Religious Questions from Atheists or Agnostics

[SexMachine]

[quote]pat wrote:

I love your screen name. It’s great because it exposes preconceived notions and then quashes them when you express your views.
I think doing your best is all you need to do. I can tell you from personal experience God will not turn his back on you. Don’t fall into the trap that makes you feel that you have made yourself somehow so unworthy, that you don’t deserve God’s love or help. I know I have fallen into that trap myself recently too. It’s not about screwing up, it’s what you do about it. Mainly keeping that trust in God. It’s between you and Him.
Like I said, I know what it’s like to live like a part cripple, to be in constant pain, to have hopeless prognosises. It’s in this humble state, the state of complete vulnerability and dependence on something you cannot see, hear, touch, taste of feel. But it always works, always. I have hope for the future and you do too.
We all have our crosses, we also have our choices. We can be angry and bitter, or we can lean on God. Really, where can we go to? Ourselves? We’d make terrible little gods. Others? I have been betrayed more than once in my life.
In someway we are in it together, I am no stranger to suffering.
[/quote]

The worst part about being crippled for me is that others perceive me as weak. I’m supposed to be wearing two cam boots and crutches. I left the boots at hospital and threw the crutches away on my first day home. The downside of this is walking like someone with cerebral palsy. Extreme pain in both feet and shooting pains up the tibia. I wear shoes with no support. My philosophy being that the muscles will strengthen faster without support, the ligaments will stretch quicker and the bone density will increase at a more rapid rate.

What perplexes me is why the pain is getting worse over time. I think the surgeons fucked up. There are so many people I want to sue I don’t know where to start. In some cases I’m just going to have to try to forget about it. Like the policeman who pushed me over in the hospital because I assertively demanded to see a doctor. He lied; claimed he’d recorded an event number and taken witness statements. The ER staff just watched and did nothing.

[pat]

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I love your screen name. It’s great because it exposes preconceived notions and then quashes them when you express your views.
I think doing your best is all you need to do. I can tell you from personal experience God will not turn his back on you. Don’t fall into the trap that makes you feel that you have made yourself somehow so unworthy, that you don’t deserve God’s love or help. I know I have fallen into that trap myself recently too. It’s not about screwing up, it’s what you do about it. Mainly keeping that trust in God. It’s between you and Him.
Like I said, I know what it’s like to live like a part cripple, to be in constant pain, to have hopeless prognosises. It’s in this humble state, the state of complete vulnerability and dependence on something you cannot see, hear, touch, taste of feel. But it always works, always. I have hope for the future and you do too.
We all have our crosses, we also have our choices. We can be angry and bitter, or we can lean on God. Really, where can we go to? Ourselves? We’d make terrible little gods. Others? I have been betrayed more than once in my life.
In someway we are in it together, I am no stranger to suffering.
[/quote]

The worst part about being crippled for me is that others perceive me as weak. I’m supposed to be wearing two cam boots and crutches. I left the boots at hospital and threw the crutches away on my first day home. The downside of this is walking like someone with cerebral palsy. Extreme pain in both feet and shooting pains up the tibia. I wear shoes with no support. My philosophy being that the muscles will strengthen faster without support, the ligaments will stretch quicker and the bone density will increase at a more rapid rate.

What perplexes me is why the pain is getting worse over time. I think the surgeons fucked up. There are so many people I want to sue I don’t know where to start. In some cases I’m just going to have to try to forget about it. Like the policeman who pushed me over in the hospital because I assertively demanded to see a doctor. He lied; claimed he’d recorded an event number and taken witness statements. The ER staff just watched and did nothing.[/quote]

Surgeons fucking up is not out of the realm of possibility. Right now, you have to concentrate on getting better… Suing isn’t going to make your pain go away. You need to get pain management and then rigorously search for cure.
These days litigation is very, very difficult. All the petty litigation of the past has made it really hard to sue. You have to be able to prove gross negligence or malpractice and even if you can, its no guarantee.

