[quote]pat wrote:
If life has no meaning, what’s the point of inventing meaning since inherently it has no meaning?
Isn’t it useless to fake it?[/quote]
Meaning is not invented, it is given. Therefore, it is not about inventing a meaning for life but giving a meaning to life. Is the idea of being kind to others invented or is it a behavior that already exists within humans? Is the idea that a parent will protect his or her child, with his or her life, invented or is it something that is in our DNA? Are those “meanings” fake?
I still think something like narrative bias could be in play here. We already know that accounts framed within a story become more plausible to humans. We are more likely to believe things that are framed as stories which undoubtedly the Bible is. You can read about narrative bias, but the left hemishpere of the brain and right hemisphere of the brain both work on these narratives.
The right hemisphere is the devil’s advocate and the left is the story teller. Essentially the right is the side saying “yeah right” when it hears something.
This is very strong in me. I don’t believe conspiracy theories. My initial thought to any information is “that’s bullshit.” Especially things that sound unlikely to be true or would need a lot of things to go right to happen. Essentially an Occam’s Razor type of guy.
Maybe believers are genetically hardwired to believe that narrative. Their left hemisphere tells the tale and the right doesn’t push back like mine does?
Obviously I’m just spitballing here, but I do think that non-believers brains may work in different manners than believers which is why nons have such a hard time making sense of the stories and believers accept it easily on “faith.”
Who knows.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
If our self is an illusion, and all our “choices” are pretty much made by subconscious processes–with a phony sense of conscious decision constructed after the fact to keep up the illusion–are there really any free-thinkers?[/quote]
No, there are not any freethinkers.
If physicalism is incompatible with free will–and there are good arguments for such–then I shouldn’t have been punished for smoking a cigarette at the age of twelve.
Then again, my parents had as little choice in punishing me as I did in lighting the smoke.
The real answer to your question is this: If the dark aspects of physicalism (and physicalism itself) are true–and they really might be–then I want to ignore them in my day to day life, because acknowledgement of them will harm my ability to to things that I want to do, and will make me unhappy.
Notice that I’m talking about want. I want to be happy. Want and happy are both real. Whether there is any objective value in happiness or the satisfaction of want is irrelevant. There is subjective value, and subjective value is both real and very, very powerful.
All that having been said, I don’t think physicalism is the truth, and, if it is, I think it’s incomplete and will somehow allow for free will.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Is it not what you have been doing? Criticizing the church for X, or not doing enough for something, or if God does exist why is he such a big meany? Are you not proposing that religious belief is antiquated, evil, hypocritical, silly, and stupid.
You haven’t accused religious people for not practicing what they preach? When you quote from scripture and then say ‘Why are you not doing this?’, you are presupposing to know what we actually believe and that we are all hypocrites by default because based on what you’ve seen, religious people do some evil shit.
You assume religious people teach and practice hatred of gays or whatever is the flavor of the day attack.
[/quote]
Serious question:
Instead of pretending to make arguments about what I’ve said why not actually talk about what I’ve said with specific examples? That way you aren’t just running around for the millionth time saying “aren’t you assuming X, X, X, X?”
You don’t READ closely to what people say (or at least what I say) and because you fail to do that you make a lot of strawmen about people. I have no idea if you are doing this out of laziness or because it will make your arguments better if you pretend to attack different positions.
I honestly have no idea why you do it so often, but I honestly tire of writing responses to you and then having to come back in and say…“yeah, I never said that at all.”
Here’s a short start for you: I haven’t been proposing that religious belief is stupid, I haven’t assumed I know what you believe by asking a question about your belief, and I haven’t assumed religious people teach and practice gay hatred simply because I’ve pointed out how many “believers” on here seem to ignore certain core Christian teachings.
If you would take time to actually read what I said instead of grow angered by me coming to a different conclusion on faith than you you wouldn’t have to spend so much time making falsehoods about what I think. And accusing me of judgments while you erroneously judge posts I make to fit criteria you want them to fit.
[/quote]
Well alrighty then, what is it you are trying to say?
[quote]pat wrote:
Well alrighty then, what is it you are trying to say?[/quote]
You’d know if you read closely to what people are saying instead of being in a rush to interject what you want other people to be saying so you can tear down those arguments.
