Religulous: The Movie

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
203

[quote]dhickey wrote:
haney1 wrote:
sigh
Why oh Why does every still hold this idea of hell being a physical fire that burns are non-physical entity like a soul?

A little off topic, but everyone should read Dante’s Inferno at some point. The most creative description of hell I have come across. Purgatory and Paradise aren’t as good as Inferno.
[/quote]

Slightly less off topic, but the bible does refer to hell as a place of fire and brimstone, and then theres something about worms eating you forever I think. I could be wrong on that last part though.

204

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
You can take a bunch of worldviews, put them on your table, sort them out and start to compare them. You’ll find striking similarities. E.g. argumentation.
I said that Steveo’s argument bow or burn is a strong one, sometimes maybe as a tool for proselytizing too, but mainly as a tool to strenghten his fortress of faith (fortress is actually a better word than castle to convey the idea).
Now, the point where I intruded was when you expressed the idea that it was god’s duty to convince you. What you actually did there was that you presented an argument thats main function is to strengthen the fortress, in this case your fortress. It definitely has no power to convince a believer when you say that god owes you something.

Well, that’s all I had to say about that, I think. Thank you for the recommendation. I will read the book, I like Sagan.
[/quote]

Ahhh, good point. I can definitely see that. Although I think logically speaking it does carry a fair amount of weight, and that it might at least make a believer think twice.

And yeah… Sagan is one of the all time greats.

205

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
anonym wrote:
Did the spirit offer its two cents on getting your little girl a vibrator?

Yep. It told me that exposing hypocrits is a GOOD thing, you know, like those who prattle on about atheism/agnostism yet beg God’s forgiveness on their death beds. Witness the rank hypocrisy here.

in all honesty , what would be wrong with not knowing , and at the end covering your ass ?

the fact that it would be pointless. If you didn’t truly believe but claimed to just to get the good stuff, then if god were real he would see through your sham and you would be screwed. That is the problem with Pascal’s wager. You lose both ways.[/quote]

I would not see it as a sham, what makes you think if there is a god that he would not understand me questioning his existence?

206

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
kaaleppi wrote:

You seem to be allergic to the word faith. I don’t know what to say

You only have to ask yourself why you consider this a bad thing. I’m not “allergic to faith” with regards to many things, but these are usually rooted in some type of fact. If my mom invites me over for dinner I have faith that she will provide food when I show up. If my friend says they will pick me up to go downtown, I expect they will show up.

However, if you are asking me to have faith that their is an all powerful, all loving, all knowing God that wants to have a personal relationship with me because he loves me… but will send me to an eternal hell if I dont believe in him even though he does not provide ANY evidence for his existence, well now I dont know what to say.

You also may want to read Carl Sagans “Varieties of scientific experience” since we are recommending books to each other.[/quote]

One of my favorite books was Dragons of Eden, by Carl Sagan in it I think he does an excellent job of marrying creationism and evolution. I will have to check that one out, thanks

207

I was sick enough at one point that I was actually cheering for TB. They didn’t know what was wrong with me, I had been in ICU a few days, and that was the light weight pathogen in that batch of tests. Tubes in my chest, morphine drip being tapped like a keyboard, but I didn’t return to my Catholic roots.

At one time I was an outspoken atheist. Chicks hate that, so I learned to keep it to myself. As I’ve grown older I’ve become agnostic. I don’t think there’s an afterlife, and I don’t believe in any religion, but I can’t get my mind around how everything came to be without some sort of starting point…what was there before the big bang and that sort of thing. I understand the frustration that many have with religion. I don’t disagree with the idea it’s a crutch and has done much more harm then good. It’s just a fight you will never win…and as I’ve grown older I understand that most people that believe in a religion aren’t part of the hardcore 2% that start wars, blow up clinics, and all that bs.

208

I just watched the movie, and I thought it was pretty good (and I don’t like Bill Maher). Thanks for the heads up on this RSGZ.

209

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
haney1 wrote:
sigh
Why oh Why does every still hold this idea of hell being a physical fire that burns are non-physical entity like a soul?

A little off topic, but everyone should read Dante’s Inferno at some point. The most creative description of hell I have come across. Purgatory and Paradise aren’t as good as Inferno.

Slightly less off topic, but the bible does refer to hell as a place of fire and brimstone, and then theres something about worms eating you forever I think. I could be wrong on that last part though.[/quote]

Oh you are right it is in there and described like that, the problem is you are not allowing Jesus the ability to use language like a normal person might. If we have to say that every descrition given in the Bible has to be a literal description then we are forced to think that God has wings, and rides around on saddled angels.

