Religious Questions from the Faithful and the Believers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
“God” didn’t do shit about the rights of black men. God didn’t do shit about the rights of Japanese being bombed off the face of the planet by two atom bombs. Might has ALWAYS been right and always will. [/quote]

Then why are you upset? No rights were infringed upon.
[/quote]

Lol. You ignored that entire post to come up with that. [/quote]

Nope. I read a post that doesn’t seem to jive with the passion of the poster.
[/quote]

That’s fine. Most of my points are not surprisingly being skimmed across and ignored by believers who don’t want to address them. I even put a post about people not calling out other people and listed examples and it…was ignored.

You picked out one part of a post and ignored the content of the rest. I’m not going to type out lengthy responses to people that are just flat ignoring so much of what I type anyways.

62

Nothing wrong was done to black men. They didn’t even have a right to life, much less a right to freedom. So how were they wronged?

63

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

It was a poor analogy imo.

[/quote]

I obviously disagree, but either way, nothing you said after this address this or the analogy.

I’m assuming it wasn’t your intent to address it?[/quote]

Actually I did address it you just didn’t accept my answer.

[/quote]

No, you went on for three paragraphs about hypocrisy and your judgments of people who post on the board.

Of course I don’t accept that as an answer. It isn’t relevant to the analogy or your original question.

64

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

It was a poor analogy imo.

[/quote]

I obviously disagree, but either way, nothing you said after this address this or the analogy.

I’m assuming it wasn’t your intent to address it?[/quote]

Actually I did address it you just didn’t accept my answer.

[/quote]

No, you went on for three paragraphs about hypocrisy and your judgments of people who post on the board.

Of course I don’t accept that as an answer. It isn’t relevant to the analogy or your original question. [/quote]

Smh said this and I completely agree:

Also I talked about it, then talked about it with Sloth. It’s a poor analogy and I don’t feel like continuing to talk about it when I already have. Rephrase it if you would like, but I don’t think marrying my fiance and believing in God have anything to do with one another and I can’t really believe they do simply because you do my friend.

65

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Nothing wrong was done to black men. They didn’t even have a right to life, much less a right to freedom. So how were they wronged?[/quote]

Strawman, and deliberate reading comprehension fail.

Also a deflection from many of the points in my post that you are ignoring based on “passion.” Most directly your questioning of where my morals come from in regards to the morals derived from years of history of the Catholic Church.

66

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Nothing wrong was done to black men. They didn’t even have a right to life, much less a right to freedom. So how were they wronged?[/quote]

Strawman, and deliberate reading comprehension fail.

Also a deflection from many of the points in my post that you are ignoring based on “passion.” Most directly your questioning of where my morals come from in regards to the morals derived from years of history of the Catholic Church. [/quote]

Read the title of the thread.

So, if might makes rights how were those men wronged?

67

Its our turn to ask the questions!

68

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Nothing wrong was done to black men. They didn’t even have a right to life, much less a right to freedom. So how were they wronged?[/quote]

Strawman, and deliberate reading comprehension fail.

Also a deflection from many of the points in my post that you are ignoring based on “passion.” Most directly your questioning of where my morals come from in regards to the morals derived from years of history of the Catholic Church. [/quote]

Read the title of the thread.

So, if might makes rights how were those men wronged?
[/quote]

Honestly I’ve done this numerous times and lack the energy to go down this road yet again.

Rights, laws are only and have always been only as good as the people who think they matter at a given time.

Are you trying to tell me that post 9/11 our view of rights hasn’t drastically changed in this country? Or that during World War II our view of due process wasn’t changed? How about Guantanamo Bay?

Powerful people have always been able to say fuck your rights. And if those rights were God given then why didn’t God intervene for slaves?

69

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Its our turn to ask the questions![/quote]

Will you address the whole of my post if it is in the other thread? Serious question btw?

As for the rights thing, we’ve done that over and over again (or I have). Maybe my view on it is a weird one and I don’t know/don’t care. It doesn’t have much to do with my atheism though and more with my politics.