I’ve done a lot of posting lately on the subject. You’re free to read through if you’d like. I’m not going to spell out everything for you yet again.
I just ask that you refrain from clearly ignoring what I’m saying to place words in my mouth. You’ve already admitted to not reading what I’ve posted carefully once and continuing to do it is simply an exercise in frustration.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Honest question, what does it matter if you do or do not make the most of it?[/quote]
This is like the flavor of the week (to steal your line) I don’t get it from believers argument.
I don’t think I have a second chance. I don’t have a heaven to go to. Nothing exists for me past this existence. So why not make the most of it? It’s freeing in a certain sense. I don’t need heaven to motivate me to do things I view as good (spare me the millionth how do you know they are good argument). If someone does that’s great. The world has enough liars, cheaters, rapists, murderers. I don’t care what keeps people from doing that. Clearly some people who don’t believe in a higher power are shitheads. Clearly some people who do believe in a higher power are shitheads.
Unless you do something amazing enough or horrific enough to change peoples lives for forever it probably doesn’t matter. Either way it is pointless to me. If you proved to me it does matter I would act the same as I am right now. If you proved to me it doesn’t matter I wouldn’t change a thing. In fact (and I think this is what surprises believers about us) I don’t spend much time thinking about it period. I make the people I work with happy because I enjoy my job. I make my family happy because I enjoy their company. Words in a really old book have no effect on that for me. I never wonder what Jesus would do in a certain situation. I don’t think about Jesus. I have no idea if Jesus would have gone to a house and helped paint for an elderly couple this past weekend. That’s what I did. I have no time to think nor care what he might have done in a similar situation to me.
Is it really that crazy for believers to realize why some people who don’t believe may want to do good things in the world as they see good? Why? Why do we continuously get stuck on this “how come you don’t just be a dickhead if it doesn’t matter?” My response is why do so many who think it does matter do what they do?! [/quote]
But it’s subjective isn’t it? If you didn’t happen to care about the things you care about, didn’t care if you made anyone happy, didn’t care about being nice, etc. that would be just as well correct?
You do it because you want to do it, but if you didn’t that would be just fine as well, correct?
The ‘why not be a dickhead?’ question I think is a fair one. If you want to, why not?
As far as why so many people think it matters what they do, I think too few think it.
[quote]pat wrote:
But it’s subjective isn’t it? If you didn’t happen to care about the things you care about, didn’t care if you made anyone happy, didn’t care about being nice, etc. that would be just as well correct?
You do it because you want to do it, but if you didn’t that would be just fine as well, correct?
The ‘why not be a dickhead?’ question I think is a fair one. If you want to, why not?
As far as why so many people think it matters what they do, I think too few think it.[/quote]
What’s stopping you from being a dickhead? Nothing at all. You would hardly be the first believer to be a rapist, a cheat, a liar, a murderer. How many “religious men” have been horrific men? Clearly heaven and the Bible weren’t stopping them. In fact a lot of them pointed at those as JUSTIFICATION for being a dickhead.
You’re not stopped anymore than I am. So why does it matter? It would be just as fine to you to not be a good person. Why wouldn’t it be? Priests touch little boys, preachers build massive bank accounts and cheat on their spouses, people kill in the name of God.
Belief in God isn’t making you a good person anymore than not believing in God is making me one.
It’s all choices. You’re just searching for stuff that isn’t there. Nothing in the Bible is stopping you from being a dickhead. You wouldn’t be the first nor the last to say you believed and didn’t walk the walk.
If you need the WWJD bracelet and scripture to do good things then rock on. I don’t need that and I view it as largely a waste of time to think about “how can an atheist be a good guy?” Shit, how can so many religious people who think it matters be fucksticks?
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Well alrighty then, what is it you are trying to say?[/quote]
You’d know if you read closely to what people are saying instead of being in a rush to interject what you want other people to be saying so you can tear down those arguments.
I’ve done a lot of posting lately on the subject. You’re free to read through if you’d like. I’m not going to spell out everything for you yet again.
I just ask that you refrain from clearly ignoring what I’m saying to place words in my mouth. You’ve already admitted to not reading what I’ve posted carefully once and continuing to do it is simply an exercise in frustration.
