Religious Belief is Human Nature?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< I agree that WE know nothing autonomously, that is, in ourselves, independently. NOTHING. >>>[/quote]I have been relieved of that limitation by the power of the resurrection of the only begotten Son of God. I do not reason autonomously, by myself or independently. I willingly and joyously surrender my reason to the God who alone not only possesses true objectivity, being the singular creator n all, but also possesses exceptionless, comprehensive knowledge of absolutely everything, everywhere, past present and future. I have a reason to believe that contradictions cannot be true. Only to me that is defined by what God says and not what I can understand on my own. The most logical shrug of the shoulders there is in my mind and utter babbling idiocy to you. I bet you can guess why I’ll say that is.
[/quote]

Ok, so what is your definition of faith?

And how do you know you’re not deluding yourself, or being misled?[/quote]

Having answered that you can’t even determine the reliability of what you know as reality, how do you answer your question? Do you fret as a lunatic would? Frozen in a frantic questioning of reality and the potentially false observations you’ve made in it? Detached from the world, and paralyzed from acting in it, trying to see his way to some objective and absolute proof? Or, do you stick out your chest, lift your chin high, accept living by faith, and go out into the world as if were for all intents and purposes, reality?

If one can’t even objectively prove the reality to themself, then all action and thought is faith anyways. We accept reality as a truth, though ultimately we can’t even prove it to ourselves. Does anyone here phone their parent, significant other, or children, “just in case they’re real intelligences in a real reality?”

122

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< I agree that WE know nothing autonomously, that is, in ourselves, independently. NOTHING. >>>[/quote]I have been relieved of that limitation by the power of the resurrection of the only begotten Son of God. I do not reason autonomously, by myself or independently. I willingly and joyously surrender my reason to the God who alone not only possesses true objectivity, being the singular creator n all, but also possesses exceptionless, comprehensive knowledge of absolutely everything, everywhere, past present and future. I have a reason to believe that contradictions cannot be true. Only to me that is defined by what God says and not what I can understand on my own. The most logical shrug of the shoulders there is in my mind and utter babbling idiocy to you. I bet you can guess why I’ll say that is.
[/quote]

Ok, so what is your definition of faith?

And how do you know you’re not deluding yourself, or being misled?[/quote]
The 11th Chapter of Hebrews:1-3

[quote] 1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. >>>[/quote]It is not possible for me to prove ANYTHING to you on your terms. You are incapable of certainty by your own declaration and certainty is the only currency I deal in. In case you haven’t noticed, I’ve never really tried. All I can do is testify of what He has has done in my life and why I believe Him. The rest is up to Him

123

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
It’s also “natural” to assume the Earth is flat, but with a proper education it’s easy to see that this isn’t true. Humans are the most altricial animals on the planet which gives us the ability to supercede our superstitious tendencies. [/quote]
Uh, not really, no. You missed the point apparently.[/quote]

Uh, yeah really. You missed my point, it seems. From our perspective the Earth looks flat so it’s natural to assume so. Also, from our perspective, life and the natural universe looks impossible without a central planner. In both cases a greater education brings light to such things as the Earth’s shape or how weather works etc.

It’s only natural to believe in God to the extent that you are uncomfortable with what you don’t understand.

124

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I would go even further, by arguing that curiosity is human nature. We have the desire to understand our world, answer questions, and replace ignorance with knowledge. Why? Because knowledge is power, and people like power.

Religion is one offshoot of man’s need to understand the universe and his place in it. We have speculated, created, asserted, philosophized, and placed faith in a plethora of mystical explanations to satisfy that need.[/quote]WOW, lots more origins required here too =]
[/quote]

You might enjoy a few psychology classes in motivation, cognitive processing, personality, and development. Just because you don’t understand the research in these areas doesn’t mean they have a supernatural origin. [/quote]

Religion is not a need to fill a gap. Religion is communication with God, and man needs to be in communion with Him. God is often imitated, but never replaced.

