Religious Questions from Atheists or Agnostics

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

I guess I should have seen it coming, it’s fairly typical. It’s the same thing I get from everyone. “You must have faith.” How? You may as well tell me to fly to the moon.

I know it wasn’t personal, but I’m sincerely shocked you don’t understand my frustration with that kind of circular reasoning.

I’m not mad at you at all. I asked an honest question, and you gave your honest answer. I can’t fault you for that, but I truly expected (of you, especially) a somewhat more reasonable (ironic, I know) answer.

Thanks for the attempt. I’ll keep waiting for anyone to field a different kind of response.

202

[quote]AceRock wrote:
If I asked God for the answers to my questions, and I did not receive an answer, then what?[/quote]

There is a story about a man on a roof during a flood.

Praying for God to save him.

Dog floats buy on a picnic table, panting and looking at him.

Man says, “God will save me, just like he saved that dog.”

Man keeps praying, and the water is at his knees now.

A fellow pulls up near him in a small fishing boat, “Buddy, get in, the water is rising fast.”

The man says “don’t worry fellow, God will hear me and save me.”

The man continues to pray, harder, faster, pleading more and more. The water is up to his chest now.

A gentleman in a helicopter hovers over head, “Fine sir, please find your way unto my ladder, less you drown here and now on the roof of your home.”

The man says “don’t worry, I believe, I have faith, God will save me.”

During his next prayer the tide catches him and he drowns.

Upon getting into heaven the man walks right up to God and demands to know how he would let him die, he prayed, he had faith, he lived his life as he should, and God let him die."

God replies “I sent you table, a boat and a helicopter.”

Now for years I’ve heard this story and thought “see how dumb religion makes people?” But then a couple months ago I was pulling out of Lowes and was pretty stressed out, wasn’t paying attention and just randomly stopped my car. No reason what so ever, I just stopped. An instant later a car came flying by, and had I not stopped, the accident would have been significant for the person in the other car. I likely would have seriously injured them.

My first reaction was to look up and say thank you. And then that story made a lot more sense.

If we aren’t ready to hear them, or our expectations are outlandish, we wont’ hear the answers that are right in front of our face, obvious or not.

[quote]
Now what? What does that leave me?[/quote]

Don’t know, lol.

203

[quote]AceRock wrote:
I guess I should have seen it coming, it’s fairly typical. It’s the same thing I get from everyone. “You must have faith.” How? You may as well tell me to fly to the moon.

I know it wasn’t personal, but I’m sincerely shocked you don’t understand my frustration with that kind of circular reasoning.[/quote]

It’s sort of like loving what I love. If you’ve explored the things in my life that I love (music, food, whatever, doesn’t matter), and didn’t come to love them yourself, there’s nothing I can do. I can’t copy my love for those things and give it to you, obviously. Again, I take you at your word. You did the leg-work, yet didn’t come to what I did. You’re not a guy who hasn’t been exposed to this religious stuff (sounds like you did the homework), therefore, never had the opportunity to see if you could discover some dormant faith.

Good to hear. There honestly was no snark in my post. Just an honest reminder that like others you just might never find faith.

If you intend to keep praying and attending services then I certainly wish you success in your continuing search.

204

[quote]Sloth wrote:

It’s sort of like loving what I love. If you’ve explored the things in my life that I love (music, food, whatever, doesn’t matter), and didn’t come to love them yourself, there’s nothing I can do. I can’t copy my love for those things and give it to you, obviously. Again, I take you at your word. You did the leg-work, yet didn’t come to what I did. You’re not a guy who hasn’t been exposed to this religious stuff (sounds like you did the homework), therefore, never had the opportunity to see if you could discover some dormant faith.

[/quote]

But you aren’t threatening eternal suffering for not liking your music or food.

205

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
My position on religion has somewhat softened as I’ve come to oppose immigration. Religion commands people to procreate, albeit from a fictitious authority.