[/quote]
And you haven’t done that? You completely misread some of my posts too. It happens. So if I misread them I apologize. You’re clearly intending an emphasis be placed your ‘exceptions to the rule’ as well.
To me it doesn’t much matter if you compliment Sloth or whomever as an exception. I see you having a predominant anti-Christian bias despite that.
I am curious, where does it come from?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Well alrighty then, what is it you are trying to say?[/quote]
You’d know if you read closely to what people are saying instead of being in a rush to interject what you want other people to be saying so you can tear down those arguments.
I’ve done a lot of posting lately on the subject. You’re free to read through if you’d like. I’m not going to spell out everything for you yet again.
I just ask that you refrain from clearly ignoring what I’m saying to place words in my mouth. You’ve already admitted to not reading what I’ve posted carefully once and continuing to do it is simply an exercise in frustration.
[/quote]
And you haven’t done that? You completely misread some of my posts too. It happens. So if I misread them I apologize. You’re clearly intending an emphasis be placed your ‘exceptions to the rule’ as well.
To me it doesn’t much matter if you compliment Sloth or whomever as an exception. I see you having a predominant anti-Christian bias despite that.
I am curious, where does it come from?[/quote]
No actually I didn’t. You demonstrably placed words in my mouth more than once.
Here’s a recent post of mine:
[quote]While I personally believe religion has caused a whole shit pot full of bad things throughout time, we don’t need to actively fight against people’s beliefs. It was wrong for religions to kill each other over and over in the name of faith and it is wrong to try and stop people from believing. I haven’t read the document nor do I care to do so.
What we need is more rational believers and non-believers instead of insane zealots who attempt to push their views via hatred and violence. The problem is people, not religion. And this is coming from a non religious man.[/quote]
The more you invent what you think my views are by failing to read words carefully the more foolish you look. Let’s just agree to stop this part of the conversation and try to do a better job of getting right what I believe before you attack it.
I compliment Sloth and Trib because to me they “walk the walk.” I may vehemently disagree with their points of view, but you can tell they are trying to follow the Bible in their posts. How am I supposed to view people who get on me for not being a Christian and yet post hate filled profanity rants about gay people that according to their views God created.
I view them as absolute hypocrites. And honestly most of the believers on here don’t EVER mention them. They never call them out. They are quick to make threads jumping on non believers such as myself. Call out other believers behavior on here? Nah, not something they need to do. It’s much better to ask for the 500th time if atheism is a religion.
I have an anti-hypocrite bias.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
But it’s subjective isn’t it? If you didn’t happen to care about the things you care about, didn’t care if you made anyone happy, didn’t care about being nice, etc. that would be just as well correct?
You do it because you want to do it, but if you didn’t that would be just fine as well, correct?
The ‘why not be a dickhead?’ question I think is a fair one. If you want to, why not?
As far as why so many people think it matters what they do, I think too few think it.[/quote]
What’s stopping you from being a dickhead? Nothing at all. You would hardly be the first believer to be a rapist, a cheat, a liar, a murderer. How many “religious men” have been horrific men? Clearly heaven and the Bible weren’t stopping them. In fact a lot of them pointed at those as JUSTIFICATION for being a dickhead.
[/quote]
You are correct there. There is nothing stopping me and I ain’t the first to admit I have been a dickhead, faith and all.
The separation, I believe isn’t in dickheadedness, but repentance. If you have nothing to answer to, repentance is unnecessary.
Hear I disagree. I humbly coast on the grace of God alone. I am a horribly weak person. I am not where I am at by my own merits. You can believe that or not. I cannot prove my subjective experience. And no I am not selling myself short.
Where you see natural order, I see miracles.
[quote]
It’s all choices. You’re just searching for stuff that isn’t there. Nothing in the Bible is stopping you from being a dickhead. You wouldn’t be the first nor the last to say you believed and didn’t walk the walk.
If you need the WWJD bracelet and scripture to do good things then rock on. I don’t need that and I view it as largely a waste of time to think about “how can an atheist be a good guy?” Shit, how can so many religious people who think it matters be fucksticks? [/quote]
I don’t believe in the WWJD bullshit. Mainly because I am not Jesus and I have no way of knowing what he would do.