Considering your intense participation in virtually all the religion threads, I get the sense you have this need somewhere deep down in side…Watch out ego, here comes the id…[/quote]

Humans are curious by nature. What makes you think this isn’t true when it comes to the most important questions in our lives?[/quote]

I agree it’s true. That’s not the same thing as man’s need for God in their lives. You either have God in your life or you try to replace it with something else, science, booze, sex, drugs, etc. ← Not that I am against those things they just don’t replace God.
When you don’t have God, you have a hole in your heart. [/quote]

I respect your belief that god is necessary for true happiness, but I disagree.[/quote]

I didn’t say happiness, I said a need is missing and one doesn’t have it they seek vehemently to replace it with one or many things, nothing satisfies like the real thing.[/quote]

As I see it, that need is the need for meaning and purpose. Some satisfy that need by believing in a god or gods, but others find meaning and purpose in the natural and metaphysical world. I don’t share your view that “true meaning and purpose” is only possible by believing in a supernatural being.[/quote]

I didn’t say meaning and purpose. I am religious and am not aware of my ‘meaning and purpose’. I am sure I have one, but I don’t know what it is. I said something. If a puzzle is missing a piece, you can make out what it is, but it’s still missing a piece.

125

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
It’s also “natural” to assume the Earth is flat, but with a proper education it’s easy to see that this isn’t true. Humans are the most altricial animals on the planet which gives us the ability to supercede our superstitious tendencies. [/quote]
Uh, not really, no. You missed the point apparently.[/quote]

Uh, yeah really. You missed my point, it seems. From our perspective the Earth looks flat so it’s natural to assume so. Also, from our perspective, life and the natural universe looks impossible without a central planner. In both cases a greater education brings light to such things as the Earth’s shape or how weather works etc.

It’s only natural to believe in God to the extent that you are uncomfortable with what you don’t understand. [/quote]

That’s not the point at all. That’s like saying ‘yuck!’ to broccoli is human nature, and it is. But this is referring to intrinsic human behavior, not a lack of education. You did not read the article or you would not have posted this.

126

Wow! What a great discussion! Just joined today. At least it is intellectual and respectful. Here is something that you all might find interesting. It speaks to question, “Why does 80% of the world believe in a god?” It talks about memes, a term coined by Richard Dawkins in his book “The Selfish Gene.”

Life-forms can transmit information both vertically (from parent to child, via replication of genes) and horizontally (through viruses and other means). Malcolm Gladwell wrote, “A meme is an idea that behaves like a virus–that moves through a population, taking hold in each person it infects.” Memes can replicate vertically or horizontally within a single biological generation. They may also lie dormant for long periods of time. Memes spread by the behaviors that they generate in their hosts. Imitation counts as an important characteristic in the propagation of memes. Imitation often involves the copying of an observed behaviour of another individual, but memes may transmit from one individual to another through a copy recorded in an inanimate source, such as a book or a musical score. Researchers have observed memetic copying in just a few species on Earth, including hominids, dolphins and birds (that learn how to sing by imitating their parents or neighbors).[13]

Some commentators have likened the transmission of memes to the spread of contagions.[14] Social contagions such as fads, hysteria, copycat crime, and copycat suicide exemplify memes seen as the contagious imitation of ideas. Observers distinguish the contagious imitation of memes from instinctively contagious phenomena such as yawning and laughing, which they consider innate (rather than socially learned) behaviors.[13]

127

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< I agree that WE know nothing autonomously, that is, in ourselves, independently. NOTHING. >>>[/quote]I have been relieved of that limitation by the power of the resurrection of the only begotten Son of God. I do not reason autonomously, by myself or independently. I willingly and joyously surrender my reason to the God who alone not only possesses true objectivity, being the singular creator n all, but also possesses exceptionless, comprehensive knowledge of absolutely everything, everywhere, past present and future. I have a reason to believe that contradictions cannot be true. Only to me that is defined by what God says and not what I can understand on my own. The most logical shrug of the shoulders there is in my mind and utter babbling idiocy to you. I bet you can guess why I’ll say that is.
[/quote]

Ok, so what is your definition of faith?

And how do you know you’re not deluding yourself, or being misled?[/quote]

Having answered that you can’t even determine the reliability of what you know as reality, how do you answer your question? Do you fret as a lunatic would? Frozen in a frantic questioning of reality and the potentially false observations you’ve made in it? Detached from the world, and paralyzed from acting in it, trying to see his way to some objective and absolute proof? Or, do you stick out your chest, lift your chin high, accept living by faith, and go out into the world as if were for all intents and purposes, reality?

If one can’t even objectively prove the reality to themself, then all action and thought is faith anyways. We accept reality as a truth, though ultimately we can’t even prove it to ourselves. Does anyone here phone their parent, significant other, or children, “just in case they’re real intelligences in a real reality?”[/quote]

I make as few assumptions as possible, while being aware of those assumptions. I recognize my ignorance, rather than insisting I know a particular theory must be true.

