion…

[/quote]

This doesn’t make any LOGICAL sense. How can you blame religion for the existence of “blind followers” when they exist outside of religion?

You have more to fear from political “blind followers” then some old woman with a Bible.

Maybe your bias is clouding your logic…or maybe your logic works at a different frequency than for the rest of us.

One thing is clear, you have issues with religion. All else is just shit you throw in for justification.

107

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…the PWI forum is inhabited by believers/christians who have no problems with insulting non-believers, gays or muslims upto the point of character assassination, and yet if an atheist speaks out against believers suddenly that’s wrong because it’s perceived as insulting. I don’t buy that…

Please. I avoid this place most of the time, not because of the “believers/christians” but because it has become filled with closed minded fear mongers and trolls who act like the world is about to end.

This thread, however, began in another forum and was MOVED here. So, again, where are the insults here against “atheists”? Found any yet? All of them seem to be coming from the direction of “denial” crowd.

…what was your point then?

If you don’t get it by now, maybe it is simply too far beneath your massive intelligence.

…ofcourse i do. It’s those people who, in any religion, are manipulated to believe anything a politician or religious leader tells them, as long as the masses believe the politician or religious leader is a representative of their god. This is what religion was invented for: the control and manipulation of large groups of people to the benefit of a few. This is what most atheists protest against: the willful ignorance of the masses in favor of an imaginary ubermensch…

Wait, so your problem isn’t really with religion but with the human condition? Why blame religion for the existence of blind followers and stupid people? You do realize these things exist outside of religion making your argument pointless at best?
[/quote]

There is exactly zero point in trying to talk to this guy. He’s another superior northern European atheist.

Having just witnessed it firsthand, apparently northern Germans look down on Bavarians for having too much religion and not being atheistic enough.

Hard to imagine that the same country that 100 years ago was producing guys like Abraham Kuyper is now producing so many people like Ephrem, but it’s true.

108

[quote]Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…the PWI forum is inhabited by believers/christians who have no problems with insulting non-believers, gays or muslims upto the point of character assassination, and yet if an atheist speaks out against believers suddenly that’s wrong because it’s perceived as insulting. I don’t buy that…

Oh no, feel free to insult us. A Christianity that isn’t being insulted in today’s world, would be like some kind of watered down “screw anything that moves, abort the consequences” cafeteria Christianity. Insults and outright hatred helps us know we’re “keeping it real.” I think that’s the first time I’ve ever used the phrase “keeping it real…”[/quote]

…i have no inclination to insult christians or muslims or jews or anyone that believes in a supernatural being, an afterlife or higher purpose. Stating that i think those beliefs are irrational may be perceived as insulting, but are they really? In essence these beliefs are irrational, so how can stating something that’s true be an insult?

109

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…i blame religion for the existence of blind followers because religion, and it’s leaders, can only thrive if the flock of willful ignorant people stayes as large as possible. It’s this huge flock, regardless of denomination, that grants power to those who’ll abuse it, and it’s this flock that acts on the will of it’s leaders which does not benefit mankind as a whole. Since our society changed so much over the past 200 years and we are now capable of thoroughly destroying us all, instead of just a [relatively] small portion of the planet, i think i have a very strong argument against religion…

This doesn’t make any LOGICAL sense. How can you blame religion for the existence of “blind followers” when they exist outside of religion?

You have more to fear from political “blind followers” then some old woman with a Bible.

Maybe your bias is clouding your logic…or maybe your logic works at a different frequency than for the rest of us.

One thing is clear, you have issues with religion. All else is just shit you throw in for justification.[/quote]

…who’s talking about an old woman? I’m talking about, for instance, the large christian constituency who voted for Bush because he’s supposed to be a born again christian. I’m talking about the huge number of socalled moderate muslims in the west who go to mass every friday to listen to some immam urging them to denounce democracy in favor of islamic law. You’re trying to confuse the issue by being obtuse, but that doesn’t fly. Religion is a tool, and it’s being used for all the wrong reasons…

110

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Professor X wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…the PWI forum is inhabited by believers/christians who have no problems with insulting non-believers, gays or muslims upto the point of character assassination, and yet if an atheist speaks out against believers suddenly that’s wrong because it’s perceived as insulting. I don’t buy that…

Please. I avoid this place most of the time, not because of the “believers/christians” but because it has become filled with closed minded fear mongers and trolls who act like the world is about to end.

