Religion: Just a Form of Brain Washing?

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
orion wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

Yes, you’re right. The definition is entirely apt: secularists are often brainwashed. It’s a pity, really.

It is more like brain building. Religious indoctrination usually starts at an age where children are genetically programmed to believe everything their parents tell them. Linked with feelings of love and fear towards their parents religious ideas become part of the brain, and not in those regions you can easily change later on by learning new things.

Children are brainwashed in all sorts of ways, nowadays in secular “religions.” Ever talk to a child about global warming and the environment? It’s pretty revealing.

Of course, brainwashing is not the same thing as actually teaching a child, is it?

One can teach a child about one’s religion as much as one can actually teach a child about the environment. Or, of course, you can brainwash them about either, or both.

By far and away, most of the people I know who are extremely intellectual, open minded, loving, tolerant, free, cultivated, and historically-aware, most of these people are invariably religious.

Conversely, most of the people I know who exemplify the opposite characteristics, often turn out to be secularists and - it just so happens - are often virulently anti-religious as well.

All-too-often, secularists are (perhaps unwittingly) captured by all sorts of ideologies & facile PC posturing that, for all intents & purposes, turn out to be precisely analogous to the pernicious attributes they cast upon religions.

[minor edits]
[/quote]

good post

[quote]Sloth wrote:

It’s pretty easy to rail against a faceless, nondescript entity.

Well, that’s all this thread is. “The Religious” aren’t exactly a monolithic group, all sharing the same beliefs and outlook. But, it hasn’t stopped anyone here so far. And, it’s no surprise “secularists” would end up getting the same attention turned back on them.[/quote]

Fair enough.

In the interest of being specific and getting back to what I think the OP was looking for, I’ll say that raising your kids to be young earth creationists

(Young Earth creationism - Wikipedia) is brain washing them.

Well I am late to this thread…

I don’t care what people believe as long as they don’t shove it down my throat. The problem is that since most people believe they are right in what they believe, they often minister to that belief, atheists included.

As far as atheists are concerned, I find they have entitlement issues. That they are owed the truth with out seeking. That if something is not obvious or measurable, it cannot be true.

That’s my $.02, but I might have over paid.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Sifu wrote:
lixy wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Karma ftw.

As far as I can tell, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism and Buddhism are widely considered religions.

And personally, I don’t see any difference between the concept of karma and divine retribution as described in the monotheistic religions.

There is a difference between karma and devine retribution. Devine retribution requires a devinity to inflict the retribution. If the appropriate devinity doesn’t exist or doesn’t care the retribution will never happen. So devine retribution may not be real.

Karma on the other hand does not require devine intervention. Karma is based upon the reality that what you put out into this world can come back to you. If you put evil out, evil can come back. If you put good out, good can come back.

Through what system or mechanism does Karma function? It is not a “reality” based on current science. So on what basis do you know this to be true or be “reality”?

It is a case and effect relationship where our actions affect the environment around us. The concept of karma was created at a time where the majority of people lived their entire lives in area of about a 15 miles radius. Haven’t you ever heard of the saying “don’t shit on your own doorstep”? [/quote]

Yes, but I don’t see Karma as anything different than religion. It is an attempt to explain the patterns in nature and in life that have no currently explainable scientific explanation.

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As a Christian, I’m well aware of this. I don’t believe I’m Christ himself, after all. I’ve sinned, do sin, and will sin. So, the fact that we too are sinners, aint exactly news.

True words these.[/quote]

OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

Surely the reason you believe is so that you have guidelines on how you should live your lives.

If not, then you must just believe “Just in case”…Is that not being hypocritical???

Or am i being to simplistic?

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As a Christian, I’m well aware of this. I don’t believe I’m Christ himself, after all. I’ve sinned, do sin, and will sin. So, the fact that we too are sinners, aint exactly news.

True words these.

OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

[quote]

Everybody makes mistakes, just because you don’t follow the rules to a “t” doesn’t mean your not trying.

[quote]orion wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
storey420 wrote:
brainwashing

Main Entry: brain·wash·ing
Pronunciation: \�?br�?n-�?wo�?-shi�?, -�?wä-\
Function: noun
Etymology: translation of Chinese (Beijing) x�?n�?o
Date: 1950
1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas
2 : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

#1 depends on your family and upbringing so that is a 50/50 but definitely #2

Yes, you’re right. The definition is entirely apt: secularists are often brainwashed. It’s a pity, really.