Basically I believe we have certain rights, but am not stupid enough to think that those rights actually matter to people who don’t want them to matter.

Me wanting our rights to mean something is different from what some people think. And the biggest strongest wealthiest motherfuckers will always dictate whether they matter or not.

Ironically your branch of religion has been one of the biggest fuck your rights institutions in history.

Doesn’t mean I think you’re a bad guy or Catholics are either…it’s just kind of interesting that my view of rights is being deeply questioned when I haven’t taken anyone away…yet the institution you belong to has throughout time.

Which isn’t your fault of course, it’s just the absolute truth and we both know it.

70

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

It was a poor analogy imo.

[/quote]

I obviously disagree, but either way, nothing you said after this address this or the analogy.

I’m assuming it wasn’t your intent to address it?[/quote]

Actually I did address it you just didn’t accept my answer.

[/quote]

No, you went on for three paragraphs about hypocrisy and your judgments of people who post on the board.

Of course I don’t accept that as an answer. It isn’t relevant to the analogy or your original question. [/quote]

Smh said this and I completely agree:

Also I talked about it, then talked about it with Sloth. It’s a poor analogy and I don’t feel like continuing to talk about it when I already have. Rephrase it if you would like, but I don’t think marrying my fiance and believing in God have anything to do with one another and I can’t really believe they do simply because you do my friend.

[/quote]

You apparently didn’t continue to follow our conversation then.

YOU still haven’t addressed why you feel this way, other than the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying nananananan.

It’s alright though.

I really don’t care.

71

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

It was a poor analogy imo.

[/quote]

I obviously disagree, but either way, nothing you said after this address this or the analogy.

I’m assuming it wasn’t your intent to address it?[/quote]

Actually I did address it you just didn’t accept my answer.

[/quote]

No, you went on for three paragraphs about hypocrisy and your judgments of people who post on the board.

Of course I don’t accept that as an answer. It isn’t relevant to the analogy or your original question. [/quote]

Smh said this and I completely agree:

Also I talked about it, then talked about it with Sloth. It’s a poor analogy and I don’t feel like continuing to talk about it when I already have. Rephrase it if you would like, but I don’t think marrying my fiance and believing in God have anything to do with one another and I can’t really believe they do simply because you do my friend.

[/quote]

You apparently didn’t continue to follow our conversation then.

YOU still haven’t addressed why you feel this way, other than the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying nananananan.

It’s alright though.

I really don’t care. [/quote]

I have attempted to and again you have ignored those attempts. I am agnostic leaning towards atheist. I am marrying Liz because she has the qualities I want in a wife. All married people are taking a leap of faith yes. You don’t know if your wife and you will be together for forever either. It’s a risk we all take. People change, divorce happens.

I am not religious because rationally my brain can’t accept it as the undeniable truth conclusion due to a lack of evidence. The evidence is in a really old man made book which has been changed. It contradicts itself over and over again imo. I have never seen, felt, or heard god. Believing in it would be like believing my grandma is a ghost. Something I could do, but don’t rationally buy.

Faith in another human and faith in an invisible higher power because of old words in a book again have nothing in common to me. If they do to you great, but I don’t think they have anything in common.

72

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Its our turn to ask the questions![/quote]

Will you address the whole of my post if it is in the other thread? Serious question btw?

As for the rights thing, we’ve done that over and over again (or I have). Maybe my view on it is a weird one and I don’t know/don’t care. It doesn’t have much to do with my atheism though and more with my politics. [/quote]

I can easily address this. The evils that were committed in the name of the Church were evils. They were not of right Christian character. I and my Church pray for forgiveness still today. Even those of us who weren’t/aren’t there pray for forgiveness. I’m sorry to disappoint if you thought I would claim that at any moment of time the people of the Church are incapable of failing their faith very badly.

You want to debate forced conversions? No need. They happened and were wrong. Christ gave us no other instruction but to turn around and walk away, knock the dust off our sandals, and move on if our “sales pitch” wasn’t winning anyone over. Or, not to cast pearls to swine and dogs. Calm down, it just means if someone isn’t going to appreciate what you’re “selling,” well, stop.