I’m also weary with Dawkins and the liberal-skeptic-atheist sphere with their ultra pro-feminist anti-male stances.
[/quote]

The fertility rate of the US and the EU isn’t the fault of the immigrant and their culture.
[/quote]

And the moon is made of green cheese, Just because you have six wives and 16 children doesn’t mean you have a cultural or over fertility rate. Regardless, after the Lord made his circumcision covenant with Abraham he promised Ishmael a huge number of descendants…only he added this curse: ‘your hand will be drawn against everyone and everyone’s hand will be drawn against you!’ That doesn’t sound like arabs does it? Fortunately he promised the house of Jacob/Israel that he would ‘bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you, and through you all the nations of the earth will be blessed.’[/quote]

I don’t follow.
[/quote]

Maybe I misunderstood you. For example after the Hutus massacred hundreds of thousands of Tutsis, they then fled to the Congo to avoid retaliation from the survivors. So want do the UN do? They watch the massacre then when it’s over they come in to build refugee camps for the genocidal Hutus. And what do the UN do in the ME? They fund ‘educational’ programs that they know for a fact are fronts for terrorist training camps led by known terrorist leaders. And what does the US do? It funds, trains and arms Fatah in an attempt to weaken the Hamas, only Fatah has now allied itself with a group even more extreme than Hamas(Palestinian Islamic Jihad).

I know the US has a long history of isolationism but there have been countless times when they sit by and watch hundreds of thousands of people murdered often with US supplied weapons. Maybe I misunderstood your point. But I honestly believe a two year old could form a better foreign policy than the US. In Afghanistan they hand over huge bundles of money to batshit sheiks in order to ‘keep the peace’ and ‘man check points’. And what good is force multiplication when you’re training the locals to kill you? And funding ‘pro Western’ Sunni groups in Syria? Are you fucking kidding me? What’s a ‘pro-Western’ Sunni anyhow. The people who formulated these plans must be out of their fucking minds. These ‘pro Western’ Sunnis will be turning Beirut into a war zone before too long, and with Russian training and weapons.

206

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

It’s sort of like loving what I love. If you’ve explored the things in my life that I love (music, food, whatever, doesn’t matter), and didn’t come to love them yourself, there’s nothing I can do. I can’t copy my love for those things and give it to you, obviously. Again, I take you at your word. You did the leg-work, yet didn’t come to what I did. You’re not a guy who hasn’t been exposed to this religious stuff (sounds like you did the homework), therefore, never had the opportunity to see if you could discover some dormant faith.

[/quote]

But you aren’t threatening eternal suffering for not liking your music or food.
[/quote]

I’m ‘threatened’ with non-existence from atheists, and hell (or some equivalent) from other faiths. Well, not really. Doesn’t trouble me in the slightest, because I don’t believe in them.

207

[quote]AceRock wrote:
I guess I should have seen it coming, it’s fairly typical. It’s the same thing I get from everyone. “You must have faith.” How? You may as well tell me to fly to the moon.

I know it wasn’t personal, but I’m sincerely shocked you don’t understand my frustration with that kind of circular reasoning.

I’m not mad at you at all. I asked an honest question, and you gave your honest answer. I can’t fault you for that, but I truly expected (of you, especially) a somewhat more reasonable (ironic, I know) answer.

Thanks for the attempt. I’ll keep waiting for anyone to field a different kind of response.[/quote]

I’m the exact same. I was raised Methodist and would love nothing more than to have faith because having faith is better than not having faith. It just is. I would MUCH rather be religious, believe in a higher power and plan, and imagine that the dead people I love so much are in heaven waiting on me to come see them.

That when my best friends mom died when she was 40 that it was because God needed an angel right then. That my grandparents are in the most perfect existence imaginable. That a woman raped and murdered and treated awfully in this life is now in eternal bliss.

This is FAR FAR FAR better than what I actually believe. My brain will not allow me to do these things. I’ve TRIED many times. I cannot force myself to believe in a higher power unless I walk around all day pretending. I cannot read a story like beans and think anything other than pure chance. Or that if God can do everything then why allow so much shit here to occur.