You just can’t do that. The Bible is rich and full of literary images.

The Bible also says that in Hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Most people think that means it will be a personal torment of sorrow; However the term gnashing of teeth in every other reference in the Bible refers to anger and hatred towards something.

In a short description
In my opinion the “Fire” that burns the soul is figurative for the type of feeling one would have for rejecting God. Sort of like the feeling of regret when you made a really bad decision.

and one that note everyone should read CS Lewis the great divorce.

210

[quote]haney1 wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
haney1 wrote:
sigh
Why oh Why does every still hold this idea of hell being a physical fire that burns are non-physical entity like a soul?

A little off topic, but everyone should read Dante’s Inferno at some point. The most creative description of hell I have come across. Purgatory and Paradise aren’t as good as Inferno.

Slightly less off topic, but the bible does refer to hell as a place of fire and brimstone, and then theres something about worms eating you forever I think. I could be wrong on that last part though.

Oh you are right it is in there and described like that, the problem is you are not allowing Jesus the ability to use language like a normal person might. If we have to say that every descrition given in the Bible has to be a literal description then we are forced to think that God has wings, and rides around on saddled angels.

You just can’t do that. The Bible is rich and full of literary images.

The Bible also says that in Hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Most people think that means it will be a personal torment of sorrow; However the term gnashing of teeth in every other reference in the Bible refers to anger and hatred towards something.

In a short description
In my opinion the “Fire” that burns the soul is figurative for the type of feeling one would have for rejecting God. Sort of like the feeling of regret when you made a really bad decision.

and one that note everyone should read CS Lewis the great divorce.
[/quote]

I think the bible is an excellent book, if people were to fallow the 10 commandments, the world would be a better place, even better than the 10 commandments, would be the Golden rule. The world would be utopia if the golden rule would be observed by everybody, what I hate about religion is the feeling that they are superior, and in some cases the only one that is correct in their religion. They lose sight of being a good person because they can not see out of their dogma. I think religion is one of the worlds leading problems. Christian, Judaism and Muslim, for some reason Buddhists seem to be staying out of the fray.

211

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
haney1 wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
haney1 wrote:
sigh
Why oh Why does every still hold this idea of hell being a physical fire that burns are non-physical entity like a soul?

A little off topic, but everyone should read Dante’s Inferno at some point. The most creative description of hell I have come across. Purgatory and Paradise aren’t as good as Inferno.

Slightly less off topic, but the bible does refer to hell as a place of fire and brimstone, and then theres something about worms eating you forever I think. I could be wrong on that last part though.

Oh you are right it is in there and described like that, the problem is you are not allowing Jesus the ability to use language like a normal person might. If we have to say that every descrition given in the Bible has to be a literal description then we are forced to think that God has wings, and rides around on saddled angels.

You just can’t do that. The Bible is rich and full of literary images.

The Bible also says that in Hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Most people think that means it will be a personal torment of sorrow; However the term gnashing of teeth in every other reference in the Bible refers to anger and hatred towards something.

In a short description
In my opinion the “Fire” that burns the soul is figurative for the type of feeling one would have for rejecting God. Sort of like the feeling of regret when you made a really bad decision.

and one that note everyone should read CS Lewis the great divorce.

I think the bible is an excellent book, if people were to fallow the 10 commandments, the world would be a better place, even better than the 10 commandments, would be the Golden rule. The world would be utopia if the golden rule would be observed by everybody, what I hate about religion is the feeling that they are superior, and in some cases the only one that is correct in their religion. They lose sight of being a good person because they can not see out of their dogma. I think religion is one of the worlds leading problems. Christian, Judaism and Muslim, for some reason Buddhists seem to be staying out of the fray.
[/quote]

Everytime someone brings up religion I always think of Ghandi(story and quote to follow). Since I am a Christian I always try to deal with others with this in mind. I love my faith, and the truth I believe it represents, but some of the actions of my fellow believers make me sad.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/552.htm
Mahatma Gandhi is one of the most respected leaders of modern history. A Hindu, Ghandi nevertheless admired Jesus and often quoted from the Sermon on the Mount. Once when the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Ghandi he asked him, “Mr. Ghandi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?”

Ghandi replied, “Oh, I don’t reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It’s just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Apparently Ghandi’s rejection of Christianity grew out of an incident that happened when he was a young man practising law in South Africa. He had become attracted to the Christian faith, had studied the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, and was seriously exploring becoming a Christian. And so he decided to attend a church service. As he came up the steps of the large church where he intended to go, a white South African elder of the church barred his way at the door. “Where do you think you’re going, kaffir?” the man asked Ghandi in a belligerent tone of voice.