128

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< I agree that WE know nothing autonomously, that is, in ourselves, independently. NOTHING. >>>[/quote]I have been relieved of that limitation by the power of the resurrection of the only begotten Son of God. I do not reason autonomously, by myself or independently. I willingly and joyously surrender my reason to the God who alone not only possesses true objectivity, being the singular creator n all, but also possesses exceptionless, comprehensive knowledge of absolutely everything, everywhere, past present and future. I have a reason to believe that contradictions cannot be true. Only to me that is defined by what God says and not what I can understand on my own. The most logical shrug of the shoulders there is in my mind and utter babbling idiocy to you. I bet you can guess why I’ll say that is.
[/quote]

Ok, so what is your definition of faith?

And how do you know you’re not deluding yourself, or being misled?[/quote]
The 11th Chapter of Hebrews:1-3

[quote] 1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. >>>[/quote]It is not possible for me to prove ANYTHING to you on your terms. You are incapable of certainty by your own declaration and certainty is the only currency I deal in. In case you haven’t noticed, I’ve never really tried. All I can do is testify of what He has has done in my life and why I believe Him. The rest is up to Him
[/quote]

It sounds like you don’t believe faith is knowledge then. Given that you don’t actually know your beliefs are true, are you well served by refusing to admit they may not be true?

I’m still curious how you know you aren’t being misled or deceived. What if you’re simply misunderstanding, or what if Satan is misguiding you? How would you know otherwise?

129

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
Wow! What a great discussion! Just joined today. At least it is intellectual and respectful. Here is something that you all might find interesting. It speaks to question, “Why does 80% of the world believe in a god?” It talks about memes, a term coined by Richard Dawkins in his book “The Selfish Gene.”

Life-forms can transmit information both vertically (from parent to child, via replication of genes) and horizontally (through viruses and other means). Malcolm Gladwell wrote, “A meme is an idea that behaves like a virus–that moves through a population, taking hold in each person it infects.” Memes can replicate vertically or horizontally within a single biological generation. They may also lie dormant for long periods of time. Memes spread by the behaviors that they generate in their hosts. Imitation counts as an important characteristic in the propagation of memes. Imitation often involves the copying of an observed behaviour of another individual, but memes may transmit from one individual to another through a copy recorded in an inanimate source, such as a book or a musical score. Researchers have observed memetic copying in just a few species on Earth, including hominids, dolphins and birds (that learn how to sing by imitating their parents or neighbors).[13]

Some commentators have likened the transmission of memes to the spread of contagions.[14] Social contagions such as fads, hysteria, copycat crime, and copycat suicide exemplify memes seen as the contagious imitation of ideas. Observers distinguish the contagious imitation of memes from instinctively contagious phenomena such as yawning and laughing, which they consider innate (rather than socially learned) behaviors.[13]

[/quote]
So how would you relate this to the conversation at hand? And welcome aboard.

130

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
Wow! What a great discussion! Just joined today. At least it is intellectual and respectful. Here is something that you all might find interesting. It speaks to question, “Why does 80% of the world believe in a god?” It talks about memes, a term coined by Richard Dawkins in his book “The Selfish Gene.”

Life-forms can transmit information both vertically (from parent to child, via replication of genes) and horizontally (through viruses and other means). Malcolm Gladwell wrote, “A meme is an idea that behaves like a virus–that moves through a population, taking hold in each person it infects.” Memes can replicate vertically or horizontally within a single biological generation. They may also lie dormant for long periods of time. Memes spread by the behaviors that they generate in their hosts. Imitation counts as an important characteristic in the propagation of memes. Imitation often involves the copying of an observed behaviour of another individual, but memes may transmit from one individual to another through a copy recorded in an inanimate source, such as a book or a musical score. Researchers have observed memetic copying in just a few species on Earth, including hominids, dolphins and birds (that learn how to sing by imitating their parents or neighbors).[13]

Some commentators have likened the transmission of memes to the spread of contagions.[14] Social contagions such as fads, hysteria, copycat crime, and copycat suicide exemplify memes seen as the contagious imitation of ideas. Observers distinguish the contagious imitation of memes from instinctively contagious phenomena such as yawning and laughing, which they consider innate (rather than socially learned) behaviors.[13]

[/quote]
So how would you relate this to the conversation at hand? And welcome aboard.[/quote]

Dude, did you read your own article???