This thread, however, began in another forum and was MOVED here. So, again, where are the insults here against “atheists”? Found any yet? All of them seem to be coming from the direction of “denial” crowd.

…what was your point then?

If you don’t get it by now, maybe it is simply too far beneath your massive intelligence.

…ofcourse i do. It’s those people who, in any religion, are manipulated to believe anything a politician or religious leader tells them, as long as the masses believe the politician or religious leader is a representative of their god. This is what religion was invented for: the control and manipulation of large groups of people to the benefit of a few. This is what most atheists protest against: the willful ignorance of the masses in favor of an imaginary ubermensch…

Wait, so your problem isn’t really with religion but with the human condition? Why blame religion for the existence of blind followers and stupid people? You do realize these things exist outside of religion making your argument pointless at best?

There is exactly zero point in trying to talk to this guy. He’s another superior northern European atheist.

Having just witnessed it firsthand, apparently northern Germans look down on Bavarians for having too much religion and not being atheistic enough.

Hard to imagine that the same country that 100 years ago was producing guys like Abraham Kuyper is now producing so many people like Ephrem, but it’s true. [/quote]

…it’s even sadder to see how the US turned out inspite of it’s Founding Fathers…

111

[quote]ephrem wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Professor X wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…the PWI forum is inhabited by believers/christians who have no problems with insulting non-believers, gays or muslims upto the point of character assassination, and yet if an atheist speaks out against believers suddenly that’s wrong because it’s perceived as insulting. I don’t buy that…

Please. I avoid this place most of the time, not because of the “believers/christians” but because it has become filled with closed minded fear mongers and trolls who act like the world is about to end.

This thread, however, began in another forum and was MOVED here. So, again, where are the insults here against “atheists”? Found any yet? All of them seem to be coming from the direction of “denial” crowd.

…what was your point then?

If you don’t get it by now, maybe it is simply too far beneath your massive intelligence.

…ofcourse i do. It’s those people who, in any religion, are manipulated to believe anything a politician or religious leader tells them, as long as the masses believe the politician or religious leader is a representative of their god. This is what religion was invented for: the control and manipulation of large groups of people to the benefit of a few. This is what most atheists protest against: the willful ignorance of the masses in favor of an imaginary ubermensch…

Wait, so your problem isn’t really with religion but with the human condition? Why blame religion for the existence of blind followers and stupid people? You do realize these things exist outside of religion making your argument pointless at best?

There is exactly zero point in trying to talk to this guy. He’s another superior northern European atheist.

Having just witnessed it firsthand, apparently northern Germans look down on Bavarians for having too much religion and not being atheistic enough.

Hard to imagine that the same country that 100 years ago was producing guys like Abraham Kuyper is now producing so many people like Ephrem, but it’s true.

…it’s even sadder to see how the US turned out inspite of it’s Founding Fathers…

[/quote]

Were the Founding Fathers alive today, you’d be whining about their backwardness while proclaiming your own superiority, just like you’re doing here on this thread (just look at the opinions you’ve expressed of Geert Wilders, for example, who holds to a lot of the same views as our own Founding Fathers). Were they to meet you, they’d probably think of you as some sort of effeminate toad or deviant of some type.

I laugh when make-up-wearing male Euros try to appeal to our Founding Fathers for their anti-Americanism, because all of these opinions on America that types like yourself espouse began way back in the 1800s in continental Europe - much closer to the time of our founding than you’d care to admit.

112

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
“There are no atheists in foxholes”

http://www.ffrf.org/foxholes/

There are PLENTY of military personnel and officers who lack belief in God.

Ha, I knew this thread would bring you out.

Welcome, Lonnie.

Seen the movie?[/quote]

I was going to stay silent until I read that quote. Its a huge slap in the face to the men and women who serve in the military who do not believe in God, in my opinion.

