Religious Questions from the Faithful and the Believers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Smh, if your question is what I think it is the answer, or the way you can be “bested,” is to do your own reading in Christian apologetics.

Some James Kennedy. Some C.S. Lewis. Some Paul Little.

You’re asking way too much of even a prolific T-N poster like me to provide overwhelmingly convincing arguments in a forum like this one.


Indeed your question is a valid one and deserves answers but those answers, both individually and comprehensively, can’t be expected to pop up here on your Testosterone Nation screen penned by guys who lift weights and have families and regular jobs.

If your question is sincerely asked you, yes you, need to do your due diligence and explore the literal millions of pages written over the centuries on this topic.

Anyway, this is a hijack on my part and does not follow the theme of this particular thread. Oh well.[/quote]

Points taken, particularly the emboldened portion.

I will note, however, that I’ve read much of what you’re describing. I have never read Little–and will look into him–but I have read Kennedy and either everything or very close to everything Lewis ever wrote on apologetics. More recently, Craig and Plantinga, the latter of whom I’ve been reading for a few hours every night since last month. It is good stuff–some of it is great–but, and I know I run the risk of seeming arrogant here*, I still believe that my criticisms win out.

*Really, though, this is no different from how we all come to believe and know: We think, we weigh, and then we choose and adopt a winner. If I didn’t think myself correct, and argued anyway, I’d be not only a fool but also a fatuous asshole.

122

Relatedly, I am looking for the best available criticisms of physicalism. Books–both fiction and non-fiction–and essays. Of particular and somewhat urgent interest to me is anything that criticizes physicalism though the lens of free will/determinism. Obviously this would go beyond Laplace’s demon in light of the ambiguities offered by quantum mechanics. If anybody has any suggestions, I would be grateful to be made privy to them.

123

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I think that is kinda the point.

Without which to measure something, you can’t measure it.

[/quote]

If he’s asking how to measure, I’m responding with why do you need to measure?

125

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

In light of your above answer please tell me what your purpose in life is and why it’s a valid one.

[/quote]

I give purpose to my life through the friendships I cultivate, intimate relationships I enjoy, children (I will probably eventually I assume) sire and endeavours I undertake. I understand that my time alive is very finite and I must make the most of it now.
[/quote]
Honest question, what does it matter if you do or do not make the most of it?

[quote]
How an atheist defines his purpose in life is highly individual but generally speaking what I wrote above is the broad strokes for most IMO.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
and why it’s a valid one.[/quote]

Valid based on what?[/quote]

If life has no meaning, what’s the point of inventing meaning since inherently it has no meaning?
Isn’t it useless to fake it?

126

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Relatedly, I am looking for the best available criticisms of physicalism. Books–both fiction and non-fiction–and essays. Of particular and somewhat urgent interest to me is anything that criticizes physicalism though the lens of free will/determinism. Obviously this would go beyond Laplace’s demon in light of the ambiguities offered by quantum mechanics. If anybody has any suggestions, I would be grateful to be made privy to them.[/quote]

This is the one I would recommend, particularly since he was a renowned atheist for most of his life. He knows both sides of the varying arguments. He writes very well and I don’t think you would have a problem with the technical language. Plus he somebody I am sure you have heard of…

129

[quote]pushharder wrote:

OK, why you believe it’s a valid one and since it’s limited to, presumably, the “little things” you can do on this earth for others, why is that all you need? [/quote]

I don’t know, likely related to a human’s brain chemistry? Probably best to ask a neurosurgeon well versed on the subject.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Because let’s face it, like in the Blue Dot thread, I’m in a kind of awe that one who believes he is nothing more than something descended from a lightning zapped amino acid in a primordial swamp and who completely disappears (no soul or spirit) when he takes his last breath can possibly have what he thinks is a “valid” purpose in life just because he does “good” (he thinks) to his neighbor for a few years on this terrestrial orb.[/quote]

Well that’s partially why you’re not an atheist.

130

[quote]pat wrote:

Honest question, what does it matter if you do or do not make the most of it?[/quote]

For me personally? I will not be happy. I need continuous goals to work towards to be fulfilled.

[quote]pat wrote:
If life has no meaning, what’s the point of inventing meaning since inherently it has no meaning?
Isn’t it useless to fake it?[/quote]

Not sure it’s ‘invented’ in the way you’re using it, rather it comes about throughout the course of living your life.

I didn’t sit down and say “I’m going to define my life as x.” My purpose to life came about organically through living.

