[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Could god create a rock so heavy that even he couldn’t lift it?[/quote]
Since God doesn’t lift things that question is flawed. [/quote]
This is a bodybuilding site. If you pray to a god who doesn’t lift you have no business being here so for this site I think the question is not flawed.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Could god create a rock so heavy that even he couldn’t lift it?[/quote]
Since God doesn’t lift things that question is flawed. [/quote]
Not flawed.
Theoretically he could lift if he wanted to.
[/quote]
He lifts spirits.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]AceRock wrote:
Why should I fear the Lord? This is directly from SexMachine’s quote in the believer thread.
How can you base an entire religion and faith upon fear? That’s diametrically opposed to everything I believe in.[/quote]
Fear is the most primal emotion. G-d has the power to utterly destroy us.[/quote]
So God is a terrorist forcing people to think the way he wants to think and if you don’t do it he may kill you/punish you for all eternity.
I guess if you buy that line then that is a good reason to believe! I’ve said this before, if God exists and is all loving then hell probably does not exist. [/quote]
This barely deserves a response. No, G-d is not a terrorist an he gives every chance for repentance. He made a covenant with all mankind never to destroy man again. There are two versions emphasising the obscure nature of the deluge story. G-d has infinite patience but to begin to gain wisdom one must understand his power , our flaws and fear him. If you had read the OT you would understand how many times he has forgiven the most heinous sins of Judah and Israel and accepted their repentance over and over again.
[/quote]
So, point of clarification; would you say that it’s your god’s position that you must love him, or he will utterly destroy you? If you had a loved ne in a similar relationship, would you counsel them to leave, or to just obey?
Does that sound like a loving relationship between creator an creation?
Depends if I had sacrificed my own children to Baal and things like that.
The sort of easy way around omnipotence is to say, “So what if God can make a rock so heavy he couldn’t lift it, he’s still the strongest mofo around.”
Or, “So what if God couldn’t create a rock so heavy he couldn’t lift it, he’s still the strongest mofo around.”
So, he isn’t omnipotent in the hard sense, still the closest thing to it.
The fear thing doesn’t sit at all. Getting people to do things out of fear isn’t an all good thing to do. It would be one thing if God weren’t omnipotent, it would be another if he isn’t good.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
The sort of easy way around omnipotence is to say, “So what if God can make a rock so heavy he couldn’t lift it, he’s still the strongest mofo around.”
Or, “So what if God couldn’t create a rock so heavy he couldn’t lift it, he’s still the strongest mofo around.”
So, he isn’t omnipotent in the hard sense, still the closest thing to it.
[/quote]
It’s called the ‘omnipotence paradox’ and has numerous answers. You can look them yourself Mr Tedium.
[quote]
The fear thing doesn’t sit at all. Getting people to do things out of fear isn’t an all good thing to do. It would be one thing if God weren’t omnipotent, it would be another if he isn’t good. [/quote]
Whether or not that ‘sits with you’ is of absolutely no concern to me fella.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
The sort of easy way around omnipotence is to say, “So what if God can make a rock so heavy he couldn’t lift it, he’s still the strongest mofo around.”
Or, “So what if God couldn’t create a rock so heavy he couldn’t lift it, he’s still the strongest mofo around.”
So, he isn’t omnipotent in the hard sense, still the closest thing to it.
[/quote]
It’s called the ‘omnipotence paradox’ and has numerous answers. You can look them yourself Mr Tedium.
[quote]
The fear thing doesn’t sit at all. Getting people to do things out of fear isn’t an all good thing to do. It would be one thing if God weren’t omnipotent, it would be another if he isn’t good. [/quote]
Whether or not that ‘sits with you’ is of absolutely no concern to me fella.[/quote]
I know, I studied it. There aren’t any ways around the paradox other than the one I gave actually.
There are also things like Pascals wager. One may as well believe in God, just in case there is a heaven is essentially what it is. The problem being you cant fake faith, if God is omniscient he will know whether you truly believe in him or just go through the motions. Must have been nice to be Thomas.
You don’t care what I think about getting people to do things out of fear. Well, something about the way I’m wired has had me challenging my fears my whole life. Have you ever heard of the fallacy called Ad baculum? Well that’s one of the problems religious people need to address if they are going to be honest about answering questions about fear and God.
How is it okay for God to fear people into faith, but not okay for us to bully?
God, the church, most faiths have this fallacy intwined. Basically, the only way to heaven is through me. (not stated that otherwise you go to hell)
Some forms of Islam claim the only way to heaven is to follow Muhammad.
Can’t be all good and be a bully.
What I like about Islamic people, well some is that they often refer to really great deeds and good things as Godly acts, that means acting in a Godlike manner. So, how does this one get resolved? Otherwise, you can be a bully and be Godly, and good.
Otherwise, next time some kid bullies your kid, he’s doing Gods work.
