Religious Belief is Human Nature?

[forlife]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

forlife wrote:<<< If you agree with me that we actually know nothing, how do you justify claiming that your god must be real, and refusing to acknowledge that he may not be?

I agree that WE know nothing autonomously, that is, in ourselves, independently. NOTHING. And my hat is off to you for finally admitting as much. Sincerely. I contend, as does the apostle Paul, that all of my knowledge AND all of YOUR knowledge is derived from the most high God. Every last particle. I embrace that with joy and rest utterly confident in EVERYTHING. You deny that with scorn and attempt to inject meaning and substance into your life independently and thereby declare with your own lips that such a thing is not logically possible.

The torturous problem of “the one and the many” for instance, is instantly resolved in the triune God I worship. He is the architect of all and all bears His signature. He is Himself “One and many”, hence the very reality we are inextricably pickled in reflects His nature. I was once blind like you are and denied His glory even while it was shining everywhere right in my face. You both can not and will not see this because you are dead to Him in sin just like I was. To you it is more comforting to simply accept that “nothing” is as good as it gets than to surrender to Him who has ALL the answers.

Why? Because you hate Him. You hate the moral authority you KNOW He has over you. You hate the fact that you KNOW you know NOTHING as the backfire of the serpent’s deception of Eve lurks ever present in your mind. “You don’t need God tellin you what fruit to eat and infringing on your ability to reason objectively and make decisions for yourself” to paraphrase. You hate the fact that you are hopelessly enslaved in sin and death, yet passionately love your sin at the same time and I ain’t talkin primarily about homosexuality. I’m referring to the spiritual and intellectual death I’ve been presently discussing. Homosexuality is simply a symptom of that. That’s why I hardly mention it.

The Greeks knew what I’m telling you now and made various valiant, but ultimately futile attempts to fuse reality into some sensible and manageable whole, culminating (sorta) with Aristotle and his “analogies of meaning, thinking and being”. The whole of philosophical history is one long attempt to this day to escape what you have here put forth. That being “ultimately nobody can prove anything”. They have of necessity failed and will continue to fail until Jesus Christ descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God.

You will likely write this post off as the further blithering of a hopelessly deluded religious fanatic. (maybe not) Fine. Meanwhile my God reigns and in His name I tell you again, repent, cast yourself on His mercy, believe His gospel and live.
[/quote]

I’ve admitted as much all along. As an agnostic, the fundamental guiding principle is an awareness of my own ignorance.

Everything, including your idea of a god who knows everything, is mere speculation rather than fact. Given that, none of us can afford to assume we know the truth, and close our minds to the possibility that we may be wrong.

I’m not sure why you believe I hate the idea of a god. I don’t. To the extent there actually is a god, I actually feel a sense of gratitude, humility, and love. That sense may be of the inherent beauty of the natural universe, or it may be of a supernatural loving being. I really don’t know, but I feel it all the same.

And for the record, I don’t hate you either. I love your passion and eloquence, and your commitment to living according to what you believe is right.

[forlife]

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
I respect your belief that god is necessary for true happiness, but I disagree.[/quote]

What is necessary to achieve true happiness then? Are you sure you have achieved true happiness? and what is the purpose of continuing with life? [/quote]

I can’t speak for others. I only know what has made me the most happy in my own life, and I’m thankful to say that I’m genuinely happy today.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I’m not sure why you believe I hate the idea of a god. >>>[/quote]Oh no no no my friend. You LOVE the idea of A god because you see that as emancipation from the authority of THE God who you hate with every fiber of your being. That’s why I don’t fiddle around with the traditional Thomistic theistic “proofs”. They do little more than establish the POSSIBLE existence of any one of a thousand different potential god’s or some impersonal first cause or prime mover. That is an affront to THE God, who I know and love and who alone is absolute certainty itself. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< And for the record, I don’t hate you either. I love your passion and eloquence, and your commitment to living according to what you believe is right.[/quote]Thank you. I believe it is clear by now that I don’t hate you either. I don’t even dislike you.

I don’t have much time now.

[pat]

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I would go even further, by arguing that curiosity is human nature. We have the desire to understand our world, answer questions, and replace ignorance with knowledge. Why? Because knowledge is power, and people like power.

Religion is one offshoot of man’s need to understand the universe and his place in it. We have speculated, created, asserted, philosophized, and placed faith in a plethora of mystical explanations to satisfy that need.[/quote]WOW, lots more origins required here too =]
[/quote]

You might enjoy a few psychology classes in motivation, cognitive processing, personality, and development. Just because you don’t understand the research in these areas doesn’t mean they have a supernatural origin. [/quote]

Religion is not a need to fill a gap. Religion is communication with God, and man needs to be in communion with Him. God is often imitated, but never replaced.