“Famed secularist Richard “Dawkins would accept our findings and say we’ve got to grow out of it,” Trigg argued.”

Rather than explain Dawkins to you, I thought you would take the time to read a little bit of his ideas.

In short, he says that since a child will learn 50% of all he will EVER know by age 12, it is safe to say that children are human sponges when it comes to listening to what their parents tell them. This is essential from an evolutionary perspective b/c most of that knowledge is VERY useful. Like “don’t jump in the fire or stay away from the cliff.”

Unfortunately, one of the things that parents say is that there is an invisible man in the clouds that created everything and knows all that you do.

Do I have to go on, or do you get the point? The book is FANTASTIC, btw. Hope you get a chance to research his work.

131

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< I agree that WE know nothing autonomously, that is, in ourselves, independently. NOTHING. >>>[/quote]I have been relieved of that limitation by the power of the resurrection of the only begotten Son of God. I do not reason autonomously, by myself or independently. I willingly and joyously surrender my reason to the God who alone not only possesses true objectivity, being the singular creator n all, but also possesses exceptionless, comprehensive knowledge of absolutely everything, everywhere, past present and future. I have a reason to believe that contradictions cannot be true. Only to me that is defined by what God says and not what I can understand on my own. The most logical shrug of the shoulders there is in my mind and utter babbling idiocy to you. I bet you can guess why I’ll say that is.
[/quote]

Ok, so what is your definition of faith?

And how do you know you’re not deluding yourself, or being misled?[/quote]
The 11th Chapter of Hebrews:1-3

[quote] 1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. >>>[/quote]It is not possible for me to prove ANYTHING to you on your terms. You are incapable of certainty by your own declaration and certainty is the only currency I deal in. In case you haven’t noticed, I’ve never really tried. All I can do is testify of what He has has done in my life and why I believe Him. The rest is up to Him
[/quote]

It sounds like you don’t believe faith is knowledge then. Given that you don’t actually know your beliefs are true, are you well served by refusing to admit they may not be true?

I’m still curious how you know you aren’t being misled or deceived. What if you’re simply misunderstanding, or what if Satan is misguiding you? How would you know otherwise?[/quote]I don’t believe one scintilla of genuine knowledge is possible at all EXCEPT by faith in the one true and living God which is also the answer to the rest of your questions. You will not accept that. No time now again.

132

But Tiribulus, you’re still not answering my question. You just asserted that you can have knowledge through faith, but you also agreed that faith is not knowledge. If faith is not knowledge, how can faith be knowledge?

And again, how do you know beyond doubt that you’re not mistaken or misled?

133

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 1:7

Faith and knowledge are aspects of one another. They are neither identical nor independent of one another.

Once again, the faith I live in and by is not susceptible to your language. There is no free trial. It is exercised unto new life in the resurrection of Christ or wholly foreign. I cannot “prove” ANYTHING to you and have never pretended I could. I can point out that what you call “proof” arises out of an inescapable dead end mindset wherein nothing is certain. You’ve said so yourself, so why would I waste my time establishing certainty with someone who doesn’t believe it’s possible? I not only believe certainty is possible, but am also incurably persuaded that IT IS COMMANDED by the very absolute God who is it’s source.

It’s God who tells me who and what the devil is. It’s God who tells me who and what He is. It’s God who tells me who and what I AM. It’s God who tells me who and what you are. It’s God who tells me what EVERYTHING is. I know that by the indwelling living Word in my heart testifying to the written Word in my bible. You cannot know that until you repent of your rebellion, seek His mercy and believe His Son is the alone remedy for your wretched sin and death. It is not an intellectual proposition

134

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
It’s also “natural” to assume the Earth is flat, but with a proper education it’s easy to see that this isn’t true. Humans are the most altricial animals on the planet which gives us the ability to supercede our superstitious tendencies. [/quote]
Uh, not really, no. You missed the point apparently.[/quote]

Uh, yeah really. You missed my point, it seems. From our perspective the Earth looks flat so it’s natural to assume so. Also, from our perspective, life and the natural universe looks impossible without a central planner. In both cases a greater education brings light to such things as the Earth’s shape or how weather works etc.

It’s only natural to believe in God to the extent that you are uncomfortable with what you don’t understand. [/quote]

That’s not the point at all. That’s like saying ‘yuck!’ to broccoli is human nature, and it is. But this is referring to intrinsic human behavior, not a lack of education. You did not read the article or you would not have posted this.