131

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Relatedly, I am looking for the best available criticisms of physicalism. Books–both fiction and non-fiction–and essays. Of particular and somewhat urgent interest to me is anything that criticizes physicalism though the lens of free will/determinism. Obviously this would go beyond Laplace’s demon in light of the ambiguities offered by quantum mechanics. If anybody has any suggestions, I would be grateful to be made privy to them.[/quote]

This is the one I would recommend, particularly since he was a renowned atheist for most of his life. He knows both sides of the varying arguments. He writes very well and I don’t think you would have a problem with the technical language. Plus he somebody I am sure you have heard of…

[/quote]

Great suggestion, Pat. I read it a few years ago though. I liked Flew, both as an atheist and as a deist.

132

[quote]pat wrote:

Is it not what you have been doing? Criticizing the church for X, or not doing enough for something, or if God does exist why is he such a big meany? Are you not proposing that religious belief is antiquated, evil, hypocritical, silly, and stupid.
You haven’t accused religious people for not practicing what they preach? When you quote from scripture and then say ‘Why are you not doing this?’, you are presupposing to know what we actually believe and that we are all hypocrites by default because based on what you’ve seen, religious people do some evil shit.
You assume religious people teach and practice hatred of gays or whatever is the flavor of the day attack.
[/quote]

Serious question:

Instead of pretending to make arguments about what I’ve said why not actually talk about what I’ve said with specific examples? That way you aren’t just running around for the millionth time saying “aren’t you assuming X, X, X, X?”

You don’t READ closely to what people say (or at least what I say) and because you fail to do that you make a lot of strawmen about people. I have no idea if you are doing this out of laziness or because it will make your arguments better if you pretend to attack different positions.

I honestly have no idea why you do it so often, but I honestly tire of writing responses to you and then having to come back in and say…“yeah, I never said that at all.”

Here’s a short start for you: I haven’t been proposing that religious belief is stupid, I haven’t assumed I know what you believe by asking a question about your belief, and I haven’t assumed religious people teach and practice gay hatred simply because I’ve pointed out how many “believers” on here seem to ignore certain core Christian teachings.

If you would take time to actually read what I said instead of grow angered by me coming to a different conclusion on faith than you you wouldn’t have to spend so much time making falsehoods about what I think. And accusing me of judgments while you erroneously judge posts I make to fit criteria you want them to fit.

133

[quote]pat wrote:
Honest question, what does it matter if you do or do not make the most of it?[/quote]

This is like the flavor of the week (to steal your line) I don’t get it from believers argument.

I don’t think I have a second chance. I don’t have a heaven to go to. Nothing exists for me past this existence. So why not make the most of it? It’s freeing in a certain sense. I don’t need heaven to motivate me to do things I view as good (spare me the millionth how do you know they are good argument). If someone does that’s great. The world has enough liars, cheaters, rapists, murderers. I don’t care what keeps people from doing that. Clearly some people who don’t believe in a higher power are shitheads. Clearly some people who do believe in a higher power are shitheads.

Unless you do something amazing enough or horrific enough to change peoples lives for forever it probably doesn’t matter. Either way it is pointless to me. If you proved to me it does matter I would act the same as I am right now. If you proved to me it doesn’t matter I wouldn’t change a thing. In fact (and I think this is what surprises believers about us) I don’t spend much time thinking about it period. I make the people I work with happy because I enjoy my job. I make my family happy because I enjoy their company. Words in a really old book have no effect on that for me. I never wonder what Jesus would do in a certain situation. I don’t think about Jesus. I have no idea if Jesus would have gone to a house and helped paint for an elderly couple this past weekend. That’s what I did. I have no time to think nor care what he might have done in a similar situation to me.

Is it really that crazy for believers to realize why some people who don’t believe may want to do good things in the world as they see good? Why? Why do we continuously get stuck on this “how come you don’t just be a dickhead if it doesn’t matter?” My response is why do so many who think it does matter do what they do?!

135

If our self is an illusion, and all our “choices” are pretty much made by subconscious processes–with a phony sense of conscious decision constructed after the fact to keep up the illusion–are there really any free-thinkers?