Considering your intense participation in virtually all the religion threads, I get the sense you have this need somewhere deep down in side…Watch out ego, here comes the id…[/quote]

Humans are curious by nature. What makes you think this isn’t true when it comes to the most important questions in our lives?[/quote]

I agree it’s true. That’s not the same thing as man’s need for God in their lives. You either have God in your life or you try to replace it with something else, science, booze, sex, drugs, etc. ← Not that I am against those things they just don’t replace God.
When you don’t have God, you have a hole in your heart. [/quote]

I respect your belief that god is necessary for true happiness, but I disagree.[/quote]

I didn’t say happiness, I said a need is missing and one doesn’t have it they seek vehemently to replace it with one or many things, nothing satisfies like the real thing.

[pat]

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
If you agree with me that we actually know nothing, how do you justify claiming that your god must be real, and refusing to acknowledge that he may not be?[/quote]

Why are you trying to convince religious people to deny their predisposition? I mean, if there’s one side of human nature we can be sure of, it’s religiosity. The op strongly suggests as much.[/quote]

I support the right of people to believe whatever they want, and would never legislate against him worshiping whatever god he thinks is real.[/quote]

No, no. Why would you WANT him to move away from what is possibly an inherent orientation?[/quote]

I strongly believe in every man and woman’s right to worship in whatever (reasonable) way they wish. That said, we live in participatory societies in which the convictions of some can have drastic and substantive bearing on the lives of others, many of whom do not necessarily share those convictions. The ways in which we participate are informed by our respective world-views.

For this reason, I hope with intense sincerity that religious superstition is uprooted and eradicated from the human consciousness–because I believe that, regardless of the particular religion or denomination in question, it is at heart predicated upon one or another set of fantastical lies. And I do not want falsities guiding the behavior of my fellow man.

I would not legislate such a sentiment, but I can hope for it and use reason and argument to fight for it all I want.[/quote]

How would you propose erraticating religion? Bolsheviks and the Chinese have tried and failed. What do you hope to gain from it? Being pestered from time to time by door to door evangelists seems little reason to remove it from existence.
The study in the original post indicates that it is part of human nature, so how would you get rid of a natural human need? You don’t have to believe in God to know that you will lose against nature.
Getting rid of it won’t make the world better, won’t reduce crime, won’t get you laid, or big, so really other than your personal disdain, what’s the point?

[forlife]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I’m not sure why you believe I hate the idea of a god. >>>[/quote]Oh no no no my friend. You LOVE the idea of A god because you see that as emancipation from the authority of THE God who you hate with every fiber of your being. That’s why I don’t fiddle around with the traditional Thomistic theistic “proofs”. They do little more than establish the POSSIBLE existence of any one of a thousand different potential god’s or some impersonal first cause or prime mover. That is an affront to THE God, who I know and love and who alone is absolute certainty itself. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< And for the record, I don’t hate you either. I love your passion and eloquence, and your commitment to living according to what you believe is right.[/quote]Thank you. I believe it is clear by now that I don’t hate you either. I don’t even dislike you.

I don’t have much time now.
[/quote]

I don’t believe it’s possible to know a god based on faith. It’s a contradictory concept. If we agree that everything is speculative, the only logical conclusion is that everything we believe could very well be wrong. My understanding is that you’re not concerned at all about the possibility of being wrong. You appear to be 100% convinced that your particular god is real, and refuse to acknowledge that you might be mistaken.

I don’t hate your god, because I don’t believe he’s real. As with everything else, I could be mistaken, but that is my honest opinion.

[forlife]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I would go even further, by arguing that curiosity is human nature. We have the desire to understand our world, answer questions, and replace ignorance with knowledge. Why? Because knowledge is power, and people like power.

Religion is one offshoot of man’s need to understand the universe and his place in it. We have speculated, created, asserted, philosophized, and placed faith in a plethora of mystical explanations to satisfy that need.[/quote]WOW, lots more origins required here too =]
[/quote]

You might enjoy a few psychology classes in motivation, cognitive processing, personality, and development. Just because you don’t understand the research in these areas doesn’t mean they have a supernatural origin. [/quote]

Religion is not a need to fill a gap. Religion is communication with God, and man needs to be in communion with Him. God is often imitated, but never replaced.

