Religious Questions from the Faithful and the Believers

AceRock · March 21, 2014, 3:49am

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]MytchBucanan wrote:
Anytime I catch myself thinking life is meaningless, I find it is helpful to ask myself how would life/reality be different if it had meaning?[/quote]

This is the flip side of the “meaning of life” criticism of atheism.

Theists are happy to point out that atheism implies no objective morality or purpose.

But, if they are devout Christians–which, around here, they tend to be–what, in their view, is this meaning of life for which they are so grateful?

It is to please God. (To love him–because he wants you to. To do what he says–because he wants you to. In the end, it all reduces to pleasing God.) Some call it humility, others call it servility, slavery.

I’d love a universe with a generally disinterested God on whom morality can rely. Absent that, I would rather live a life without objective purpose than one whose purpose begins and ends with the pleasure of an omniscient suzerain.[/quote]

Well said, especially the suzerain part. Love that word, thanks for sharing it with me.

Agreed. I have a hard time believing anything so almighty is so desperate for attention. 238 did a good job comparing His love to that of a father, and although it doesn’t quite click with me, I can see that side of it a little better now.

smh_23 · March 21, 2014, 4:51pm

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

…I would rather live a life without objective purpose than one whose purpose begins and ends with the pleasure of an omniscient suzerain.[/quote]

You certainly have that choice. [/quote]

Do you really think that I do?

I mean, I can pretend that life is any way I’d like it to be. But if God exists in the way that you believe Him to, I really don’t have any choice whatsoever (in the end).

My point is simply that the meaninglessness of atheism is actually far, far more attractive to many people that is the purpose provided by “the big three.”

AceRock · March 21, 2014, 1:28pm

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If our self is an illusion, and all our “choices” are pretty much made by subconscious processes–with a phony sense of conscious decision constructed after the fact to keep up the illusion–are there really any free-thinkers?[/quote]

No, there are not any freethinkers.

If physicalism is incompatible with free will–and there are good arguments for such–then I shouldn’t have been punished for smoking a cigarette at the age of twelve.

Then again, my parents had as little choice in punishing me as I did in lighting the smoke.

The real answer to your question is this: If the dark aspects of physicalism (and physicalism itself) are true–and they really might be–then I want to ignore them in my day to day life, because acknowledgement of them will harm my ability to to things that I want to do, and will make me unhappy.

Notice that I’m talking about want. I want to be happy. Want and happy are both real. Whether there is any objective value in happiness or the satisfaction of want is irrelevant. There is subjective value, and subjective value is both real and very, very powerful.

All that having been said, I don’t think physicalism is the truth, and, if it is, I think it’s incomplete and will somehow allow for free will.[/quote]

I have several issues with this line of discussion.

Fist, Sloth, if I am understanding you correctly, you are describing determinism, based upon physicalism, with a touch of selflessness in for good measure. Please understand I’m not trying to create a strawman here, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. You’ve asked similar questions a couple times, if my memory serves me.

My take of selflessness does not take away our free will. It’s not a split between the subconscious and conscious mind where the battle takes place. I don’t believe I’m being controlled by my Id, and those mechanisms are being cleverly covered by my ego for one seamless experience.

To me, the self which we were discussing, and the lack thereof, is purely a construct of our conscious mind. That means that if you were to remove the self, “you” would still be conscious, “you” would still be in control. The concept of flow is somewhat similar. I have experienced selflessness in my life, and I don’t doubt many others have as well.

It is a direct experience of the world, without the mask of the ego. The best analogy I have is this: your mind is like the blue sky, and the self/ego are the clouds that block the sun. Even though you can’t see the sun, and the sky looks grey, the clouds don’t affect the blueness of the sky, nor the brightness of the sun. Those are constant (not really, but compared to the clouds; you get the point) and it doesn’t matter if there’s a hurricane or a snow storm (rage/hatred/jealousy), the reality is our “authentic selves” are clear and calm.

I cannot believe we are simple robots with a creepy program to make ourselves believe we make decisions that were made for us by our instincts/DNA/whatever. That doesn’t make any sense to me.