You’re not going to find evasion with me. I’ll tell you bluntly; WRONG!
But, here’s the thing, I can say that. Can you? They had the might, after all.

If you don’t have energy, or the desire, I understand. You’re right, we’ve been down this road. But I’d sure love to hear your opinion if these folks, who had the might in their time, to do things they did in their time, would only be wrong if somehow they came back to do it today. Yet, in the past, were clearly in the right to do such things, therefore, nobody was wronged in the past.

73

[quote]H factor wrote:

If we had a big population of Buddhists, Mormons, Muslims, etc I would be far more curios about the religious threads to be honest. [/quote]

If you’re curious about Buddhism, start a new thread and I’ll see you there for as long as you have the time. I’ve got about 3 months to kill.

74

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Its our turn to ask the questions![/quote]

Will you address the whole of my post if it is in the other thread? Serious question btw?

As for the rights thing, we’ve done that over and over again (or I have). Maybe my view on it is a weird one and I don’t know/don’t care. It doesn’t have much to do with my atheism though and more with my politics. [/quote]

I can easily address this. The evils that were committed in the name of the Church were evils. They were not of right Christian character. I and my Church pray for forgiveness still today. Even those of us who weren’t/aren’t there pray for forgiveness. I’m sorry to disappoint if you thought I would claim that at any moment of time the people of the Church are incapable of failing their faith very badly.

You want to debate forced conversions? No need. They happened and were wrong. Christ gave us no other instruction but to turn around and walk away, knock the dust off our sandals, and move on if our “sales pitch” wasn’t winning anyone over. Or, not to cast pearls to swine and dogs. Calm down, it just means if someone isn’t going to appreciate what you’re “selling,” well, stop.

You’re not going to find evasion with me. I’ll tell you bluntly; WRONG!
But, here’s the thing, I can say that. Can you? They had the might, after all.

If you don’t have energy, or the desire, I understand. You’re right, we’ve been down this road. But I’d sure love to hear your opinion if these folks, who had the might in their time, to do things they did in their time, would only be wrong if somehow they came back to do it today. Yet, in the past, were clearly in the right to do such things, therefore, nobody was wronged in the past.
[/quote]

Where did I say no one was wronged? We are arguing different things. I never said those things were right. Merely that rights are only as “real” as humans allow them to be. Not that I think slavery was a good thing. Then again, your book was used as a justification for those type of things. The book I follow? Not so much. As far as I know I have never infringed upon someone’s rights.

75

[quote]AceRock wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

If we had a big population of Buddhists, Mormons, Muslims, etc I would be far more curios about the religious threads to be honest. [/quote]

If you’re curious about Buddhism, start a new thread and I’ll see you there for as long as you have the time. I’ve got about 3 months to kill.[/quote]

Sounds good. Lets wait till I get back from break.

76

[quote]H factor wrote:

Where did I say no one was wronged? We are arguing different things. I never said those things were right. [/quote]

Not when I asked about specific situations, I know, so I am asking you.

1.Were the “wronged” actually wronged?

77

[quote]H factor wrote:
I am marrying Liz because she has the qualities I want in a wife. [/quote]

I really think you need to go back to the specific portion of your larger post that I quoted. As that is the only part I was addressing.

You keep adding in a whole bunch of other aspects that I wasn’t addressing with my analogy.

smh figured out where I was coming from.

78

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

Where did I say no one was wronged? We are arguing different things. I never said those things were right. [/quote]

Not when I asked about specific situations, I know, so I am asking you.

1.Were the “wronged” actually wronged?
[/quote]

By my metrics yes.

Those at the time? No.

Do we agree on right and wrong? sometimes, sometimes not. I think it is wrong to have government privileges for certain people based on marital status as long as they are heterosexual. You do not.

Honestly, I’m not sure what the point of this is. My point of rights are that them “existing” only really matters in fun little semantic debates on the internet.

I have rights is a nice thing to say and all, but don’t expect the powerful to listen to you if they feel it is time for your words to not matter.