I love being a believer. I love reading the scriptures and learning theology. I do it out of love, not fear.
How can I love something I cannot see? I couldn’t explain it if I wanted to. I sense it though, I sense it strongly.
I don’t spend as much time worrying about ‘how an atheist be a good guy?’. I already know you have a sense of morality that is not subjective. I am not talking about whether it’s ok to go to a titty-bar, or get drunk or something like that. I am talking about the real stuff. You know it’s wrong to lie, cheat, steal and murder. Where you think it subjective, I see it fixed and objective. You cannot make it right in any possible world.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Well alrighty then, what is it you are trying to say?[/quote]
You’d know if you read closely to what people are saying instead of being in a rush to interject what you want other people to be saying so you can tear down those arguments.
I’ve done a lot of posting lately on the subject. You’re free to read through if you’d like. I’m not going to spell out everything for you yet again.
I just ask that you refrain from clearly ignoring what I’m saying to place words in my mouth. You’ve already admitted to not reading what I’ve posted carefully once and continuing to do it is simply an exercise in frustration.
[/quote]
And you haven’t done that? You completely misread some of my posts too. It happens. So if I misread them I apologize. You’re clearly intending an emphasis be placed your ‘exceptions to the rule’ as well.
To me it doesn’t much matter if you compliment Sloth or whomever as an exception. I see you having a predominant anti-Christian bias despite that.
I am curious, where does it come from?[/quote]
No actually I didn’t. You demonstrably placed words in my mouth more than once.
Here’s a recent post of mine:
[quote]While I personally believe religion has caused a whole shit pot full of bad things throughout time, we don’t need to actively fight against people’s beliefs. It was wrong for religions to kill each other over and over in the name of faith and it is wrong to try and stop people from believing. I haven’t read the document nor do I care to do so.
What we need is more rational believers and non-believers instead of insane zealots who attempt to push their views via hatred and violence. The problem is people, not religion. And this is coming from a non religious man.[/quote]
The more you invent what you think my views are by failing to read words carefully the more foolish you look. Let’s just agree to stop this part of the conversation and try to do a better job of getting right what I believe before you attack it. [/quote]
Rather than retort in anyway, I will agree rather to forget it and move on.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
If life has no meaning, what’s the point of inventing meaning since inherently it has no meaning?
Isn’t it useless to fake it?[/quote]
Meaning is not invented, it is given. Therefore, it is not about inventing a meaning for life but giving a meaning to life. Is the idea of being kind to others invented or is it a behavior that already exists within humans? Is the idea that a parent will protect his or her child, with his or her life, invented or is it something that is in our DNA? Are those “meanings” fake? [/quote]
DNA gives us structure, it doesn’t give us meaning. Where does the meaning come from? Genetically programmed meaning isn’t really meaning, at best it would be an illusion of meaning, which is not really meaning at all.
What gives meaning? Actual, true meaning?
Does our flesh and bones actually have anymore meaning than a rock? After we all when we decompose we’re just dirt. How can dirt have meaning if it only spends part of it existence living and most of it’s existence not living, just cycling through the laws of thermodynamics until the universe dies.
Anytime I catch myself thinking life is meaningless, I find it is helpful to ask myself how would life/reality be different if it had meaning? I can never think of an answer and that seems to put things into perspective for me.
Great discussion fellas…
[quote]pat wrote:
The ‘why not be a dickhead?’ question I think is a fair one. If you want to, why not?
As far as why so many people think it matters what they do, I think too few think it.[/quote]
I’ve already answered this. Nothing magical about belief or not belief makes one make good decisions. The semantics type “how do you know what’s right then” arguments put me to sleep. It’s a waste of time for me. I don’t spend time thinking about it or arguing about it because it is a pointless exercise. It seems to be something believers are obsessed with asking non believers about. I could care less. You’ve admitted to this in the below. It is therefore a pointless exercise.
[quote]pat wrote:
You are correct there. There is nothing stopping me and I ain’t the first to admit I have been a dickhead, faith and all.
The separation, I believe isn’t in dickheadedness, but repentance. If you have nothing to answer to, repentance is unnecessary.