My brain won’t let me have faith. I would prefer it to happen. I cannot make it happen no matter how hard I try. At least not with the Christian faiths I have been “trained” in for the first 18 years of my life. Maybe I would have more luck attempting Buddhism or Islam or Mormonism, but I doubt it.

If I burn in hell for all eternity because of this then I guess I burn in hell. I just honestly feel like if God exists then he made my brain work in a way that can’t find rational reasons for believing in him. If he (can’t God be a she ;)) feels I need to be tortured in a lake of fire I guess I’ll be tortured in a lake of fire. Right now I absolutely have no choice. I would believe if I could. It is far easier to believe than to not believe in my opinion.

208

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]AceRock wrote:
I guess I should have seen it coming, it’s fairly typical. It’s the same thing I get from everyone. “You must have faith.” How? You may as well tell me to fly to the moon.

I know it wasn’t personal, but I’m sincerely shocked you don’t understand my frustration with that kind of circular reasoning.

I’m not mad at you at all. I asked an honest question, and you gave your honest answer. I can’t fault you for that, but I truly expected (of you, especially) a somewhat more reasonable (ironic, I know) answer.

Thanks for the attempt. I’ll keep waiting for anyone to field a different kind of response.[/quote]

I’m the exact same. I was raised Methodist and would love nothing more than to have faith because having faith is better than not having faith. It just is. I would MUCH rather be religious, believe in a higher power and plan, and imagine that the dead people I love so much are in heaven waiting on me to come see them.

That when my best friends mom died when she was 40 that it was because God needed an angel right then. That my grandparents are in the most perfect existence imaginable. That a woman raped and murdered and treated awfully in this life is now in eternal bliss.

This is FAR FAR FAR better than what I actually believe. My brain will not allow me to do these things. I’ve TRIED many times. I cannot force myself to believe in a higher power unless I walk around all day pretending. I cannot read a story like beans and think anything other than pure chance. Or that if God can do everything then why allow so much shit here to occur.

My brain won’t let me have faith. I would prefer it to happen. I cannot make it happen no matter how hard I try. At least not with the Christian faiths I have been “trained” in for the first 18 years of my life. Maybe I would have more luck attempting Buddhism or Islam or Mormonism, but I doubt it.

If I burn in hell for all eternity because of this then I guess I burn in hell. I just honestly feel like if God exists then he made my brain work in a way that can’t find rational reasons for believing in him. If he (can’t God be a she ;)) feels I need to be tortured in a lake of fire I guess I’ll be tortured in a lake of fire. Right now I absolutely have no choice. I would believe if I could. It is far easier to believe than to not believe in my opinion. [/quote]

This is me, even down to being raised a Methodist.

209

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
A long story, and a close call.

My first reaction was to look up and say thank you. And then that story made a lot more sense.

If we aren’t ready to hear them, or our expectations are outlandish, we wont’ hear the answers that are right in front of our face, obvious or not.

I’ve heard that story and it’s funny. (I was told it as a joke)

I’ve had weird stuff happen too. I didn’t look up or thank God. When I say, “Thank God,” it’s because that’s common parlance and expresses my gratitude.

I get it, I see how your experience has shown you something. I’ve simply been shown something different.

210

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]AceRock wrote:
I guess I should have seen it coming, it’s fairly typical. It’s the same thing I get from everyone. “You must have faith.” How? You may as well tell me to fly to the moon.

I know it wasn’t personal, but I’m sincerely shocked you don’t understand my frustration with that kind of circular reasoning.[/quote]

It’s sort of like loving what I love. If you’ve explored the things in my life that I love (music, food, whatever, doesn’t matter), and didn’t come to love them yourself, there’s nothing I can do. I can’t copy my love for those things and give it to you, obviously. Again, I take you at your word. You did the leg-work, yet didn’t come to what I did. You’re not a guy who hasn’t been exposed to this religious stuff (sounds like you did the homework), therefore, never had the opportunity to see if you could discover some dormant faith.