It is more like brain building. Religious indoctrination usually starts at an age where children are genetically programmed to believe everything their parents tell them. Linked with feelings of love and fear towards their parents religious ideas become part of the brain, and not in those regions you can easily change later on by learning new things.

[/quote]

“Brain building” to the beliefs and outlooks of the people in their environment…Plant the seed and watch it grow into a tree that then drops its own seeds, copies of itself all over the place…

There are many different trees and they keep the world alive…but without the wind or other elements of nature it will just seed around itself and go nowhere…it will never spread itself around to see if it can make it in other environments…its young dies under the shadow of its bearers limited growth…

Dam…does that even make sense???

there are worse forms of brainwashing than religion

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As a Christian, I’m well aware of this. I don’t believe I’m Christ himself, after all. I’ve sinned, do sin, and will sin. So, the fact that we too are sinners, aint exactly news.

True words these.

OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

Surely the reason you believe is so that you have guidelines on how you should live your lives.

If not, then you must just believe “Just in case”…Is that not being hypocritical???

Or am i being to simplistic?[/quote]

How am I being a hyocrite if I sin, and realize I do? Knowing that we are sinners is central to being a Christian. Praying for forgiveness privately, and/or Confession should inform anyone that we believe we too are sinners. I’ve never met a Christian whose prayers don’t include those asking for forgiveness of sins. Now, if I told the public that Christians are incapable of sinning, then maybe I’d be a hypocrite. Because in my head, it’s not what I really believe.

I don’t understand the “Just in case” comment and it’s inclusion here. “Just in case” would be fitting if I didn’t really believe it, but what the heck, I’ll go to church on Sunday as an insurance policy. That’s not me. That’s not my faith. And, I don’t know why you’d conclude such a thing about me, a person you’ve never met, and whose inner thoughts you can never experience. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not really offended. Just wondering.

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

[/quote]

The other day I wanted to get out of bed early enough to get a full workout in before work. I knew after work I would’ve had too many other things going on. I like working out, I believe in it’s benefits, and I truly believe it’s essential to stay discipled enough to carry out my planned training days. Otherwise, I might start falling into a workout skipping rut. If you know what I mean.

However, in the morning I ended up just eating breakfast, watching the news, and farting around on the internet until I left for work. I never did workout that day, and I didn’t make up for it the next day. I can promise you I didn’t skip working out because I don’t believe in it’s benefits. It wasn’t about not wanting to follow “the rules” of strength and physique improvent. It’s just that, at that time, my discipline failed. But, then I did make sure get to back on schedule.

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As a Christian, I’m well aware of this. I don’t believe I’m Christ himself, after all. I’ve sinned, do sin, and will sin. So, the fact that we too are sinners, aint exactly news.

True words these.

OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

Surely the reason you believe is so that you have guidelines on how you should live your lives.

If not, then you must just believe “Just in case”…Is that not being hypocritical???

Or am i being to simplistic?[/quote]

Sounds like you lack understanding completely.
You don’t need religion to have rules or guidelines. Atheists have plenty of rules they live by, lines they won’t cross, etc. Our government is beset by rules, laws and rituals that are followed faithfully without a shred of religious faith being required.

Religious belief is not about having or following rules, those are secondary. Religious belief is about having a relationship spiritual relationship by using tangible means such as prayer, rituals, and guide lines, etc. The true relationship exists out side of that. Every faith journey is an individual one in the end. Rituals, prayer, and action gets you only so far. Religion is helpful in bestowing prior knowledge in order to move forward in your faith journey, not to rediscover what has already been discovered many times over. Religion is a tool rather than an end in itself.
Of course, prior to that you have to make to decisions, one decide that God exists, and two, decide you want to know Him…Then you are ready for a religious journey.

I’m a sinner. I think my brain needs washing.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As a Christian, I’m well aware of this. I don’t believe I’m Christ himself, after all. I’ve sinned, do sin, and will sin. So, the fact that we too are sinners, aint exactly news.

True words these.

OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

Surely the reason you believe is so that you have guidelines on how you should live your lives.

If not, then you must just believe “Just in case”…Is that not being hypocritical???