I’ve seen the movie. It was basically exactly what I thought it was going to be… Maher making light work of religious idiot.

Obviously, and Maher knows this, there are smart and intelligent people who will not be strapping on bombs(literally and figuratively) that believe in God and follow religion. But they are unfortunately the minority.

The point of the movie was that if we dont wake up, and all of this My God v. Your God bullshit continues to escalate, it will be the gas that ignites the final fire. The middle east has basically been one huge clusterfuck for thousands of years because of this exact dispute.

113

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
“There are no atheists in foxholes”

http://www.ffrf.org/foxholes/

There are PLENTY of military personnel and officers who lack belief in God.

That quote isn’t referencing whether atheists exist or not in the military. Also, that website you linked is AMAZING. How does being an atheist make one a “free thinker”? Someone firm in their belief that there is no higher intelligence in the entire universe beyond human potential isn’t doing any more “free” thinking outside of that possibility.

If anything, agnostics would earn that title.[/quote]

The quote, There are NO atheists in foxholes, while it doesnt specifically state whether atheists exist in the military or not, certainly seems to suggest it.

The only other “meaning” I can think of for the quote is that the reason people believe in God is because of their fear of death. Pretty sad either way in my opinion.

The origins of the word “Free Thinker” trace back to the Germans who coined the phrase. The term, while I dont particularly care for it myself, is suppose to encompass a wide variety of people (Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics…) who do not follow religious DOGMA, and thus are free to think for things on their own instead of having the church think for them.

I dont know where you read that Atheists believe “that there is no higher intelligence in the entire universe beyond human potential” … Its simply a lack of belief in a God. God, as is an all powerful, all knowing, creator of the universe. I dont know ANY atheist that is willing to go so far as to say there is no possible being with higher intelligence than humans. There certainly is no evidence that they exists however.

114

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
“There are no atheists in foxholes”

http://www.ffrf.org/foxholes/

There are PLENTY of military personnel and officers who lack belief in God.

That quote isn’t referencing whether atheists exist or not in the military. Also, that website you linked is AMAZING. How does being an atheist make one a “free thinker”? Someone firm in their belief that there is no higher intelligence in the entire universe beyond human potential isn’t doing any more “free” thinking outside of that possibility.

If anything, agnostics would earn that title.

The quote, There are NO atheists in foxholes, while it doesnt specifically state whether atheists exist in the military or not, certainly seems to suggest it.

The only other “meaning” I can think of for the quote is that the reason people believe in God is because of their fear of death. Pretty sad either way in my opinion.

The origins of the word “Free Thinker” trace back to the Germans who coined the phrase. The term, while I dont particularly care for it myself, is suppose to encompass a wide variety of people (Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics…) who do not follow religious DOGMA, and thus are free to think for things on their own instead of having the church think for them.

I dont know where you read that Atheists believe “that there is no higher intelligence in the entire universe beyond human potential” … Its simply a lack of belief in a God. God, as is an all powerful, all knowing, creator of the universe. I dont know ANY atheist that is willing to go so far as to say there is no possible being with higher intelligence than humans. There certainly is no evidence that they exists however.[/quote]

I took that quote to mean that an atheist or agnostic, when faced with a life or death situation, will/can abandon their lack of belief and start believing in God.

To me, the only thing that points out is that human beings, when put in a situation where their very life is at risk, will abandon a strongly held belief in order to try and comfort themselves.

115

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i blame religion for the existence of blind followers because religion, and it’s leaders, can only thrive if the flock of willful ignorant people stayes as large as possible. It’s this huge flock, regardless of denomination, that grants power to those who’ll abuse it, and it’s this flock that acts on the will of it’s leaders which does not benefit mankind as a whole. Since our society changed so much over the past 200 years and we are now capable of thoroughly destroying us all, instead of just a [relatively] small portion of the planet, i think i have a very strong argument against religion…[/quote]

No, you don’t, because nothing you described is an inherent problem for religion - what you describe are inherent problems with anything Man creates, deals in, or institutionalizes.