Ghandi replied, “I’d like to attend worship here.”

The church elder snarled at him, “There’s no room for kaffirs in this church. Get out of here or I’ll have my assistants throw you down the steps.”

From that moment, Ghandi said, he decided to adopt what good he found in Christianity, but would never again consider becoming a Christian if it meant being part of the church.

212

[quote]haney1 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
haney1 wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
haney1 wrote:
sigh
Why oh Why does every still hold this idea of hell being a physical fire that burns are non-physical entity like a soul?

A little off topic, but everyone should read Dante’s Inferno at some point. The most creative description of hell I have come across. Purgatory and Paradise aren’t as good as Inferno.

Slightly less off topic, but the bible does refer to hell as a place of fire and brimstone, and then theres something about worms eating you forever I think. I could be wrong on that last part though.

Oh you are right it is in there and described like that, the problem is you are not allowing Jesus the ability to use language like a normal person might. If we have to say that every descrition given in the Bible has to be a literal description then we are forced to think that God has wings, and rides around on saddled angels.

You just can’t do that. The Bible is rich and full of literary images.

The Bible also says that in Hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Most people think that means it will be a personal torment of sorrow; However the term gnashing of teeth in every other reference in the Bible refers to anger and hatred towards something.

In a short description
In my opinion the “Fire” that burns the soul is figurative for the type of feeling one would have for rejecting God. Sort of like the feeling of regret when you made a really bad decision.

and one that note everyone should read CS Lewis the great divorce.

I think the bible is an excellent book, if people were to fallow the 10 commandments, the world would be a better place, even better than the 10 commandments, would be the Golden rule. The world would be utopia if the golden rule would be observed by everybody, what I hate about religion is the feeling that they are superior, and in some cases the only one that is correct in their religion. They lose sight of being a good person because they can not see out of their dogma. I think religion is one of the worlds leading problems. Christian, Judaism and Muslim, for some reason Buddhists seem to be staying out of the fray.

Everytime someone brings up religion I always think of Ghandi(story and quote to follow). Since I am a Christian I always try to deal with others with this in mind. I love my faith, and the truth I believe it represents, but some of the actions of my fellow believers make me sad.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/552.htm
Mahatma Gandhi is one of the most respected leaders of modern history. A Hindu, Ghandi nevertheless admired Jesus and often quoted from the Sermon on the Mount. Once when the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Ghandi he asked him, “Mr. Ghandi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?”

Ghandi replied, “Oh, I don’t reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It’s just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Apparently Ghandi’s rejection of Christianity grew out of an incident that happened when he was a young man practising law in South Africa. He had become attracted to the Christian faith, had studied the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, and was seriously exploring becoming a Christian. And so he decided to attend a church service. As he came up the steps of the large church where he intended to go, a white South African elder of the church barred his way at the door. “Where do you think you’re going, kaffir?” the man asked Ghandi in a belligerent tone of voice.

Ghandi replied, “I’d like to attend worship here.”

The church elder snarled at him, “There’s no room for kaffirs in this church. Get out of here or I’ll have my assistants throw you down the steps.”

From that moment, Ghandi said, he decided to adopt what good he found in Christianity, but would never again consider becoming a Christian if it meant being part of the church.

[/quote]

We agree

213

[quote]haney1 wrote:
From that moment, Ghandi said, he decided to adopt what good he found in Christianity, but would never again consider becoming a Christian if it meant being part of the church.

[/quote]

Or as Ambrose Bierce so aptly put it:

I dreamed I stood upon a hill, and, lo!
The godly multitudes walked to and fro
Beneath, in Sabbath garments fitly clad,
With pious mien, appropriately sad,
While all the church bells made a solemn din…
A fire-alarm to those who lived in sin.

Then saw I gazing thoughtfully below,
With tranquil face, upon that holy show
A tall, spare figure in a robe of white,
Whose eyes diffused a melancholy light.
“God keep you, stranger,” I exclaimed. “You are
No doubt (your habit shows it) from afar;
And yet I entertain the hope that you,
Like these good people, are a Christian too.”

He raised his eyes and with a look so stern
It made me with a thousand blushes burn
Replied (his manner with disdain was spiced):
"What! I a Christian? No, indeed!

…I’m Christ."

214

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
haney1 wrote:
From that moment, Ghandi said, he decided to adopt what good he found in Christianity, but would never again consider becoming a Christian if it meant being part of the church.