Considering your intense participation in virtually all the religion threads, I get the sense you have this need somewhere deep down in side…Watch out ego, here comes the id…[/quote]

Humans are curious by nature. What makes you think this isn’t true when it comes to the most important questions in our lives?[/quote]

I agree it’s true. That’s not the same thing as man’s need for God in their lives. You either have God in your life or you try to replace it with something else, science, booze, sex, drugs, etc. ← Not that I am against those things they just don’t replace God.
When you don’t have God, you have a hole in your heart. [/quote]

I respect your belief that god is necessary for true happiness, but I disagree.[/quote]

I didn’t say happiness, I said a need is missing and one doesn’t have it they seek vehemently to replace it with one or many things, nothing satisfies like the real thing.[/quote]

As I see it, that need is the need for meaning and purpose. Some satisfy that need by believing in a god or gods, but others find meaning and purpose in the natural and metaphysical world. I don’t share your view that “true meaning and purpose” is only possible by believing in a supernatural being.

[smh23]

[quote]pat wrote:

How would you propose erraticating religion? Bolsheviks and the Chinese have tried and failed. What do you hope to gain from it? Being pestered from time to time by door to door evangelists seems little reason to remove it from existence.
The study in the original post indicates that it is part of human nature, so how would you get rid of a natural human need? You don’t have to believe in God to know that you will lose against nature.
Getting rid of it won’t make the world better, won’t reduce crime, won’t get you laid, or big, so really other than your personal disdain, what’s the point?[/quote]

Like I said, I would never support any sort of government/legal restriction on religion. And I never said I’m personally going to eradicate it from this planet–just that I hope that it NATURALLY dies away. And I think, at least to a degree, it will: with socio-political borders being steamrolled by global communication, unprecedented amounts of information being exposed to unprecedented numbers of people, and a growing army of young, first-gen educated across the world, I believe that religion will have an uphill battle in the coming century.

Will the world be a better place? What will it do for me? I don’t know. But I do know that I’d rather my world guided by realism than fantasy.

Once again, this is something I HOPE happens. Not something I’m ever going to try to MAKE happen. And if Christians or Muslims or Jews were being persecuted for their beliefs in my country, I would stand beside them.

[TigerTime]

It’s also “natural” to assume the Earth is flat, but with a proper education it’s easy to see that this isn’t true. Humans are the most altricial animals on the planet which gives us the ability to supercede our superstitious tendencies.

[pat]

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

How would you propose erraticating religion? Bolsheviks and the Chinese have tried and failed. What do you hope to gain from it? Being pestered from time to time by door to door evangelists seems little reason to remove it from existence.
The study in the original post indicates that it is part of human nature, so how would you get rid of a natural human need? You don’t have to believe in God to know that you will lose against nature.
Getting rid of it won’t make the world better, won’t reduce crime, won’t get you laid, or big, so really other than your personal disdain, what’s the point?[/quote]

Like I said, I would never support any sort of government/legal restriction on religion. And I never said I’m personally going to eradicate it from this planet–just that I hope that it NATURALLY dies away. And I think, at least to a degree, it will: with socio-political borders being steamrolled by global communication, unprecedented amounts of information being exposed to unprecedented numbers of people, and a growing army of young, first-gen educated across the world, I believe that religion will have an uphill battle in the coming century.

Will the world be a better place? What will it do for me? I don’t know. But I do know that I’d rather my world guided by realism than fantasy.

Once again, this is something I HOPE happens. Not something I’m ever going to try to MAKE happen. And if Christians or Muslims or Jews were being persecuted for their beliefs in my country, I would stand beside them.[/quote]

But that’s the thing, the natural inclination of humans is toward religion. Like everything else, religion’s popularity is cyclical, it comes in and out of favor en masse, but it’s always there and some how manages to grow even in the appearance that it is not. Really genetic engineering is the only way to promote a mass extinction of religious belief. Even if you were to do that, it’d take thousands of years to do…By then we’ll all know who was right and who was wrong.
Basically it is here to stay.

[pat]

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
It’s also “natural” to assume the Earth is flat, but with a proper education it’s easy to see that this isn’t true. Humans are the most altricial animals on the planet which gives us the ability to supercede our superstitious tendencies. [/quote]
Uh, not really, no. You missed the point apparently.