Your beef is with the crooked timber of humanity, not with religion - and religion, despite its flaws, is one of the few things that actually mitigates some of humanity’s worst excesses. Don’t worry, so does Reason, but neither does the job by itself - and their tension is indispensable.

116

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…it’s even sadder to see how the US turned out inspite of it’s Founding Fathers…[/quote]

Sadly, you are right, but for none of the right reasons.

117

I have not seen the movie yet, but I am a huge fan of Bill Maher and I suspect I’ll enjoy it.

I have read quickly through the thread and want to say that while I think that most of organized religion is goofy bullshit, I still believe that there is some greater force around that is the prime mover of the world.

I’m just not sure whether it’s the Catholic god, the Roman Gods, the Celtic gods, the flying spaghetti monster, or whatever. Sometimes I suspect Maher is of the same ilk because he has said at different times that he believes in God. He’s also said that he’s an atheist too, so I’m assuming he’s not quite sure either.

Maher, I’m sure, ridicules those who are blind followers of religion, but he will also ridicule those that are blind followers of political parties, both Republican and Democrat. If you watch his show regularly, you will also see that he bashes Democrats for being pussies very often, and is beginning to pick out things that Obama has done that he doesn’t agree with. So just be careful what you say about the guy, he is not a party shill, a religion shill, or anything else.

118

[quote]Professor X wrote:
dhickey wrote:

What baffles me is people of a particular faith that think other religions are silly. To me, mormonism, Scientology, Greek mythology, or praying to the sun god are equal on the logic scale.

What bothers me is non-geniuses acting like they are ruled by logic and that others are “silly” for believing in God.

[/quote]

X, you’ve had some decent posts on this thread.

However, remember, a lot of non-geniuses react that way not necessarily because others believe in God, but that they let that belief in a very certain type of God dictate their political views and attribute it to the fact that a 2,000 year old text specifically addresses whatever argument they’re talking about, and that’s how they reached their conclusion.

That is not free thought, that is using a crutch to base your political beliefs on. Very often, this comes hand-in-hand with a severe closemindedness about anything that the book doesn’t address. This is not exclusive to Christians, of course, but they tend to scream the loudest on this particular board (although I admit, it is no where near the level it used to be, and most conversations here tend to leave God out).

119

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

This is not exclusive to Christians, of course, but they tend to scream the loudest on this particular board (although I admit, it is no where near the level it used to be, and most conversations here tend to leave God out).

[/quote]

That reminds me, has anyone heard from steveo5801 lately? You don’t suppose he’s departed from this world and entered into the Throne Room of Almighty God, do you?

Now there was a religulous fellow if ever there was. And I mean that in the best possible way.

120

[quote]ephrem wrote:
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh

[/quote]

If you really didnt have anything to add to the this old and tired attack on Christianity then you should have just left it alone. Have you even read the sources you posted?

From your own source:
“There is no foundation whatsoever for the assertion which has so often been made that the Two Accounts of the Creation which are given in the early chapters in Genesis are derived from the Seven Tablets of Creation.” Why dont you read it yourself and note how many times they write things like: we assume, we think, what they probably meant was…

The other source, though I would hardly even call it that, is a translation of the twelve tablets that were written somewhere between 1300-1000 BC. This was well after the Jews were writing down their history and writing scripture.
The only fragments that pre-date the oldest books of the bible hold little information and are only used to fill in gaps in the standard version (1000 BC?) where people think they should fit.

Other than the ocassional reference to actual people it’s just a bunch of made up nonsense, along with most myths, whereas the bible has a wealth of historical facts with archaeology to back it.

The only real parallel I could find was the story of a flood, which is found in many ancient writings. A person like myself could infer that the widespread belief in a great flood, no matter of your culture or religion, is evidence for it. While a skeptic would maintain its myth borrowing from myth. Go ahead and hold that position, but your inadequate sources have done nothing for the argument that Christianity has borrowed from mythology.

If you are merely contending that people other than Jews and Christians have long held beliefs that there was a Creation, a God, eternal life, etc. then ya, no shit buddy. What then does that prove about your made up correlation between Christianity and pagan myths?