Good to hear. There honestly was no snark in my post. Just an honest reminder that like others you just might never find faith.

If you intend to keep praying and attending services then I certainly wish you success in your continuing search.
[/quote]

That makes a lot more sense, and I greatly appreciate your explanation. I didn’t think it was deliberately rude, at all. Thank you.

Now then…

Why, then, would some not find faith? If there is one true God, whose wish it is for all His children to praise Him and join Him in Heaven, why the roadblocks? Is it a test? Is this a “fake it 'til you make it” situation? That feels dishonest.

“If the Lord is gunna find me, He better start lookin’ today…” -Fun.

211

[quote]doogie wrote:

This is me, even down to being raised a Methodist.[/quote]

I “believed” for a long time simply because I never took the time to even consider or question it. We said prayers at dinner. Prayers right before bed. And I read the Bible cover to cover more than once.

I think we were a pretty typical religious family. We didn’t do anything crazy really. Now that I’m older I realize my parents struggle somewhat with their faith. Most of their children are not big followers of the Methodist faith now most of us losing some of that once we went to higher education. Older brother is a professor, sister is a doctor, other sister runs a hospital and little brother works in pharmaceuticals. Diverse backgrounds, raised the same way, and came to generally the same conclusions once we got out of high school.

I started questioning it late in high school. Then in college I questioned it more and more. I tried to ignore that voice in my head. I tried to ignore things I read counter to what I was taught growing on the internet. As I was presented a bigger body of evidence counter to what I was raised to believe I reached a point where I no longer “bought it.”

I don’t feel above people simply because I quit buying it, but I feel as if sometimes the faithful don’t believe that someone can actually not have faith. I honestly CANNOT do it unless I fake the role like an actor would.

212

[quote]AceRock wrote:

Why, then, would some not find faith?[/quote]

Can’t answer that for them.

I can only say that I have faith in God, the actual existence of good and evil, moral obligations, etc.

213

[quote]H factor wrote:
I think we were a pretty typical religious family. We didn’t do anything crazy really. Now that I’m older I realize my parents struggle somewhat with their faith.[/quote]

Your posts are describing me exactly. This part makes me think of a point. My father raised me from birth in the church. He made it clear that going to church was a priority and made sure I did Sunday school and youth group stuff.

After I turned 18 and left the nest and the church, I noticed that my father also stopped going to church. I realized that he didn’t actually have that faith either, and in fact he never did. He was just trying to raise me as best as he could.

I think on some level he shared your belief that it’s better to have faith than not. It’s a happier picture, and he wanted to give me every chance to have that, but probably accepted that I would eventually come to the same conclusion he did. I respect him a lot.

214

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]doogie wrote:

This is me, even down to being raised a Methodist.[/quote]

I “believed” for a long time simply because I never took the time to even consider or question it. We said prayers at dinner. Prayers right before bed. And I read the Bible cover to cover more than once.

I think we were a pretty typical religious family. We didn’t do anything crazy really. Now that I’m older I realize my parents struggle somewhat with their faith. Most of their children are not big followers of the Methodist faith now most of us losing some of that once we went to higher education. Older brother is a professor, sister is a doctor, other sister runs a hospital and little brother works in pharmaceuticals. Diverse backgrounds, raised the same way, and came to generally the same conclusions once we got out of high school.

I started questioning it late in high school. Then in college I questioned it more and more. I tried to ignore that voice in my head. I tried to ignore things I read counter to what I was taught growing on the internet. As I was presented a bigger body of evidence counter to what I was raised to believe I reached a point where I no longer “bought it.”

I don’t feel above people simply because I quit buying it, but I feel as if sometimes the faithful don’t believe that someone can actually not have faith. I honestly CANNOT do it unless I fake the role like an actor would. [/quote]

I can completely relate to all of this. In high school another kid at a leadership camp gave me a copy of THE AGE OF REASON. That alone didn’t send me down the road to damnation, but it definitely sowed the seeds. My sister somehow still believes, but I don’t think she’s ever actually questioned her faith. I’d never put her in that situation, because in so many ways I’m jealous that she still has it.