[quote]severiano
I know, I studied it. There aren’t any ways around the paradox other than the one I gave actually.
[\quote]
Yes there are but having ‘studied it’ you should know.
[quote]
There are also things like Pascals wager. One may as well believe in God, just in case there is a heaven is essentially what it is. [\quote]
Really? Pascal’s wager? Did you study that too with flying teapots?
[quote]
The problem being you cant fake faith, if God is omniscient he will know whether you truly believe in him or just go through the motions. Must have been nice to be Thomas.
[\quote]
And he knows the nature of G-d as we’ll? And the nature of omnipotence? Why did G-d have to ask Cain where Abel was? Why did he have to ask Adam and Eve why they were ashamed? Why did he have to call out to them in the garden? Didn’t he know where they were?
[quote]
You don’t care what I think about getting people to do things out of fear.[\quote]
No, that is very far from what I said unless you happen to be g-d.
[quote]
something about the way I’m wired has had me challenging my fears my whole life. Have you ever heard of the fallacy called Ad baculum? Well that’s one of the problems religious people need to address if they are going to be honest about answering questions about fear and God.
How is it okay for God to fear people into faith, but not okay for us to bully?
[\quote]
He doesn’t ‘bully’ he sends prophets to warn then unleashes his anger at man’s sin .
[quote]
God, the church, most faiths have this fallacy intwined. Basically, the only way to heaven is through me. (not stated that otherwise you go to hell)
Some forms of Islam claim the only way to heaven is to follow Muhammad.
Can’t be all good and be a bully.
What I like about Islamic people, well some is that they often refer to really great deeds and good things as Godly acts, that means acting in a Godlike manner. So, how does this one get resolved? [/quote]
You like Islamic people and you want some guy on the net to resolve paradoxes that have perplexed the greatest minds for millennia? Good luck with that.
The stuff you are discussing is Philosophy 101. The problem with the paradox that is brought up has to do with what is logically possible on this world that supposedly God created. The way around the argument is essentially to say that God created the universe to operate this way, one where you cannot do things that are logically impossible as to confuse the way certain things are defined.
Rather than talk about a stone so heavy it cannot be lifted, another challenge is to ask God to make a square circle. They are things that cannot be one another by definition and logically impossible. That is why my solution to your problem is the only one. It has to do with the way the universe works, that God created. One could just say, God could do that, but he would have to make another universe to do such where it isn’t logically impossible. So, God is indeed omnipotent in so far as logically possible things go. We are not square circles or contradictory things being compared to one another, so God is still the baddest mofo around (if he exists).
Does that answer suffice? Because it’s the best one you will probably ever hear/ read that is pro religion.
Problem is, God isn’t all good. It’s a worse problem than God not being omnipotent because it questions his morality rather than his power. An immoral God isn’t worth following.
Guess what? The lady my mother named my Godmother is Islamic. I’ve had Islamic peers in college and have befriended Islamic people as well as Jews and Hindi and Buddhist, and Sikh. People are people, whether they are good or not isn’t dependent on their faith or lack thereof.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
The stuff you are discussing is Philosophy 101. The problem with the paradox that is brought up has to do with what is logically possible on this world that supposedly God created. The way around the argument is essentially to say that God created the universe to operate this way, one where you cannot do things that are logically impossible as to confuse the way certain things are defined.
Rather than talk about a stone so heavy it cannot be lifted, another challenge is to ask God to make a square circle. They are things that cannot be one another by definition and logically impossible. That is why my solution to your problem is the only one. It has to do with the way the universe works, that God created. One could just say, God could do that, but he would have to make another universe to do such where it isn’t logically impossible. So, God is indeed omnipotent in so far as logically possible things go. We are not square circles or contradictory things being compared to one another, so God is still the baddest mofo around (if he exists).
Does that answer suffice? Because it’s the best one you will probably ever hear/ read that is pro religion.
Problem is, God isn’t all good. It’s a worse problem than God not being omnipotent because it questions his morality rather than his power. An immoral God isn’t worth following.
Guess what? The lady my mother named my Godmother is Islamic. I’ve had Islamic peers in college and have befriended Islamic people as well as Jews and Hindi and Buddhist, and Sikh. People are people, whether they are good or not isn’t dependent on their faith or lack thereof.[/quote]
Yeah, I had a friend who was an alien. Super cool. Now I wear sandals, sport a silver ponytail, drink decade skim late and show off my obsequiousness and servility to any foreigner I can find.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]AceRock wrote:
Why should I fear the Lord? This is directly from SexMachine’s quote in the believer thread.
How can you base an entire religion and faith upon fear? That’s diametrically opposed to everything I believe in.[/quote]
Fear is the most primal emotion. G-d has the power to utterly destroy us.[/quote]
So God is a terrorist forcing people to think the way he wants to think and if you don’t do it he may kill you/punish you for all eternity.