So, yes, I believe we are free-thinkers, some are just a little more clear than others.

smh_23 · March 21, 2014, 1:41pm

^ I will come back in for more discussion later hopefully, but just to put the argument in very broad strokes:

If all supervenes on the physical, then literally everything about “me”–beliefs, emotions, attachments, loves, jealousies, attractions, doubts, hatreds, etc.–is included. If elementary particles are all there actually is, and they behave as they do in accordance with physical laws such that every effect is a necessary consequence of the precise conditions under which it happened, then free will does not exist (and, I might add, it was prefigured in the first instant of the Big Bang that I would type exactly these words).

Some seem to believe that the possibility of quantum randomness averts the above nightmare. But randomness does not grant free will either.

There is a deeper and more sturdy argument, but I will save that one for later.

BTW, suzerain is one of my favorite words also haha. I thank Cormac McCarthy for giving me that one, long ago.

pat · March 21, 2014, 1:50pm

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

…I would rather live a life without objective purpose than one whose purpose begins and ends with the pleasure of an omniscient suzerain.[/quote]

You certainly have that choice. [/quote]

Do you really think that I do?

I mean, I can pretend to live any like I’d like. But if God exists in the way that you believe Him to, I really don’t have a choice (in the end).

My point is simply that the meaninglessness of atheism is actually far, far more attractive to many people that is the purpose provided by “the big three.”[/quote]

I would agree that’s the most attractive part to me.
If life is ultimately purposeless and I am really not here for any other reason than sheer luck, I certainly would cut some corners when it comes to doing hard things and avoid them altogether if I could. I would make life as easy and pleasing as I could.

MytchBucanan · March 21, 2014, 6:32pm

[quote]AceRock wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If our self is an illusion, and all our “choices” are pretty much made by subconscious processes–with a phony sense of conscious decision constructed after the fact to keep up the illusion–are there really any free-thinkers?[/quote]

No, there are not any freethinkers.

If physicalism is incompatible with free will–and there are good arguments for such–then I shouldn’t have been punished for smoking a cigarette at the age of twelve.

Then again, my parents had as little choice in punishing me as I did in lighting the smoke.

The real answer to your question is this: If the dark aspects of physicalism (and physicalism itself) are true–and they really might be–then I want to ignore them in my day to day life, because acknowledgement of them will harm my ability to to things that I want to do, and will make me unhappy.

Notice that I’m talking about want. I want to be happy. Want and happy are both real. Whether there is any objective value in happiness or the satisfaction of want is irrelevant. There is subjective value, and subjective value is both real and very, very powerful.

All that having been said, I don’t think physicalism is the truth, and, if it is, I think it’s incomplete and will somehow allow for free will.[/quote]

I have several issues with this line of discussion.

Fist, Sloth, if I am understanding you correctly, you are describing determinism, based upon physicalism, with a touch of selflessness in for good measure. Please understand I’m not trying to create a strawman here, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. You’ve asked similar questions a couple times, if my memory serves me.

My take of selflessness does not take away our free will. It’s not a split between the subconscious and conscious mind where the battle takes place. I don’t believe I’m being controlled by my Id, and those mechanisms are being cleverly covered by my ego for one seamless experience.

To me, the self which we were discussing, and the lack thereof, is purely a construct of our conscious mind. That means that if you were to remove the self, “you” would still be conscious, “you” would still be in control. The concept of flow is somewhat similar. I have experienced selflessness in my life, and I don’t doubt many others have as well.

It is a direct experience of the world, without the mask of the ego. The best analogy I have is this: your mind is like the blue sky, and the self/ego are the clouds that block the sun. Even though you can’t see the sun, and the sky looks grey, the clouds don’t affect the blueness of the sky, nor the brightness of the sun. Those are constant (not really, but compared to the clouds; you get the point) and it doesn’t matter if there’s a hurricane or a snow storm (rage/hatred/jealousy), the reality is our “authentic selves” are clear and calm.