79

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

If you are going to sit there and tell me you don’t see the blatant similarities between that and faith, you are either full of shit, or afraid you might actually have some. [/quote]

I already addressed this. Similarities exist I guess.

I never said I don’t see how the faithful have faith. I said I can’t work like that.

It is still a poor analogy imo unless you are simply saying you gotta take a risk to get married and you gotta take one to worship or not worship God.

If that is the case then yeah I guess. I still don’t see it as pertinent to the discussion of my lack of faith in a higher power. I have no fucking idea if Liz is the one. I hope so. I have no fucking idea if I’m right about God. I don’t even hope one way or the other.

If I’m wrong and I burn eternally then I burn eternally. I don’t think hell exists if God is real FWIW. Or if it does then God probably isn’t all he’s cracked up to be. You can tell him I said that when you see him. Or I guess he can hear us right. God give me a sign! Your normal ones aren’t working lol!

I haven’t once attempted to argue that I can’t see why the faithful have faith in a higher power. Go back to my original post about how and why I came to believe how I do.

I really don’t spend much time trying to figure out how some people can buy the Bible because I simply can’t no matter how much effort I would put into it.

I have tried numerous times in my life to be and feel faithful. I’m just not. Some people seem to wonder how in the hell I could possibly do good things. I guess I dunno. I can tell you I seem to be a helluva lot better guy than many of those out there professing to believe in a higher power though. In fact from talking to you I’m damn sure you’d rather hang out with me than many of the faithful around my area :wink:

80

[quote]pat wrote:

Sure other people helped you in your life? Same here, why? Because they love you? Perhaps? Why do they love you? What is love? Is there a rational explanation for someone to love you when its no benefit to them to do so? [/quote]

People have helped other people for a multitude of reasons, from selfishness to altruism, and everything in between. Hard to make generalized statements.

People love me because I’m awesome. (Jokes; I couldn’t resist!)

Seriously though, people love for the same reason they feel any other emotion: it is part of the human experience.

Love is an emotion, an experience, and a chemical reaction in the body/brain. It is fantastically dramatized in most western cultures, since the Greeks, at the least. It serves several purposes: reproduction and lowering the murder rate. You always hurt the one you love, sorta thing.

I don’t understand how loving someone ISN’T in their best interest, unless of course you love someone who has severe problems and causes you pain rather than returns that love. Love feels delicious. That’s as selfish as it gets.

[quote]pat wrote:
As far as sourcing your morality and purpose, you don’t think those are reasonable questions? What do you base your morality on? Just yourself? So that if you change your mind about something, then morality itself changes? I don’t think that, and I seriously doubt you believe that.[/quote]

Sure, they are reasonable, but they’re tired.

I base my morality on the affect it has on the world: myself and others.

If my actions cause pain, I call it bad. (Let’s be clear, for Sloth, that this is simply what I call it.)

If my actions cause joy, I call it good. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

As far as changing my mind, yes, I have done exactly that. I decided that I wanted to steal something. I knew it was “wrong” in my belief system, and I thought about it. I needed it more than they did. They were not going to notice, it meant that little to them, but it was valuable to me. So I took it. About a month later, I found out that someone stole my son’s violin. I decided at that point that I should not steal again. If it would have come back to me, like they stole my car, I would have never made the connection, nor learned anything. But you can’t steal from my kid and have it not impact my life, I’m not heartless. Did morality, as an idea/ideal, change because I made a decision? No, but my morals bent around that decision. Then I bent them back.

[quote]pat wrote:
And I don’t know if I have a ‘higher purpose’ or not. I don’t believe I or anything exists for ‘no reason’. I very much side with Spinoza in that there are ‘no brute facts’. It’s not necessary reasonable to believe I exist for some ‘higher purpose’. It’s not reasonable at all to believe I exist for no reason. That I am a brute fact of the universe which itself is not a brute fact.[/quote]

They are both perfectly reasonable, for the exact same reasons. You believe your side, I believe the other. Done.

There is nothing at all you can say/do to prove there is a reason for being. That does not mean there IS no reason, simply there is no PROOF.

Good questions.