[pat]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

How would you propose erraticating religion? Bolsheviks and the Chinese have tried and failed. What do you hope to gain from it? Being pestered from time to time by door to door evangelists seems little reason to remove it from existence.
The study in the original post indicates that it is part of human nature, so how would you get rid of a natural human need? You don’t have to believe in God to know that you will lose against nature.
Getting rid of it won’t make the world better, won’t reduce crime, won’t get you laid, or big, so really other than your personal disdain, what’s the point?[/quote]

Like I said, I would never support any sort of government/legal restriction on religion. And I never said I’m personally going to eradicate it from this planet–just that I hope that it NATURALLY dies away. And I think, at least to a degree, it will: with socio-political borders being steamrolled by global communication, unprecedented amounts of information being exposed to unprecedented numbers of people, and a growing army of young, first-gen educated across the world, I believe that religion will have an uphill battle in the coming century.

Will the world be a better place? What will it do for me? I don’t know. But I do know that I’d rather my world guided by realism than fantasy.

Once again, this is something I HOPE happens. Not something I’m ever going to try to MAKE happen. And if Christians or Muslims or Jews were being persecuted for their beliefs in my country, I would stand beside them.[/quote]

But that’s the thing, the natural inclination of humans is toward religion. Like everything else, religion’s popularity is cyclical, it comes in and out of favor en masse, but it’s always there and some how manages to grow even in the appearance that it is not. Really genetic engineering is the only way to promote a mass extinction of religious belief. Even if you were to do that, it’d take thousands of years to do…By then we’ll all know who was right and who was wrong.
Basically it is here to stay.[/quote]

As for fantasy… Since nobody here can define what reality actually is and the the fact that the atheistic tendency to believe in ‘something from nothing’ it’s kind of a fuzzy line as to determine who is actually believing false hoods. Like I said, the good news is we all get to find out one day…

[kaaleppi]

[quote]pat wrote:
… the good news is we all get to find out one day…[/quote]

And the bad news is that, no, we don’t, we’ll just become unable to care anymore

[smh23]

[quote]pat wrote:
As for fantasy… Since nobody here can define what reality actually is and the the fact that the atheistic tendency to believe in ‘something from nothing’ it’s kind of a fuzzy line as to determine who is actually believing false hoods. Like I said, the good news is we all get to find out one day…[/quote]

I agree with regard to the notion of ‘something from nothing’–it is just as unfathomable as the notion of a supreme deity, perhaps even more so. But organized religion is not necessarily the ‘correct’ answer to such a conundrum. I take issue with the bullshit specifics of the religions–talking snakes, don’t eat this food on this day, cut the tip of your penis off as part of the Abrahamic covenant (as a side note: how can anyone believe that the most perfect, intelligent, and powerful being is interested in the amount of skin on my penis? This is a serious question), homosexuality is immoral because someone wrote down that it was thousands of years ago, etc.–rather than with the far more general and far less ridiculous notion that there exists an entity outside of physical reality upon whom existence is contingent.

The specifics of the great religions are falsehoods. Unless you believe in the literal accuracy of every line of the OT and NT (hint: no one really does), you must admit that this statement is at least partially correct. Why worship something that is obviously full of shit?

As for the “nobody here can define what reality is”…that is an argument that theists love to throw at atheists. It is also complete bullshit. We all know that certain things happen and certain things don’t. People don’t walk on water. Snakes don’t talk. Boats can’t fit two of every species on Earth in them. Men can’t live inside fish for days on end. To believe that any of these things has ever happened is to exhibit the naivete and critical faculties of a pre-adolescent child. There is no philosophical argument there…it’s just the way the world turns.

[pat]

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
As for fantasy… Since nobody here can define what reality actually is and the the fact that the atheistic tendency to believe in ‘something from nothing’ it’s kind of a fuzzy line as to determine who is actually believing false hoods. Like I said, the good news is we all get to find out one day…[/quote]

I agree with regard to the notion of ‘something from nothing’–it is just as unfathomable as the notion of a supreme deity, perhaps even more so. But organized religion is not necessarily the ‘correct’ answer to such a conundrum. I take issue with the bullshit specifics of the religions–talking snakes, don’t eat this food on this day, cut the tip of your penis off as part of the Abrahamic covenant (as a side note: how can anyone believe that the most perfect, intelligent, and powerful being is interested in the amount of skin on my penis? This is a serious question), homosexuality is immoral because someone wrote down that it was thousands of years ago, etc.–rather than with the far more general and far less ridiculous notion that there exists an entity outside of physical reality upon whom existence is contingent.

The specifics of the great religions are falsehoods. Unless you believe in the literal accuracy of every line of the OT and NT (hint: no one really does), you must admit that this statement is at least partially correct. Why worship something that is obviously full of shit?