I guess if you buy that line then that is a good reason to believe! I’ve said this before, if God exists and is all loving then hell probably does not exist. [/quote]
This barely deserves a response. No, G-d is not a terrorist an he gives every chance for repentance. He made a covenant with all mankind never to destroy man again. There are two versions emphasising the obscure nature of the deluge story. G-d has infinite patience but to begin to gain wisdom one must understand his power , our flaws and fear him. If you had read the OT you would understand how many times he has forgiven the most heinous sins of Judah and Israel and accepted their repentance over and over again.
[/quote]
So, point of clarification; would you say that it’s your god’s position that you must love him, or he will utterly destroy you? If you had a loved ne in a similar relationship, would you counsel them to leave, or to just obey?
Does that sound like a loving relationship between creator an creation? [/quote]
Let’s say you have a child. You love said child with all your heart, but he gets in to the mafia, starts killing people, practices extortion, and runs a prostitution ring, but want’s to live in your house, but will not obey your rules. Do you kick him out, or let him sit there and run roughshod over you? If you kick him out, does that mean you love him less?
[quote]pat wrote:
Let’s say you have a child. You love said child with all your heart, but he gets in to the mafia, starts killing people, practices extortion, and runs a prostitution ring, but want’s to live in your house, but will not obey your rules. Do you kick him out, or let him sit there and run roughshod over you? If you kick him out, does that mean you love him less?[/quote]
When I have a kid I can let them know the rules.
No one agrees on what God’s rules are or how many he has or how many are worth following or not. Or what his rules mean?
So does that mean heaven is reserved for those who guess correctly and hell is for all the people who did wrong on the multiple choice test?
It’s an analogy that works unless you peer a bit deeper into it. We have clear rules against the things you mentioned. And yet Fred Phelps thought he was doing exactly what God wanted. About as clear as mud.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]AceRock wrote:
Why should I fear the Lord? This is directly from SexMachine’s quote in the believer thread.
How can you base an entire religion and faith upon fear? That’s diametrically opposed to everything I believe in.[/quote]
Fear is the most primal emotion. G-d has the power to utterly destroy us.[/quote]
So God is a terrorist forcing people to think the way he wants to think and if you don’t do it he may kill you/punish you for all eternity.
I guess if you buy that line then that is a good reason to believe! I’ve said this before, if God exists and is all loving then hell probably does not exist. [/quote]
This barely deserves a response. No, G-d is not a terrorist an he gives every chance for repentance. He made a covenant with all mankind never to destroy man again. There are two versions emphasising the obscure nature of the deluge story. G-d has infinite patience but to begin to gain wisdom one must understand his power , our flaws and fear him. If you had read the OT you would understand how many times he has forgiven the most heinous sins of Judah and Israel and accepted their repentance over and over again.
[/quote]
So, point of clarification; would you say that it’s your god’s position that you must love him, or he will utterly destroy you? If you had a loved ne in a similar relationship, would you counsel them to leave, or to just obey?
Does that sound like a loving relationship between creator an creation? [/quote]
Let’s say you have a child. You love said child with all your heart, but he gets in to the mafia, starts killing people, practices extortion, and runs a prostitution ring, but want’s to live in your house, but will not obey your rules. Do you kick him out, or let him sit there and run roughshod over you? If you kick him out, does that mean you love him less?[/quote]
I don’t think the above scenario speaks to my question. However, in that scenario, would you burn your child for an eternity? Would you burn your child for an eternity for simply not returning your love?
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
However, in that scenario, would you burn your child for an eternity? Would you burn your child for an eternity for simply not returning your love?
[/quote]
Those that know what not feeling loved by a parent is like, understand that for a parent that does love you, to turn you away, is being “burned”. But it is only an eternity if the child forcing his parent’s hand wants it to be.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
However, in that scenario, would you burn your child for an eternity? Would you burn your child for an eternity for simply not returning your love?
[/quote]
Those that know what not feeling loved by a parent is like, understand that for a parent that does love you, to turn you away, is being “burned”. But it is only an eternity if the child forcing his parent’s hand wants it to be. [/quote]
No no, I’m talking about litrally burning your child for an eternity, for simply not returning love. Would you do that?
Of course, to the god of abraham, nothing says “love” quite like the willingness to carve out your own son’s heart.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Problem is, God isn’t all good. [/quote]
Sure he is, since he defines “good.”
He wouldn’t be immoral.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Of course, to the god of abraham, nothing says “love” quite like the willingness to carve out your own son’s heart.[/quote]
lol. I mean, I don’t take those stories literally, so any lessons I would learn from them, aren’t really going to satisfy your questions.
What objective-absolute-atheistic-morality commandments are being used to judge God, again?
“We don’t believe in objective/absolute morality, since it can’t be measured.” Then your judgements of God are useless.
Or
“I can’t show them to you, but morality does exists with which we get to judge God.” Faith!