[/quote]
This is also pointless (to me). What would you rather have? A person who doesn’t do bad things and doesn’t repent or someone who does do bad things that does repent? Have I done stuff I wish I hadn’t? Of course. I’ve lied about stuff. I’ve taken things that weren’t mine when I was younger. I’ve hurt people. I feel bad about those things. I don’t need to ask God for forgiveness to move on. I’ve learned from mistakes.
I haven’t raped anyone. I haven’t killed anyone. I haven’t stolen large sums from people. I haven’t cheated on my soon to be wife. I haven’t cheated when I was taking college classes.
I do have someone to answer to. I answer to myself. If I do something that harms someone else I feel bad about it. If you would stop and pray to an unseen being for forgiveness then that is great. I don’t think me not doing that or you doing that makes anyone of us better than the other.
[quote]MytchBucanan wrote:
Anytime I catch myself thinking life is meaningless, I find it is helpful to ask myself how would life/reality be different if it had meaning? I can never think of an answer and that seems to put things into perspective for me.
Great discussion fellas…[/quote]
This is why I said meaning or not meaning I wouldn’t do anything differently. I don’t believe in the light at the end of the tunnel nor do I need that light.
I try to be good to people I meet because I want to. Not because I need to. Not out of fear.
We have enough free loaders, assholes, rapists, cheaters, liars, thieves, murderers already. If belief in God keeps people from doing that then I’m on board. Let’s just not pretend that ONLY belief in God keeps people from doing that. Case in point most atheists I have met in my life.
And if I was a believer I would be far more concerned with how all these people who believe in consequences ignore them than those who don’t believe in end game consequences.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
The ‘why not be a dickhead?’ question I think is a fair one. If you want to, why not?
As far as why so many people think it matters what they do, I think too few think it.[/quote]
I’ve already answered this. Nothing magical about belief or not belief makes one make good decisions. The semantics type “how do you know what’s right then” arguments put me to sleep. It’s a waste of time for me. I don’t spend time thinking about it or arguing about it because it is a pointless exercise. It seems to be something believers are obsessed with asking non believers about. I could care less. You’ve admitted to this in the below. It is therefore a pointless exercise.
[/quote]
Whether or not you find them boring does not put away the dilemma. If we seem ‘obsessed’ it’s because we’ve never gotten a straight answer. Except Kamui, who is the exception to the rule.
This is also pointless (to me). What would you rather have? A person who doesn’t do bad things and doesn’t repent or someone who does do bad things that does repent? Have I done stuff I wish I hadn’t? Of course. I’ve lied about stuff. I’ve taken things that weren’t mine when I was younger. I’ve hurt people. I feel bad about those things. I don’t need to ask God for forgiveness to move on. I’ve learned from mistakes.
[/quote]
Since no one is immune to doing bad shit, I pick the penitent. Clearly, since you do not believe God exists there is no one to ask forgiveness from. So the concept wouldn’t make any sense to you.
I never claimed anybody’s value is better or worse for believing or not. I’d make a terrible little god, so I don’t need to answer to myself, I always have great excuses.
[quote]H factor wrote:
And if I was a believer I would be far more concerned with how all these people who believe in consequences ignore them than those who don’t believe in end game consequences. [/quote]
As a believer, I am more concerned with bettering myself than other people. I find it interesting you would say that. Do you think religious folk are really concerned about the bad behavior of others. We, as believers, technically have no right to pass judgements like that. Doesn’t mean people don’t do it, but they are not supposed to.
[quote]MytchBucanan wrote:
Anytime I catch myself thinking life is meaningless, I find it is helpful to ask myself how would life/reality be different if it had meaning?[/quote]
This is the flip side of the “meaning of life” criticism of atheism.
Theists are happy to point out that atheism implies no objective morality or purpose.
But, if they are devout Christians–which, around here, they tend to be–what, in their view, is this meaning of life for which they are so grateful?
It is to please God. (To love him–because he wants you to. To do what he says–because he wants you to. In the end, it all reduces to pleasing God.) Some call it humility, others call it servility, slavery.
I’d love a universe with a generally disinterested God on whom morality can rely. Absent that, I would rather live a life without objective purpose than one whose purpose begins and ends with the pleasure of an omniscient suzerain.
Religion increases inclusive fitness
Perhaps religion was created to increase genetic success?