As for the “nobody here can define what reality is”…that is an argument that theists love to throw at atheists. It is also complete bullshit. We all know that certain things happen and certain things don’t. People don’t walk on water. Snakes don’t talk. Boats can’t fit two of every species on Earth in them. Men can’t live inside fish for days on end. To believe that any of these things has ever happened is to exhibit the naivete and critical faculties of a pre-adolescent child. There is no philosophical argument there…it’s just the way the world turns.[/quote]

Ok, I’ll bite. What is reality? What is actually real?

And no, most theists are sadly inept at recognizing these things. If they did they would construct far better arguments. I seldom here good arguments from theists, particularly Evangelicals. Not to cut on them, it’s just when challenged they have no answer…

And if you don’t believe in God, then religion makes absolutely no sense.

[smh23]

[quote]pat wrote:

And if you don’t believe in God, then religion makes absolutely no sense. [/quote]

But there is also the possibility–and I am living proof of this–that one may believe in God (i.e. an uncaused, non-contingent creator) or at the very least admit that God COULD exist and that ‘His’ existence is a plausible explanation for the existence of matter, and yet still find organized religion to be absolute bullshit.

I honestly believe that agnosticism is the only logical attitude that one can adopt toward religiosity. Devout atheists are as narrow-minded and laughably credulous as devout Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

As far as the specific religions and their attempts to describe this possible deity, and to further claim that they know ‘His’ will and ‘His’ characteristic attributes and ‘His’ most intimate wishes, and that they know these things based upon ancient myths, well I think you know my attitude toward that.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I don’t believe it’s possible to know a god based on faith. >>>[/quote]It is impossible to escape THE God even without faith. [quote]forlife wrote:It’s a contradictory concept. >>>[/quote]How can there be contradiction where the law of non contradiction is not valid and don’t try n tell me now you think it IS vaild. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< If we agree that everything is speculative, >>>[/quote] It is for you. Not for me. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< the only logical conclusion is that everything we believe could very well be wrong. >>>[/quote]There you go with logical conclusions again after you have just been saying that nothing is certain. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< My understanding is that you’re not concerned at all about the possibility of being wrong. >>>[/quote]You understand correctly because allowing even the possibility of His non existence is to erect an idol in His place. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< You appear to be 100% convinced that your particular god is real, and refuse to acknowledge that you might be mistaken. >>>[/quote] Nonsense man!!! I don’t appear to be anything. I AM more convinced of the God I know and love than I am of my own existence… or yours. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< I don’t hate your god, because I don’t believe he’s real. >>>[/quote] You unbelief IS hatred on the intellectual level and on the spiritual level you KNOW He’s real. One of you is lying. I believe HIM. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< As with everything else, I could be mistaken, >>>[/quote]On this I can’t be. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< but that is my honest opinion.[/quote]I believe you believe that. (on one hand =] )

[forlife]

Tiribulus, it’s not really fair to agree with me that neither of us knows anything, only to later assert that you actually do know your god is real.

Do you, or do you not, believe that you know nothing?

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< I agree that WE know nothing autonomously, that is, in ourselves, independently. NOTHING. >>>[/quote]I have been relieved of that limitation by the power of the resurrection of the only begotten Son of God. I do not reason autonomously, by myself or independently. I willingly and joyously surrender my reason to the God who alone not only possesses true objectivity, being the singular creator n all, but also possesses exceptionless, comprehensive knowledge of absolutely everything, everywhere, past present and future. I have a reason to believe that contradictions cannot be true. Only to me that is defined by what God says and not what I can understand on my own. The most logical shrug of the shoulders there is in my mind and utter babbling idiocy to you. I bet you can guess why I’ll say that is.

[forlife]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< I agree that WE know nothing autonomously, that is, in ourselves, independently. NOTHING. >>>[/quote]I have been relieved of that limitation by the power of the resurrection of the only begotten Son of God. I do not reason autonomously, by myself or independently. I willingly and joyously surrender my reason to the God who alone not only possesses true objectivity, being the singular creator n all, but also possesses exceptionless, comprehensive knowledge of absolutely everything, everywhere, past present and future. I have a reason to believe that contradictions cannot be true. Only to me that is defined by what God says and not what I can understand on my own. The most logical shrug of the shoulders there is in my mind and utter babbling idiocy to you. I bet you can guess why I’ll say that is.
[/quote]

Ok, so what is your definition of faith?

And how do you know you’re not deluding yourself, or being misled?