I cannot believe we are simple robots with a creepy program to make ourselves believe we make decisions that were made for us by our instincts/DNA/whatever. That doesn’t make any sense to me.

So, yes, I believe we are free-thinkers, some are just a little more clear than others.[/quote]

I like this train of thought. I think it is healthy to not identify your sense of self from your thoughts but to merely witness them. Can you tell I read Wayne Dyer books? I know I create my thoughts but many are conditioned and plenty are self defeating. Reminding myself that I am not my mind really can be a relief.

Severiano · March 22, 2014, 8:57am

On repentance. I think there is a certain advantage Christians have, well at least Catholics.

Catholics have confession, so they can repent… They can rid themselves of things they are guilty of if they are faithful. Like, if you didn’t apologize to someone before they died, etc… Things you cannot do because of worldly events can be solved if you are faithful via confession.

Where a lot of us will harbor and carry guilt about things. I know I do.

SexMachine · March 22, 2014, 9:58am

[quote]AceRock wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I’m in my 30’s and I’ve been a lifelong atheist.

I deserve no better but seek the chance to bring joy into others’ lives, bless the Lord and have a family.[/quote]

That is unfortunate, to put it mildly. I wish you a speedy and full recovery.

My question, then, is the quoted parts above. Are you trying to find faith, is that it? I’ve given it my best, several times, and come back to it every now and then, so that I understand. Just want to make sure I’m following you.[/quote]

Sorry for late replies - sabbath, pain etc

Faith is an irrevocable choice that I made and I don’t even think about it. Not much of an answer sorry.

SexMachine · March 22, 2014, 10:02am

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]AceRock wrote:
I enjoy the thread started by SexMachine. In it, it was suggested to start the opposite thread, a place where Christians/Jews(can I say that?)/Muslims/whatever(no offense) can openly question those like me that so frequently question their religion. So here it is, let’s do this.

I do not have faith. I do not believe in God, or a higher power, a creator. I have given it plenty of chances, and continue to do so. It feels like banging my head against a wall.

I have a belief system, that is constantly reaffirmed in my daily existence. It is malleable, constantly growing, and always striving for improvement. I am eclectic in this regard. I like to see the commonality among the major faiths, rather than the differences.

Do not kill, rape, hurt, steal, lie, and cheat. Treat others with kindness, respect, dignity, and compassion. These are the tenets by which I live my life. Sounds familiar?

I’m open for anything, historical, current, family, whatever floats your boat.[/quote]

I’m in my 30’s and I’ve been a lifelong atheist. Even one who thought I was a clever dick and the believers were braindead zombies. I have known a lot of religious people and they seem to have found religion as a way to cope with traumatic things and belong to a welcoming community.

Without trying to brag nothing gets me down. My mother died 14 months ago and although it was a very difficult time I pulled through on my own without support and improved my life. After about 12 months the grief subsided and by chance I decided to learn the history of the Israelites. I’d been studying Greek and Roman history for twenty years.

Soom after I had a nasty accident with multiple fractures. Right now I don’t know if I’ll be crippled for life but I don’t ask or expect to be healed as Mephibosheth was. That was for the sake of Saul anyhow. I don’t blame anyone else for my own mistakes and I try to curtail my excesses. I have done things in ignorance that would cause the Lord to turn his back on me. I deserve no better but seek the chance to bring joy into others’ lives, bless the Lord and have a family. Well that’s about it. Sorry for getting too personal there.[/quote]

Wow, sorry to hear about all this happening to you in such a short period of time. I hope that with some physical therapy and patience you’ll mend up just fine.
[/quote]

Just a scratch sloth; just a scratch. Thanks for your thoughts.

Old Japanese proverb: fall off a horse seven times, get back on eight .

SexMachine · March 22, 2014, 10:06am

[quote]AceRock wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I’m in my 30’s and I’ve been a lifelong atheist.

I deserve no better but seek the chance to bring joy into others’ lives, bless the Lord and have a family.[/quote]

That is unfortunate, to put it mildly. I wish you a speedy and full recovery.