My problem isn’t others perceiving me weak, it’s becoming weak. Mind over matter only helps so much, eventually matter wins.
I have a surgery planned in June. If all goes well, that should fix my problem. It’s basically correcting the past surgery. I have been struggling for the past 3 years and yes the pain gets worse all the time.
A lot of people understand pain, very few understand chronic, constant, unrelenting pain.

I learned a lot about faith through suffering, I know humility, I know reliance, I know having to trust without verification. I learned that I am not alone. God hasn’t spared me the cross, but he has always answered my prayers. My big problem is my lack of patience. I want the surgery tomorrow, I have to wait until June. But I went from a grimmest of prognoses to hope. Keep the faith, continue to seek a cure.

[SexMachine]

[quote]pat wrote:

I love your screen name. It’s great because it exposes preconceived notions and then quashes them when you express your views.
I think doing your best is all you need to do. I can tell you from personal experience God will not turn his back on you.

[/quote]

We have very different belief systems pat. I’ll leave it at that.

Don’t fall into the trap that makes you feel that you have made yourself somehow so unworthy, that you don’t deserve God’s love or help.

We’re all unworthy.

I know I have fallen into that trap myself recently too. It’s not about screwing up, it’s what you do about it. Mainly keeping that trust in God. It’s between you and Him.

Like I said, I know what it’s like to live like a part cripple, to be in constant pain, to have hopeless prognosises. It’s in this humble state, the state of complete vulnerability and dependence on something you cannot see, hear, touch, taste of feel. But it always works, always. I have hope for the future and you do too.
We all have our crosses, we also have our choices. We can be angry and bitter, or we can lean on God. Really, where can we go to? Ourselves? We’d make terrible little gods. Others? I have been betrayed more than once in my life.
In someway we are in it together, I am no stranger to suffering.

Surgeons fucking up is not out of the realm of possibility. Right now, you have to concentrate on getting better… Suing isn’t going to make your pain go away. You need to get pain management and then rigorously search for cure.

I have a lot of experience of pain management from caring for dying family. A pain management specialist puts you on a slow release pain killer. These are the most addictive of all. I’m talking years of psychological addiction. Whereas something like heroin or oxycodone is instant release and any withdrawals subside within about 7 days. I’m not going to the pain clinic. I’m going to drive my car around Australia till I can walk then I’m off overseas.

These days litigation is very, very difficult. All the petty litigation of the past has made it really hard to sue. You have to be able to prove gross negligence or malpractice and even if you can, its no guarantee.

You don’t need to tell me. But it’s all I dwell about and I’m afraid I’ll do something against my own interests if I don’t seek an eye for an eye. It’s more about protecting myself than getting payback.

My problem isn’t others perceiving me weak, it’s becoming weak. Mind over matter only helps so much, eventually matter wins.

It amounts to the same thing really.

I have a surgery planned in June. If all goes well, that should fix my problem. It’s basically correcting the past surgery. I have been struggling for the past 3 years and yes the pain gets worse all the time.
A lot of people understand pain, very few understand chronic, constant, unrelenting pain.

Good luck. Ask your surgeon why he needs to ‘correct’ his work. Be assertive.

I learned a lot about faith through suffering, I know humility, I know reliance, I know having to trust without verification. I learned that I am not alone. God hasn’t spared me the cross, but he has always answered my prayers. My big problem is my lack of patience. I want the surgery tomorrow, I have to wait until June. But I went from a grimmest of prognoses to hope. Keep the faith, continue to seek a cure.
[/quote]

I learned about suffering long ago and it made me mentally stronger - but also sometimes aggressive

[pat]

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I love your screen name. It’s great because it exposes preconceived notions and then quashes them when you express your views.
I think doing your best is all you need to do. I can tell you from personal experience God will not turn his back on you.

[/quote]

We have very different belief systems pat. I’ll leave it at that.

Don’t fall into the trap that makes you feel that you have made yourself somehow so unworthy, that you don’t deserve God’s love or help.

We’re all unworthy.

I know I have fallen into that trap myself recently too. It’s not about screwing up, it’s what you do about it. Mainly keeping that trust in God. It’s between you and Him.