In the end, even sitting with my pastor, the only answers to my questions have been a version of “You just have to have faith.” Where can I buy that?

215

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
I think we were a pretty typical religious family. We didn’t do anything crazy really. Now that I’m older I realize my parents struggle somewhat with their faith.[/quote]
Your posts are describing me exactly. This part makes me think of a point. My father raised me from birth in the church. He made it clear that going to church was a priority and made sure I did Sunday school and youth group stuff.

After I turned 18 and left the nest and the church, I noticed that my father also stopped going to church. I realized that he didn’t actually have that faith either, and in fact he never did. He was just trying to raise me as best as he could.

I think on some level he shared your belief that it’s better to have faith than not. It’s a happier picture, and he wanted to give me every chance to have that, but probably accepted that I would eventually come to the same conclusion he did. I respect him a lot.[/quote]

I’m sure you’ve heard of this before, right?

216

[quote]doogie wrote:

In the end, even sitting with my pastor, the only answers to my questions have been a version of “You just have to have faith.” Where can I buy that?[/quote]

This^infinity. (Read: this to the power of infinity :wink:

217

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
I think we were a pretty typical religious family. We didn’t do anything crazy really. Now that I’m older I realize my parents struggle somewhat with their faith.[/quote]
Your posts are describing me exactly. This part makes me think of a point. My father raised me from birth in the church. He made it clear that going to church was a priority and made sure I did Sunday school and youth group stuff.

After I turned 18 and left the nest and the church, I noticed that my father also stopped going to church. I realized that he didn’t actually have that faith either, and in fact he never did. He was just trying to raise me as best as he could.

I think on some level he shared your belief that it’s better to have faith than not. It’s a happier picture, and he wanted to give me every chance to have that, but probably accepted that I would eventually come to the same conclusion he did. I respect him a lot.[/quote]

I’m sure you’ve heard of this before, right?

[/quote]

If all God requires is us to believe in him at the last second then I’ll say a prayer on my deathbed.

Somehow I think if a higher power exists he can tell if someone is just hedging a bet by faking faith right?

218

[quote]H factor wrote:

Somehow I think if a higher power exists he can tell if someone is just hedging a bet by faking faith right? [/quote]

Yep.

219

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
I think we were a pretty typical religious family. We didn’t do anything crazy really. Now that I’m older I realize my parents struggle somewhat with their faith.[/quote]
Your posts are describing me exactly. This part makes me think of a point. My father raised me from birth in the church. He made it clear that going to church was a priority and made sure I did Sunday school and youth group stuff.

After I turned 18 and left the nest and the church, I noticed that my father also stopped going to church. I realized that he didn’t actually have that faith either, and in fact he never did. He was just trying to raise me as best as he could.

I think on some level he shared your belief that it’s better to have faith than not. It’s a happier picture, and he wanted to give me every chance to have that, but probably accepted that I would eventually come to the same conclusion he did. I respect him a lot.[/quote]

I have often considered whether or not I will raise my kids Methodist. I think value exists in exposing a kid to a religion if anything so they somewhat get where things are coming from. It is also better to believe in something magical up there than to not believe.

At the same time considering I don’t consider the stories any different than the tooth fairy (which I’m sure I will tell my kid exists) is there actually a point or am I just doing it because that’s what most of the people in front of me decided to do with their kids.

Neither of my parents are currently highly religious in any way shape of form. My Dad a bit more so than my mom, though in conversations they will often be angered at the hypocrisy of the religious people around them.

220

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

Somehow I think if a higher power exists he can tell if someone is just hedging a bet by faking faith right? [/quote]

Yep.[/quote]

Ironically when I first heard Pascal’s Wager I thought…“exactly! Why would anyone take the risk of hell when you can just believe in God?!”

Freshman philosophy class. My wavering on faith didn’t last much longer as I explored the irrationality of that notion and others.

If this can be fixed in me I have no idea how.