My question, then, is the quoted parts above. Are you trying to find faith, is that it? I’ve given it my best, several times, and come back to it every now and then, so that I understand. Just want to make sure I’m following you.[/quote]

The fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom - Proverbs

SexMachine · March 22, 2014, 10:10am

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

That when my best friends mom died when she was 40 that it was because God needed an angel right then. That my grandparents are in the most perfect existence imaginable. That a woman raped and murdered and treated awfully in this life is now in eternal bliss.

Remember the book of Ecclesiastes. Everything is futile/meaningless…a chasing a after the wind. It doesn’t mean we lose faith because we can 't comprehend greater purpose .[/quote]

How am I supposed to convince myself to listen to that book over all the other religious texts out there? How do I know I have found the correct answer there and not in the words of someone else? [/quote]

The wisdom and truth that the others lack .

smh_23 · March 22, 2014, 12:17pm

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

…I would rather live a life without objective purpose than one whose purpose begins and ends with the pleasure of an omniscient suzerain.[/quote]

You certainly have that choice. [/quote]

Do you really think that I do?

[/quote]

To be perfectly honest, the answer can be yes and no.

The scripture is crystal clear that “whosoever comes to him will be saved.” Free will is part and parcel of Christianity. So the “answer” here is an unequivocal yes.

There is also a branch of Christianity, Calvinism, that teaches that God gathers whom He will to Him. The answer here is a murky, modified yes.

Then there is the doctrine of the unpardonable sin which pretty much consensually means that those who “blaspheme the Holy Spirit,” i.e., reject His work of drawing you to Him will at some undefined point will lose their opportunity to exercise their free will. The answer here is no, depending where on that undefined time line you happen to be.[/quote]

Ah, I think I wasn’t clear. I didn’t mean to imply that I don’t actually have free will if Christianity (setting Calvin and Jansen aside for the moment) is true.

What I meant was, I can choose to live my life as if its purpose is not to please God, but that won’t change the fact that that is indeed its purpose (if it is).

pat · March 22, 2014, 7:31pm

[quote]AceRock wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]MytchBucanan wrote:
Anytime I catch myself thinking life is meaningless, I find it is helpful to ask myself how would life/reality be different if it had meaning?[/quote]

This is the flip side of the “meaning of life” criticism of atheism.

Theists are happy to point out that atheism implies no objective morality or purpose.

But, if they are devout Christians–which, around here, they tend to be–what, in their view, is this meaning of life for which they are so grateful?

It is to please God. (To love him–because he wants you to. To do what he says–because he wants you to. In the end, it all reduces to pleasing God.) Some call it humility, others call it servility, slavery.

I’d love a universe with a generally disinterested God on whom morality can rely. Absent that, I would rather live a life without objective purpose than one whose purpose begins and ends with the pleasure of an omniscient suzerain.[/quote]

Well said, especially the suzerain part. Love that word, thanks for sharing it with me.

Agreed. I have a hard time believing anything so almighty is so desperate for attention. 238 did a good job comparing His love to that of a father, and although it doesn’t quite click with me, I can see that side of it a little better now.[/quote]

It’s a nuance that I reckon is pretty difficult to explain. I can see why it may appear that way to you guys. But it’s not like that to us at all. We do it gladly, not because we have to. Indeed we do not have to. There is no conclusion to do it because of fear, indoctrination, requirement, oppression, etc.
I think I can speak for many of us, that we do it gladly. We do it for love. We don’t feel obligated but we want to.
Is there something in it for us? Sure. I guess at some degree that matters, at another point it doesn’t. It is a reciprocal relationship.
In a tangible way, from my experience it is in fact better to give than receive. In whatever I have given, I have gotten back 100 times more. And further, I expect to.
But it’s not a relationship of overlord whose going to throw you out on your ass if you don’t do what he says. We don’t see God as a desperate for attention, he doesn’t need us, but we need Him. I see it as Him giving us the opportunity to know Him, if we want to. If we open our hearts, he will fill it.