Like I said, I know what it’s like to live like a part cripple, to be in constant pain, to have hopeless prognosises. It’s in this humble state, the state of complete vulnerability and dependence on something you cannot see, hear, touch, taste of feel. But it always works, always. I have hope for the future and you do too.
We all have our crosses, we also have our choices. We can be angry and bitter, or we can lean on God. Really, where can we go to? Ourselves? We’d make terrible little gods. Others? I have been betrayed more than once in my life.
In someway we are in it together, I am no stranger to suffering.

Surgeons fucking up is not out of the realm of possibility. Right now, you have to concentrate on getting better… Suing isn’t going to make your pain go away. You need to get pain management and then rigorously search for cure.

I have a lot of experience of pain management from caring for dying family. A pain management specialist puts you on a slow release pain killer. These are the most addictive of all. I’m talking years of psychological addiction. Whereas something like heroin or oxycodone is instant release and any withdrawals subside within about 7 days. I’m not going to the pain clinic. I’m going to drive my car around Australia till I can walk then I’m off overseas.

These days litigation is very, very difficult. All the petty litigation of the past has made it really hard to sue. You have to be able to prove gross negligence or malpractice and even if you can, its no guarantee.

You don’t need to tell me. But it’s all I dwell about and I’m afraid I’ll do something against my own interests if I don’t seek an eye for an eye. It’s more about protecting myself than getting payback.

My problem isn’t others perceiving me weak, it’s becoming weak. Mind over matter only helps so much, eventually matter wins.

It amounts to the same thing really.

I have a surgery planned in June. If all goes well, that should fix my problem. It’s basically correcting the past surgery. I have been struggling for the past 3 years and yes the pain gets worse all the time.
A lot of people understand pain, very few understand chronic, constant, unrelenting pain.

Good luck. Ask your surgeon why he needs to ‘correct’ his work. Be assertive.

I learned a lot about faith through suffering, I know humility, I know reliance, I know having to trust without verification. I learned that I am not alone. God hasn’t spared me the cross, but he has always answered my prayers. My big problem is my lack of patience. I want the surgery tomorrow, I have to wait until June. But I went from a grimmest of prognoses to hope. Keep the faith, continue to seek a cure.
[/quote]

I learned about suffering long ago and it made me mentally stronger - but also sometimes aggressive[/quote]

Can you fix the quotes?

[AceRock]

Why should I fear the Lord? This is directly from SexMachine’s quote in the believer thread.

How can you base an entire religion and faith upon fear? That’s diametrically opposed to everything I believe in.

[238]

[quote]AceRock wrote:
Why should I fear the Lord? This is directly from SexMachine’s quote in the believer thread.
[/quote]

Because He is an omnipotent being who could end everything in an instant. This sounds a bit more smartass than some of my other answers, but in my view that’s simply what it comes down to. If you believe in God being who He says He is, then I feel it’d be a smart idea to at least fear His power (and by extension, God Himself) just on account of what it could do.

On a personal example, I had to order in some mercury last week. It came in a plastic bottle sealed in a metal can with big warning signs about how it could cause all kinds of nasty health issues. On the one hand it’s just a non-sentient liquid, has many uses and I need it for my experiments. On the other hand looking at it made me a bit nervous and wonder what on earth I’m doing with it. That nervousness isn’t going to stop me from using it, but you can be certain that I’ll be very careful handling the stuff.

In the same way I believe that while God is good and loving, He is also fearsome because of His justice, e.g. the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and others. Maybe call it a respectful fear? I don’t see the two as contradictory, although I suppose your viewpoint may differ on that one.

[quote]AceRock wrote:
How can you base an entire religion and faith upon fear? That’s diametrically opposed to everything I believe in.[/quote]

It shouldn’t be based on fear. Some groups haven’t seen it like this (various hellfire and brimstone preachers, for example), but the two greatest commandments are to love the Lord and love your neighbour as yourself (Matt 26:36-40). However, that doesn’t mean there should be a complete absence of fear. Perhaps there shouldn’t be any fear of earthly things, but definitely some fear of God, as mentioned above.