Or as Ambrose Bierce so aptly put it:

I dreamed I stood upon a hill, and, lo!
The godly multitudes walked to and fro
Beneath, in Sabbath garments fitly clad,
With pious mien, appropriately sad,
While all the church bells made a solemn din…
A fire-alarm to those who lived in sin.

Then saw I gazing thoughtfully below,
With tranquil face, upon that holy show
A tall, spare figure in a robe of white,
Whose eyes diffused a melancholy light.
“God keep you, stranger,” I exclaimed. “You are
No doubt (your habit shows it) from afar;
And yet I entertain the hope that you,
Like these good people, are a Christian too.”

He raised his eyes and with a look so stern
It made me with a thousand blushes burn
Replied (his manner with disdain was spiced):
"What! I a Christian? No, indeed!

…I’m Christ."[/quote]

I like and dislike that quote for the same reason.
Its truthfullness.

Good to see you alive and picking fights varq.

215

Some nice quotes there.

216

[quote]haney1 wrote:

Oh you are right it is in there and described like that, the problem is you are not allowing Jesus the ability to use language like a normal person might. If we have to say that every descrition given in the Bible has to be a literal description then we are forced to think that God has wings, and rides around on saddled angels.

You just can’t do that. The Bible is rich and full of literary images.

The Bible also says that in Hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Most people think that means it will be a personal torment of sorrow; However the term gnashing of teeth in every other reference in the Bible refers to anger and hatred towards something.

In a short description
In my opinion the “Fire” that burns the soul is figurative for the type of feeling one would have for rejecting God. Sort of like the feeling of regret when you made a really bad decision.

and one that note everyone should read CS Lewis the great divorce.
[/quote]

So wait… I cant interpret the bible the way I see it, but you are free to apply your opinion? If I were a God that wanted people to follow my words, I wouldnt hide them in allegory and two-talk. If I wanted people to really fear the idea of hell, I would make damn sure they knew exactly what it was, not infer its horror from a couple of lines that might mean this or that.

While I think fundamentalist religious people are typically the worst of the bunch, at least I repect them for having the integrity to follow the bible to the letter, and not vaguely interpret it to have it mean whatever they want it to mean.

217

[quote]haney1 wrote:

From that moment, Ghandi said, he decided to adopt what good he found in Christianity, but would never again consider becoming a Christian if it meant being part of the church.

[/quote]

I hope no one is getting the idea that atheists think there is nothing good about Christianity, or religion at large. Of course there are good things inside the books, and of course there are religious people that do good things. However, many of the principles of Christianity that are “good” are simply borrowed from humanists principles that had been around for thousands of years in the first place.

Being good to others, helping the poorest of the bunch, the golden rule… These are all basic principles of humanity, they need not be, nor were they, passed down from some supreme being.

Heres a principle that is decidedly unchristian, but I follow it anyway. Being good for goodness sake. Dont be good because it averts punishment and grants you everlasting life in heaven, just do it because its the right thing to do. You dont need the deterrent of punishment to not do bad things… Unless you are religious.

218

Someone needs to help me understand how religious people can completely redefine religion to fit the era in which they reside…and feel ok about it…

I just don’t see the point in following a doctrine if you are just going to change it every decade or so…

What happened to stoning the gays and lynching the blasphemers?

219

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
if people were to fallow the 10 commandments, the world would be a better place
[/quote]

If all the commandments were focused on morality, then sure. But they aren’t We have commandments dictating WHICH God we should follow. That’s BS.

Don’t kill, don’t steal.

220

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
haney1 wrote:

Oh you are right it is in there and described like that, the problem is you are not allowing Jesus the ability to use language like a normal person might. If we have to say that every descrition given in the Bible has to be a literal description then we are forced to think that God has wings, and rides around on saddled angels.

You just can’t do that. The Bible is rich and full of literary images.

The Bible also says that in Hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Most people think that means it will be a personal torment of sorrow; However the term gnashing of teeth in every other reference in the Bible refers to anger and hatred towards something.

In a short description
In my opinion the “Fire” that burns the soul is figurative for the type of feeling one would have for rejecting God. Sort of like the feeling of regret when you made a really bad decision.

and one that note everyone should read CS Lewis the great divorce.

So wait… I cant interpret the bible the way I see it, but you are free to apply your opinion? If I were a God that wanted people to follow my words, I wouldnt hide them in allegory and two-talk. If I wanted people to really fear the idea of hell, I would make damn sure they knew exactly what it was, not infer its horror from a couple of lines that might mean this or that.