Or am i being to simplistic?

How am I being a hyocrite if I sin, and realize I do? Knowing that we are sinners is central to being a Christian. Praying for forgiveness privately, and/or Confession should inform anyone that we believe we too are sinners. I’ve never met a Christian whose prayers don’t include those asking for forgiveness of sins. Now, if I told the public that Christians are incapable of sinning, then maybe I’d be a hypocrite. Because in my head, it’s not what I really believe.

I don’t understand the “Just in case” comment and it’s inclusion here. “Just in case” would be fitting if I didn’t really believe it, but what the heck, I’ll go to church on Sunday as an insurance policy. That’s not me. That’s not my faith. And, I don’t know why you’d conclude such a thing about me, a person you’ve never met, and whose inner thoughts you can never experience. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not really offended. Just wondering.[/quote]

By sinning and knowing it is a sin…is that “not practicing what you preach” so to speak…it is like an out clause…" its a sin to do this or that but its ok because if you do do it you will be forgiven"…whats the point??? if you are going to get away with it why bother having “sins” in the first place…

The “Just in case” wasn’t aimed at you personally…it was a generalisation of those that cant make up their minds. to me those that constantly “sin” and dont repent or worry until the going gets tough are the in this group…they are to lazy or to easily led to make up their minds…

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

The other day I wanted to get out of bed early enough to get a full workout in before work. I knew after work I would’ve had too many other things going on. I like working out, I believe in it’s benefits, and I truly believe it’s essential to stay discipled enough to carry out my planned training days. Otherwise, I might start falling into a workout skipping rut. If you know what I mean.

However, in the morning I ended up just eating breakfast, watching the news, and farting around on the internet until I left for work. I never did workout that day, and I didn’t make up for it the next day. I can promise you I didn’t skip working out because I don’t believe in it’s benefits. It wasn’t about not wanting to follow “the rules” of strength and physique improvent. It’s just that, at that time, my discipline failed. But, then I did make sure get to back on schedule.[/quote]

But there are no rules to life…you have to figure it out as you go…Where as with religion they say to be a “True follower” you must live like this blah blah blah…

Going to the gym or not going is completely up to you and how disciplined you are for you own personal gains…

I do see what you mean by what you are saying but i dont think it really fits into the same agenda…there is what you want to do to make your life better, and there is what “they” say you must do to make it worthy.

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
to me those that constantly “sin” and dont repent or worry until the going gets tough are the in this group…they are to lazy or to easily led to make up their minds…[/quote]

That’s a whole 'nother animal right there. Christians are compelled to repent. It’s absolutely central to the whole idea of being a Christian.

Basically, I could sit on the couch and do fuzzy pink 5 .lb dumbell curls solely, day in and day out. In a free society I can tell everyone I’m a strength trainer and a “T-man”. Heck, I could watch the Strongman competetions on TV, learing tons about all the different events, and call myself a “Strongman” trainee. Do you fault the real Strong-men because I’ve never trained a day in my life on the tire flip?

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

The other day I wanted to get out of bed early enough to get a full workout in before work. I knew after work I would’ve had too many other things going on. I like working out, I believe in it’s benefits, and I truly believe it’s essential to stay discipled enough to carry out my planned training days. Otherwise, I might start falling into a workout skipping rut. If you know what I mean.

However, in the morning I ended up just eating breakfast, watching the news, and farting around on the internet until I left for work. I never did workout that day, and I didn’t make up for it the next day. I can promise you I didn’t skip working out because I don’t believe in it’s benefits. It wasn’t about not wanting to follow “the rules” of strength and physique improvent. It’s just that, at that time, my discipline failed. But, then I did make sure get to back on schedule.

But there are no rules to life…you have to figure it out as you go…[/quote]

Figure out what, as you go? There are no rules, only what the armed people dictate.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
to me those that constantly “sin” and dont repent or worry until the going gets tough are the in this group…they are to lazy or to easily led to make up their minds…

That’s a whole 'nother animal right there. Christians are compelled to repent. It’s absolutely central to the whole idea of being a Christian.