[AceRock]

[quote]238 wrote:

[quote]AceRock wrote:
Why should I fear the Lord? This is directly from SexMachine’s quote in the believer thread.
[/quote]

Because He is an omnipotent being who could end everything in an instant. This sounds a bit more smartass than some of my other answers, but in my view that’s simply what it comes down to. If you believe in God being who He says He is, then I feel it’d be a smart idea to at least fear His power (and by extension, God Himself) just on account of what it could do.

On a personal example, I had to order in some mercury last week. It came in a plastic bottle sealed in a metal can with big warning signs about how it could cause all kinds of nasty health issues. On the one hand it’s just a non-sentient liquid, has many uses and I need it for my experiments. On the other hand looking at it made me a bit nervous and wonder what on earth I’m doing with it. That nervousness isn’t going to stop me from using it, but you can be certain that I’ll be very careful handling the stuff.

In the same way I believe that while God is good and loving, He is also fearsome because of His justice, e.g. the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and others. Maybe call it a respectful fear? I don’t see the two as contradictory, although I suppose your viewpoint may differ on that one.

[quote]AceRock wrote:
How can you base an entire religion and faith upon fear? That’s diametrically opposed to everything I believe in.[/quote]

It shouldn’t be based on fear. Some groups haven’t seen it like this (various hellfire and brimstone preachers, for example), but the two greatest commandments are to love the Lord and love your neighbour as yourself (Matt 26:36-40). However, that doesn’t mean there should be a complete absence of fear. Perhaps there shouldn’t be any fear of earthly things, but definitely some fear of God, as mentioned above.[/quote]

Believe me, if there’s anything I fear, it’s a flood. Like a “Holy Shit, where’s the ark” kinda flood, a tsunami, a wall of water, whatever. Good grief.

(Side note, Noah looks pretty epic, literally.)

I understand that He’s big, and we’re small. He could kill us all, sure. But why would He want to?

We covered this previously, about the shift in direct punishments from the OT and the NT. Sodom and Gomorrah seems quite direct. Have there been no places like that since? Does Vegas not fit the bill? Is it a timeline thing, so eventually He will crush the place? Or did he get over it and now we’re just cruising until judgment day?

Is there an accepted timeline for the second coming? Have people always been sure the world was going to end in their lifetime or are we, as a generation (or two, give or take), just that self-important?

[238]

[quote]AceRock wrote:
Believe me, if there’s anything I fear, it’s a flood. Like a “Holy Shit, where’s the ark” kinda flood, a tsunami, a wall of water, whatever. Good grief.

(Side note, Noah looks pretty epic, literally.)

I understand that He’s big, and we’re small. He could kill us all, sure. But why would He want to?
[/quote]

Because while He loves us, He must also be just and have every sin accounted for, whether it’s on us or Christ. And the wages of sin are death. The analogy about you sentencing your own son would apply here. You wouldn’t want to, but if you can’t be recused then you’ve got to do it.

[quote]AceRock wrote:
We covered this previously, about the shift in direct punishments from the OT and the NT. Sodom and Gomorrah seems quite direct. Have there been no places like that since? Does Vegas not fit the bill? Is it a timeline thing, so eventually He will crush the place? Or did he get over it and now we’re just cruising until judgment day?
[/quote]

The NT indicates that God is withholding judgement in general so that more might come to Him for salvation. That might be enough to say that there haven’t been any events like that, but on the other side that doesn’t exclude specific punishments, and there’ve been people proclaiming that every destructive storm and earthquake is God’s wrath.

Given both of those sides I would generally lean more towards the former, given my reading of events in both OT and NT, but at the same time I wouldn’t be surprised if certain destructive events turned out to be God’s wrath. No way to tell though, given where the historical records in the Bible end.

It also seems to fit into God’s character in general, looking through the OT and NT where as I surmised before there were a lot of sins that went unpunished in an immediate sense, just that they weren’t recorded for lack of space (and national significance in the OT).

With that said, I wouldn’t call the non-destruction of cities today “getting over it”, given that it’s still going to happen, whether as a discrete event or at the world’s end.