While I think fundamentalist religious people are typically the worst of the bunch, at least I repect them for having the integrity to follow the bible to the letter, and not vaguely interpret it to have it mean whatever they want it to mean.[/quote]

No you can’t interpret it any way you want no one is able to do that. There are rules for interpretation which most lay people don’t know, nor do they care to apply to their study of the Bible.

as for your respect of fundies, it might be misplaced. they follow it literally until they can’t. The problem with what they do is they take the text and assume it is written in the 21st century and they allow for the use of hyperbole or many other types of communication only when it sutes thier interpretation all the while claiming they take it literally.

for instance no fundamentaltist thinks that when the Bible says God owns the cattle on 1000 hills that someone else owns the cattle on the 1001th hill. How about when Jesus says that these things shall happen in this generation(matthew 24). yet a fundamentalist think that this generation means something different than the actual generation in Jesus day and time. There is also the part in revelation where it says these things will happen soon, yet they have no problem believing that soon could really mean a long period of time, yet when asked about Genesis they rave about it being six literal days. You are talking to a former fundamentalist who learned how to read the Bible and I have since abbandoned many of my foolish ideas on how to read it.

I realize that this idea of hell not being a literal place of fire might come as a surprize, but many orthodox theologians believe my line of thought as well. most notably RC Sproul

He is a very well respected theologian as well, so it isn;t like this thought is coming out of left field.

I am hoping that this conversation could end since I am trying to keep my lurking status, sadly these conversations tend to draw me in.

221

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
haney1 wrote:

From that moment, Ghandi said, he decided to adopt what good he found in Christianity, but would never again consider becoming a Christian if it meant being part of the church.

I hope no one is getting the idea that atheists think there is nothing good about Christianity, or religion at large. Of course there are good things inside the books, and of course there are religious people that do good things. However, many of the principles of Christianity that are “good” are simply borrowed from humanists principles that had been around for thousands of years in the first place.

Being good to others, helping the poorest of the bunch, the golden rule… These are all basic principles of humanity, they need not be, nor were they, passed down from some supreme being.

Heres a principle that is decidedly unchristian, but I follow it anyway. Being good for goodness sake. Dont be good because it averts punishment and grants you everlasting life in heaven, just do it because its the right thing to do. You dont need the deterrent of punishment to not do bad things… Unless you are religious.[/quote]

I don’t think anyone had that idea. My posting of that was purely my personal philosophy when I deal with anyone especially when I am talking about faith.

as a Christian it is my duty to show Christ love to others. How can I do that by spewing hate filled words, and sitting in Church every sunday. I prefer to take my faith out and care for people the way Christ would care for them.

It isn’t to escape any punishment(since I believe that can’t be accomplished by me). I do it because I believe I am suppossed to show them the goodness of God.

When I debate with any athiest I usually try to do it with respect, and hope they can respect where I am coming from.
I don’t think I have made my decision to believe lightly, and I don’t think they have made thiers lightly either. In the end one of us will be right, but while we are here together it is important that we enrich each other lives, not take away.

222

[quote]haney1 wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
haney1 wrote:

From that moment, Ghandi said, he decided to adopt what good he found in Christianity, but would never again consider becoming a Christian if it meant being part of the church.

I hope no one is getting the idea that atheists think there is nothing good about Christianity, or religion at large. Of course there are good things inside the books, and of course there are religious people that do good things. However, many of the principles of Christianity that are “good” are simply borrowed from humanists principles that had been around for thousands of years in the first place.

Being good to others, helping the poorest of the bunch, the golden rule… These are all basic principles of humanity, they need not be, nor were they, passed down from some supreme being.

Heres a principle that is decidedly unchristian, but I follow it anyway. Being good for goodness sake. Dont be good because it averts punishment and grants you everlasting life in heaven, just do it because its the right thing to do. You dont need the deterrent of punishment to not do bad things… Unless you are religious.

I don’t think anyone had that idea. My posting of that was purely my personal philosophy when I deal with anyone especially when I am talking about faith.

as a Christian it is my duty to show Christ love to others. How can I do that by spewing hate filled words, and sitting in Church every sunday. I prefer to take my faith out and care for people the way Christ would care for them.

It isn’t to escape any punishment(since I believe that can’t be accomplished by me). I do it because I believe I am suppossed to show them the goodness of God.

When I debate with any athiest I usually try to do it with respect, and hope they can respect where I am coming from.
I don’t think I have made my decision to believe lightly, and I don’t think they have made thiers lightly either. In the end one of us will be right, but while we are here together it is important that we enrich each other lives, not take away.

[/quote]

Haney I respect your approach to these discussions and you seem like a good guy.

One question however; how do you know one of us (christians or atheists) will be right? What if muslims or Buddhists, etc, are right?