Personally, for you Ace. I am not looking for any kind of argument or fight. I know you are suffering, for you have revealed that to us. I would want more than anything to help. I don’t mean in anything religious or some off hand attempt to convert you to anything. Just help. To let you know there are those of us who have suffered similar things. I know it’s just a forum, but if there’s anything I can do I would like to. I am sure I am not alone. Or if you would prefer I just shut up, I will do that as well. It’s your choice. I am just extending an olive branch. I don’t want you to suffer… If I have said to much, I am sorry. What you said got to me and I hate it for you.

pat · March 22, 2014, 7:38pm

[quote]Severiano wrote:
On repentance. I think there is a certain advantage Christians have, well at least Catholics.

Catholics have confession, so they can repent… They can rid themselves of things they are guilty of if they are faithful. Like, if you didn’t apologize to someone before they died, etc… Things you cannot do because of worldly events can be solved if you are faithful via confession.

Where a lot of us will harbor and carry guilt about things. I know I do. [/quote]

Yeah, I think what people don’t understand about repentance is the opportunity to look truth in the face and be completely honest about where one has fallen short.
The sacrament of Confession is one of the most freeing things I have ever experienced. To look at the truth of the matter, and face the fact ‘Yeah, I am a douche.’ It’s like dropping a 1000 lbs weight off your shoulders.
It’s difficult to face the truth, nobody wants to admit they are weak.

pat · March 22, 2014, 7:48pm

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

…I would rather live a life without objective purpose than one whose purpose begins and ends with the pleasure of an omniscient suzerain.[/quote]

You certainly have that choice. [/quote]

Do you really think that I do?

I mean, I can pretend that life is any way I’d like it to be. But if God exists in the way that you believe Him to, I really don’t have any choice whatsoever (in the end).

My point is simply that the meaninglessness of atheism is actually far, far more attractive to many people that is the purpose provided by “the big three.”[/quote]

Yes, you have that choice. You can seek what is attractive or seek the truth. It’s totally up to you. If feel that a dead honest seeking of truth leads you to atheism, there’s nothing anybody can say, you know the truth. I have know way of knowing where your search for truth will lead you.

I have another book recommendation if your interested still:

I don’t know if that’s what your looking for. It’s just something I remembered.

H_factor · March 22, 2014, 8:27pm

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

And if I was a believer I would be far more concerned with how all these people who believe in consequences ignore them than those who don’t believe in end game consequences. [/quote]

As a believer, I am more concerned with bettering myself than other people. I find it interesting you would say that. Do you think religious folk are really concerned about the bad behavior of others. We, as believers, technically have no right to pass judgements like that. Doesn’t mean people don’t do it, but they are not supposed to.[/quote]

Would you call your mis-characterizations of my positions in this thread a judgement on me? I think I would.

Either way it seems as if much of your question on this forum in terms of belief/non belief is squarely centered on those who do not believe in a higher power ignoring those that claim they do and the behaviors of them.

I think it’s quite the cop out to ask questions of non believers like “how do you behave when you have no incentive to do so” and never ask questions of the believers who so clearly run counter to much of the spirit of the Bible. I’ve seen a few do it. I’ve seen most directly ignore it.

No. Clearly I don’t think religious people are that concerned with the behavior of others at least not on this forum. Unless it seems those people are non-believers and then they seem to be very keen on our behavior.

H_factor · March 22, 2014, 8:29pm

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

That when my best friends mom died when she was 40 that it was because God needed an angel right then. That my grandparents are in the most perfect existence imaginable. That a woman raped and murdered and treated awfully in this life is now in eternal bliss.

Remember the book of Ecclesiastes. Everything is futile/meaningless…a chasing a after the wind. It doesn’t mean we lose faith because we can 't comprehend greater purpose .[/quote]

How am I supposed to convince myself to listen to that book over all the other religious texts out there? How do I know I have found the correct answer there and not in the words of someone else? [/quote]

The wisdom and truth that the others lack .
[/quote]

Thanks Yoda I’ll get right on that.

The ol not wise enough to be Christian line. That never gets old.

AceRock · March 23, 2014, 2:34am