An interesting observation, though, is what happened prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. In Genesis 18:16-33 God says to Abraham that He’s going to destroy the place. Abraham pleads for the city by asking about what will happen to the righteous people in the city. Verse 26:

‘The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”’

That was eventually whittled down to ten and even then there weren’t ten righteous people in Sodom so it might be a moot point for them, but from that passage I can say that God may spare places purely because of the presence of those who are faithful to Him. But whether or not that’s the actual case in the world today would be up for debate.

[quote]AceRock wrote:
Is there an accepted timeline for the second coming? Have people always been sure the world was going to end in their lifetime or are we, as a generation (or two, give or take), just that self-important?[/quote]

Biblically speaking there’s no accepted timeline. I think the best passage I can direct you towards would be Matthew 24, and verse 36 in particular:

‘But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.’

Seems pretty straightforward to me, although I’m not sure how any doomsday prophets explain that passage.

[SexMachine]

[quote]AceRock wrote:
Why should I fear the Lord? This is directly from SexMachine’s quote in the believer thread.

How can you base an entire religion and faith upon fear? That’s diametrically opposed to everything I believe in.[/quote]

Fear is the most primal emotion. G-d has the power to utterly destroy us.

[H_factor]

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]AceRock wrote:
Why should I fear the Lord? This is directly from SexMachine’s quote in the believer thread.

How can you base an entire religion and faith upon fear? That’s diametrically opposed to everything I believe in.[/quote]

Fear is the most primal emotion. G-d has the power to utterly destroy us.[/quote]

So God is a terrorist forcing people to think the way he wants to think and if you don’t do it he may kill you/punish you for all eternity.

I guess if you buy that line then that is a good reason to believe! I’ve said this before, if God exists and is all loving then hell probably does not exist.

[SexMachine]

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]AceRock wrote:
Why should I fear the Lord? This is directly from SexMachine’s quote in the believer thread.

How can you base an entire religion and faith upon fear? That’s diametrically opposed to everything I believe in.[/quote]

Fear is the most primal emotion. G-d has the power to utterly destroy us.[/quote]

So God is a terrorist forcing people to think the way he wants to think and if you don’t do it he may kill you/punish you for all eternity.

I guess if you buy that line then that is a good reason to believe! I’ve said this before, if God exists and is all loving then hell probably does not exist. [/quote]

This barely deserves a response. No, G-d is not a terrorist an he gives every chance for repentance. He made a covenant with all mankind never to destroy man again. There are two versions emphasising the obscure nature of the deluge story. G-d has infinite patience but to begin to gain wisdom one must understand his power , our flaws and fear him. If you had read the OT you would understand how many times he has forgiven the most heinous sins of Judah and Israel and accepted their repentance over and over again.

[AceRock]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Fear in this context means respect, be in awe, and worship. It is not really about being skeered.[/quote]

Thanks, I laughed. Good stuff. Makes sense, too.

[AceRock]

[quote]238 wrote:

[quote]AceRock wrote:
Believe me, if there’s anything I fear, it’s a flood. Like a “Holy Shit, where’s the ark” kinda flood, a tsunami, a wall of water, whatever. Good grief.

(Side note, Noah looks pretty epic, literally.)

I understand that He’s big, and we’re small. He could kill us all, sure. But why would He want to?
[/quote]

Because while He loves us, He must also be just and have every sin accounted for, whether it’s on us or Christ. And the wages of sin are death. The analogy about you sentencing your own son would apply here. You wouldn’t want to, but if you can’t be recused then you’ve got to do it.

[quote]AceRock wrote:
We covered this previously, about the shift in direct punishments from the OT and the NT. Sodom and Gomorrah seems quite direct. Have there been no places like that since? Does Vegas not fit the bill? Is it a timeline thing, so eventually He will crush the place? Or did he get over it and now we’re just cruising until judgment day?
[/quote]

The NT indicates that God is withholding judgement in general so that more might come to Him for salvation. That might be enough to say that there haven’t been any events like that, but on the other side that doesn’t exclude specific punishments, and there’ve been people proclaiming that every destructive storm and earthquake is God’s wrath.