Basically, I could sit on the couch and do fuzzy pink 5 .lb dumbell curls solely, day in and day out. In a free society I can tell everyone I’m a strength trainer and a “T-man”. Heck, I could watch the Strongman competetions on TV, learing tons about all the different events, and call myself a “Strongman” trainee. Do you fault the real Strong-men because I’ve never trained a day in my life on the tire flip?[/quote]

But would you be functional?

[quote]pat wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As a Christian, I’m well aware of this. I don’t believe I’m Christ himself, after all. I’ve sinned, do sin, and will sin. So, the fact that we too are sinners, aint exactly news.

True words these.

OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

Surely the reason you believe is so that you have guidelines on how you should live your lives.

If not, then you must just believe “Just in case”…Is that not being hypocritical???

Or am i being to simplistic?

Sounds like you lack understanding completely.
You don’t need religion to have rules or guidelines. Atheists have plenty of rules they live by, lines they won’t cross, etc. Our government is beset by rules, laws and rituals that are followed faithfully without a shred of religious faith being required.

Religious belief is not about having or following rules, those are secondary. Religious belief is about having a relationship spiritual relationship by using tangible means such as prayer, rituals, and guide lines, etc. The true relationship exists out side of that. Every faith journey is an individual one in the end. Rituals, prayer, and action gets you only so far. Religion is helpful in bestowing prior knowledge in order to move forward in your faith journey, not to rediscover what has already been discovered many times over. Religion is a tool rather than an end in itself.
Of course, prior to that you have to make to decisions, one decide that God exists, and two, decide you want to know Him…Then you are ready for a religious journey.[/quote]

I understand completely. I say it how i see it. Everyone sees it differently obviously.

How can you get to know a non-existent entity unless you make it up in your mind to the guidelines of how others of similar thinking also see it.

What I’m saying is that you take it on faith that there is a “God” and therefore you decide to believe in his exsistence. You have never met him or had him speak back to you when you have spoken to him (unless you are delusional. no offense intended)

You have taken all of this on the words and writings of others…There are thousands of things that can be compared to religion, governments and laws of the land included… the difference as i see it with these particular comparisons is that you can choose to not follow, but we all know the outcome of that.

You can choose to not follow the teachings, and in the religious persons mind they will then have to face the consequence of that…but, those consequences are merely presumptuous…

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
to me those that constantly “sin” and dont repent or worry until the going gets tough are the in this group…they are to lazy or to easily led to make up their minds…

That’s a whole 'nother animal right there. Christians are compelled to repent. It’s absolutely central to the whole idea of being a Christian.

Basically, I could sit on the couch and do fuzzy pink 5 .lb dumbell curls solely, day in and day out. In a free society I can tell everyone I’m a strength trainer and a “T-man”. Heck, I could watch the Strongman competetions on TV, learing tons about all the different events, and call myself a “Strongman” trainee. Do you fault the real Strong-men because I’ve never trained a day in my life on the tire flip?[/quote]

No, but that is my point from the beginning. There are those that do and those that claim to do, all in the name of…

My original question was “why does there have to be violent actions taken for the cause of a particular religion.”
They use religion to gain the acceptance of there actions…that doesn’t mean that they are true believers. Or, they may in fact be true believers but understand it in a different way and try to justify it by placing a religious belief tag on it…

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

The other day I wanted to get out of bed early enough to get a full workout in before work. I knew after work I would’ve had too many other things going on. I like working out, I believe in it’s benefits, and I truly believe it’s essential to stay discipled enough to carry out my planned training days. Otherwise, I might start falling into a workout skipping rut. If you know what I mean.

However, in the morning I ended up just eating breakfast, watching the news, and farting around on the internet until I left for work. I never did workout that day, and I didn’t make up for it the next day. I can promise you I didn’t skip working out because I don’t believe in it’s benefits. It wasn’t about not wanting to follow “the rules” of strength and physique improvent. It’s just that, at that time, my discipline failed. But, then I did make sure get to back on schedule.

But there are no rules to life…you have to figure it out as you go…

Figure out what, as you go? There are no rules, only what the armed people dictate.
[/quote]

Figure out what you must do to survive in life…you cant sleep under religion. You cant eat it, buy necessities with it, have sex, play a video game, gamble …the list could go on. take away religion and those things will still exist…

You have to make informed decisions on how you can lead you life by taking every day experiences and deciding how to react to them. Whether you follow you own free form thinking or that that has been “Ordained” as the right way is up to you…