[/quote]

Wrong. Coming to a specious conclusion about ones environment is not analogous to ones personal dislike of broccoli. You can’t educate yourself into having different taste buds, but it’s hardly impossible to learn how weather works or what the earth is shaped like.

For example, babies are born with specific tastes (even though they will probably change over time as their senses develop), but no baby is born assuming some sort of providence is responsible for everything. This idea was invented by men in order to establish a sense of security for themselves.

I am aware, however, that there are those with a specific gene which makes them more likely to believe in God than others, but again we are the most altricial animals in existence (that we know of) and therefore are able to supersede such flaws via education.

135

I’ve always liked broccoli. Pumpkin on the other hand? Tastes like ass.

136

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I don’t believe one scintilla of genuine knowledge is possible at all EXCEPT by faith in the one true and living God which is also the answer to the rest of your questions.
[/quote]

What a tragic way to waste your one single shot at existence. I feel nothing but pity for those who have given their lives away to fantasy, hoping for some childish eternal playtime afterlife that will never come.

137

If there is God, then it would seem reasonable that God would instill religious belief … the desire for the ultimate. Belief in the greatest thing ever.

If there is not a God, well, people are unreasonable by nature since the vast majority are religious. Atheists be frustrated, religiosity is somehow ingrained in people’s mind and they can’t seem to get rid of it no matter how evolved and advanced society becomes.

138

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I don’t believe one scintilla of genuine knowledge is possible at all EXCEPT by faith in the one true and living God which is also the answer to the rest of your questions.
[/quote]

What a tragic way to waste your one single shot at existence. I feel nothing but pity for those who have given their lives away to fantasy, hoping for some childish eternal playtime afterlife that will never come.

[/quote]

How can you feel pity for those who find their greatest joy as religious people? You certainly can’t determine Tiribulus would be any better off if he where to lost his faith. The best thing about this study, and this thread, have been the replies. Do we keep forgetting what the study strongly supports?

Tiny portion of the population have to live as homosexuals to live happily. This is their “nature.” Huge study illustring religion as widespread nature of humanity…suddenly, the story changes. Hmmm. Don’t pity us, we’re the standard, the most accurate representation of humanity. Don’t pity us for being what our nature, our orientation, our predisposition demands. That’s now religiphobia.

139

[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< That’s now religiphobia. [/quote]People jist kill me LOL!!! How does he know he only gets one shot? How does he know ANYTHING? Elder forlife and I have been lately discussing that very thing.

140

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 1:7

Faith and knowledge are aspects of one another. They are neither identical nor independent of one another.

Once again, the faith I live in and by is not susceptible to your language. There is no free trial. It is exercised unto new life in the resurrection of Christ or wholly foreign. I cannot “prove” ANYTHING to you and have never pretended I could. I can point out that what you call “proof” arises out of an inescapable dead end mindset wherein nothing is certain. You’ve said so yourself, so why would I waste my time establishing certainty with someone who doesn’t believe it’s possible? I not only believe certainty is possible, but am also incurably persuaded that IT IS COMMANDED by the very absolute God who is it’s source.

It’s God who tells me who and what the devil is. It’s God who tells me who and what I AM. It’s God who tells me who and what you are. It’s God who tells me what EVERYTHING is. I know that by the indwelling living Word in my heart testifying to the written Word in my bible. You cannot know that until you repent of your rebellion, seek His mercy and believe His Son is the alone remedy for your wretched sin and death. It is not an intellectual proposition

[/quote]

My challenge to you, then, is that there are many many religions in the world that claim to “know the truth” in one manner or another. These religions are also mutually exclusive. How can you know that yours is the right one? You can’t.

Knowledge IS mutually exclusive of faith because it REQUIRES reason whereas belief does not. This is true, at least as far as any standard definition of knowledge is concerned. Any pretense of knowing through faith is at best misguided. I’m not saying there is no value in faith, but as far as knowledge is concerned, observable reality is the only place it can be gained.

I understand your argument, but I wholeheartedly reject it. I have seen too much to not call bullshit on anyone who even implies to know some grand truth through faith.

As a last note, if we cannot take what we can observe as being “reality” then we might as well throw everything we “know” including religion in the garbage. If reality is not real, then there is no reason that any notion of a god is also not real.