Given both of those sides I would generally lean more towards the former, given my reading of events in both OT and NT, but at the same time I wouldn’t be surprised if certain destructive events turned out to be God’s wrath. No way to tell though, given where the historical records in the Bible end.

It also seems to fit into God’s character in general, looking through the OT and NT where as I surmised before there were a lot of sins that went unpunished in an immediate sense, just that they weren’t recorded for lack of space (and national significance in the OT).

With that said, I wouldn’t call the non-destruction of cities today “getting over it”, given that it’s still going to happen, whether as a discrete event or at the world’s end.

An interesting observation, though, is what happened prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. In Genesis 18:16-33 God says to Abraham that He’s going to destroy the place. Abraham pleads for the city by asking about what will happen to the righteous people in the city. Verse 26:

‘The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”’

That was eventually whittled down to ten and even then there weren’t ten righteous people in Sodom so it might be a moot point for them, but from that passage I can say that God may spare places purely because of the presence of those who are faithful to Him. But whether or not that’s the actual case in the world today would be up for debate.

[quote]AceRock wrote:
Is there an accepted timeline for the second coming? Have people always been sure the world was going to end in their lifetime or are we, as a generation (or two, give or take), just that self-important?[/quote]

Biblically speaking there’s no accepted timeline. I think the best passage I can direct you towards would be Matthew 24, and verse 36 in particular:

‘But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.’

Seems pretty straightforward to me, although I’m not sure how any doomsday prophets explain that passage.[/quote]

238, you really have a knack for this stuff. Patience is strong with this one.

That’s mostly what I expected, the waiting for the end times bit. And the quote about the timing is about as clear-cut as it gets. Thanks again for your constant efforts.

S&G sounds like a pretty f-d up place, can’t find 10 good peeps… jeez.

[H_factor]

[quote]SexMachine wrote: No, G-d is not a terrorist an he gives every chance for repentance. He made a covenant with all mankind never to destroy man again.
[/quote]

Read that a few times and see if you laugh as much as I am laughing. I’ll make you a deal I won’t destroy you AGAIN if you do what I say? But it’s not bad because he gives you a chance as long as you do everything he tells you to do and you don’t mess any of it up.

And what of the people he created like me who logically cannot fathom his existence based on the limited evidence? I guess my enjoyment of warmer weather will serve me well?

Then again you’ve been very picky with certain parts of the Bible and not with other ones. I guess you’ve decided on the parts that you believe are true. I did the same.

Also you seem to be bragging about the part that God can utterly destroy us. I believe if he exists that he would never want to. No matter what we do.

[SexMachine]

[quoteNo, G-d is not a terrorist an he gives every chance for repentance. He made a covenant with all mankind never to destroy man again.
[/quote]

Hfactoids :

Read that a few times and see if you laugh as much as I am laughing. I’ll make you a deal I won’t destroy you AGAIN if you do what I say? But it’s not bad because he gives you a chance as long as you do everything he tells you to do and you don’t mess any of it up.
Even hfactoids quote

Google tedium…

Hfactoids quote:
And what of the people he created like me who logically cannot fathom his existence based on the limited evidence? I guess my enjoyment of warmer weather will serve me well?

Then again you’ve been very picky with certain parts of the Bible and not with other ones. I guess you’ve decided on the parts that you believe are true. I did the same.

Also you seem to be bragging about the part that God can utterly destroy us. I believe if he exists that he would never want to. No matter what we do. End factoids quote

Nice talk in’ to you fella

[SexMachine]

Oh. And please fight the temptation to respond.

[therajraj]

Could god create a rock so heavy that even he couldn’t lift it?

[zecarlo]

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Could god create a rock so heavy that even he couldn’t lift it?[/quote]
Since God doesn’t lift things that question is flawed.

[therajraj]

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Could god create a rock so heavy that even he couldn’t lift it?[/quote]
Since God doesn’t lift things that question is flawed. [/quote]

Not flawed.

Theoretically he could lift if he wanted to.