136

[quote]pat wrote:
I don’t want to get into that either. Especially in light of the things you said. I know what you are going through. I would be happy to discuss it with you offline somehow. I commend you on your drop-dead honesty and vulnerability. I wasn’t really expecting that. If you want to talk off line, I am more than willing. I am not willing to discuss these deeply personal issues in view for all to see. This is where I wish like hell PM’s still worked so I could pass along my email information to you.
If you would like to correspond privately, we can work something out. There I will be more candid. Damn man, I am truly, truly sorry.
[/quote]

If you knew me better, this would make more sense. I live by a strict, personal code. At the top of my list is brutal honesty. I have nothing to hide. Lying serves no purpose. You struck several chords with me, and my recent experiences are right up those alleys. I wasn’t begging for help, I have plenty. I’m so much happier now than I have been in years. Love is a wild ride, but as one of my favorite authors says, “Buy the ticket, take the ride.”

Don’t worry too much about me. I’m in the process of rediscovering myself, again. It happens cyclically, and it’s about time for a change. Good times.

Either way, you don’t seem to want to discuss my answers much. You asked, I tried. On to the next one. Thanks for the concern, though, don’t think it doesn’t matter.

137

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]AceRock wrote:

[quote]stefan128 wrote:
For the nonbeliever: What do you think happens when you die? Since you do not believe in heaven, where do you go once you die? Everything goes black and that’s it…[/quote]

Yes, exactly…

[/quote]

Now I’ll once again ask the question I posed in a previous thread:

In light of your above answer please tell me what your purpose in life is and why it’s a valid one.

*DON’T turn it into:

“So why should creationism be considered valid, Push?”

“You need to defend your faith, Push!”

“To leave the world a better place than when I found it” unless you’re going to tell us precisely why that is a purpose.

Or other non-sequiturs.

*I’m not saying you did these things in the other thread.
[/quote]

Welcome to the party, Push!

Purpose has several meanings, the first usually being the reason something was done/created. Another is intention or direction.

With the first definition, we’re immediately at the “Why are we here?” crossroads. Since you want precision, I cannot answer that succinctly enough for your tastes.

If you allow me the second definition, I will give it an honest effort.

My intent is to be happy. My means of doing is to make others happy. My happiness depends on others, in a direct way. I love the gym, but I couldn’t build one myself; I’m not a welder, machinist, etc. I love my son, but I couldn’t fix his broken arm; I’m not a doctor. I love my wife, but I couldn’t create her; I’m not that much of a redneck (incest humor, ha). Therefore, all the things I love have been given to me by others. Thus, all my happiness has been imparted by those people. The food I eat, the water I drink, the clothes I wear, everything.

My purpose is to give that happiness back. To strive to make the world as happy as it has made me, and let go of the pain. It’s that simple for me. I’m sorry if that isn’t precise enough for you, but that’s all I have in this world.

138

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I think that is kinda the point.

Without which to measure something, you can’t measure it.

[/quote]

If he’s asking how to measure, I’m responding with why do you need to measure?[/quote]

Why would you not need to measure?

I think I know. You don’t need to measure because life is essentially meaningless if you’re just another animal, just a more highly evolved one. Right? Wrong?[/quote]

Give it a shot, if you have the time. Blows my mind every time. Incredibly relevant.

139

I stepped away from religion when I realized the way I was being religious was based on being afraid. I sort of recognized that for some people, the faith they had was bound to fear of hell. I went to Catholic Schools and was pretty sexually aware that a good portion of the priests and other church workers were gay, I’d often wonder if they pledged their lives to God because they were gay.

I got comfortable being afraid and realized that I didn’t need fear to do the right thing, but it took me doing some pretty mean things to people and animals for me to realized I feel badly regardless of whether I’m going to heaven or hell when I did cruel things, this was back when I was a minor, around 15 and I was resigned to the fact that I was going to hell. I still felt badly, why?

The only thing that meant sense to me was to get rid of the fear and to embrace the things that made me feel good, which have always been doing good things for others, having duty, having integrity.

I’m not saying everyone who is religious is run on fear, but I think a lot of people are compelled to act a certain way out of fear of going to hell. I often point out the difference between doing good for the sake of good, and doing good for the sake of going to heaven, or doing good out of fear. To me there is a clear difference, and for me doing good for it’s own sake is what makes life worthwhile.

I’m pretty much dead on with H factors first post except I was raised Catholic, and I actually had faith for a while. My nature is to challenge things that scare me, and religion was the scariest thing I’ve ever faced.

140

I wonder if this all boils down to some EvoPysch socio-sexual explanation.

We work towards our goals because it’s hardwired into us to jockey for position among competing males for access to females. Isn’t society essentially one big attempt to impress women after all?