Religion: Just a Form of Brain Washing?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
pat wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As a Christian, I’m well aware of this. I don’t believe I’m Christ himself, after all. I’ve sinned, do sin, and will sin. So, the fact that we too are sinners, aint exactly news.

True words these.

OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

Surely the reason you believe is so that you have guidelines on how you should live your lives.

If not, then you must just believe “Just in case”…Is that not being hypocritical???

Or am i being to simplistic?

Sounds like you lack understanding completely.
You don’t need religion to have rules or guidelines. Atheists have plenty of rules they live by, lines they won’t cross, etc. Our government is beset by rules, laws and rituals that are followed faithfully without a shred of religious faith being required.

Religious belief is not about having or following rules, those are secondary. Religious belief is about having a relationship spiritual relationship by using tangible means such as prayer, rituals, and guide lines, etc. The true relationship exists out side of that. Every faith journey is an individual one in the end. Rituals, prayer, and action gets you only so far. Religion is helpful in bestowing prior knowledge in order to move forward in your faith journey, not to rediscover what has already been discovered many times over. Religion is a tool rather than an end in itself.
Of course, prior to that you have to make to decisions, one decide that God exists, and two, decide you want to know Him…Then you are ready for a religious journey.

I understand completely. I say it how i see it. Everyone sees it differently obviously.

How can you get to know a non-existent entity unless you make it up in your mind to the guidelines of how others of similar thinking also see it.

What I’m saying is that you take it on faith that there is a “God” and therefore you decide to believe in his exsistence. You have never met him or had him speak back to you when you have spoken to him (unless you are delusional. no offense intended)

You have taken all of this on the words and writings of others…There are thousands of things that can be compared to religion, governments and laws of the land included… the difference as i see it with these particular comparisons is that you can choose to not follow, but we all know the outcome of that.

You can choose to not follow the teachings, and in the religious persons mind they will then have to face the consequence of that…but, those consequences are merely presumptuous… [/quote]

Faith is more than the regurgitation of what others have said. You are presuming all faith derived by reading book or commentary on writings. These things are helpful, but you cannot know something that does not exist.

Let’s get down to the core of the matter, you believe there is no God and hence because of that all religion looks pretty much ridiculous, which makes sense. The real question is how you arrived at the conclusion there is no God. How do you “know”? I would assume you know because guessing really isn’t good enough. So let’s take religion totally out of the picture and tell me why you think there is no such thing as God…

182

[quote]pat wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
pat wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As a Christian, I’m well aware of this. I don’t believe I’m Christ himself, after all. I’ve sinned, do sin, and will sin. So, the fact that we too are sinners, aint exactly news.

True words these.

OK…So why do you believe if you dont want to follow “The rules” so to speak?

Surely the reason you believe is so that you have guidelines on how you should live your lives.

If not, then you must just believe “Just in case”…Is that not being hypocritical???

Or am i being to simplistic?

Sounds like you lack understanding completely.
You don’t need religion to have rules or guidelines. Atheists have plenty of rules they live by, lines they won’t cross, etc. Our government is beset by rules, laws and rituals that are followed faithfully without a shred of religious faith being required.

Religious belief is not about having or following rules, those are secondary. Religious belief is about having a relationship spiritual relationship by using tangible means such as prayer, rituals, and guide lines, etc. The true relationship exists out side of that. Every faith journey is an individual one in the end. Rituals, prayer, and action gets you only so far. Religion is helpful in bestowing prior knowledge in order to move forward in your faith journey, not to rediscover what has already been discovered many times over. Religion is a tool rather than an end in itself.
Of course, prior to that you have to make to decisions, one decide that God exists, and two, decide you want to know Him…Then you are ready for a religious journey.

I understand completely. I say it how i see it. Everyone sees it differently obviously.

How can you get to know a non-existent entity unless you make it up in your mind to the guidelines of how others of similar thinking also see it.

What I’m saying is that you take it on faith that there is a “God” and therefore you decide to believe in his exsistence. You have never met him or had him speak back to you when you have spoken to him (unless you are delusional. no offense intended)

You have taken all of this on the words and writings of others…There are thousands of things that can be compared to religion, governments and laws of the land included… the difference as i see it with these particular comparisons is that you can choose to not follow, but we all know the outcome of that.

You can choose to not follow the teachings, and in the religious persons mind they will then have to face the consequence of that…but, those consequences are merely presumptuous…

Faith is more than the regurgitation of what others have said. You are presuming all faith derived by reading book or commentary on writings. These things are helpful, but you cannot know something that does not exist.

Let’s get down to the core of the matter, you believe there is no God and hence because of that all religion looks pretty much ridiculous, which makes sense. The real question is how you arrived at the conclusion there is no God. How do you “know”? I would assume you know because guessing really isn’t good enough. So let’s take religion totally out of the picture and tell me why you think there is no such thing as God…[/quote]

I dont know…but like i said in an earlier answer on this thread, I dont need to know. To me it is a total inconsequential need.
I dont live my life wondering if there is or isnt…it simply makes no difference to me.

I am interested in knowing why people can get so caught up in the belief of something like this. My opinions do tend to bias the non-existence of god, but that is because i see it for what it is. That being in how i live my life. I live with what i can control and guide to suit the way i have decided to live. I dont see the benefit of believing in any type of “common” religion.

183

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:

Figure out what you must do to survive in life…you cant sleep under religion. You cant eat it, buy necessities with it, have sex, play a video game, gamble …the list could go on. take away religion and those things will still exist…[/quote]

All those things turn to dust and rust. I can experience them without religion, true. But, I can also experience them with religion. Take away love, and sex still exists. I’m sure video games would come around at some point or another, even without love existing in the world. But, do I want a loveless, spitefull mindset, simply because I could still have me some angry sex, and then play some video games? Still being able to have sex and playing video games (and the whole underlying point you’re making) just doesn’t do much for me, as an arguement.

[quote]
You have to make informed decisions on how you can lead you life by taking every day experiences and deciding how to react to them. Whether you follow you own free form thinking or that that has been “Ordained” as the right way is up to you… [/quote]

I don’t live life just to survive it. That’s a rather bleak way to live. And “free form” thinking isn’t exactly sacred. What if free form thinking lead me to believe I could make a better profit using slave labor?

184

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:

Figure out what you must do to survive in life…you cant sleep under religion. You cant eat it, buy necessities with it, have sex, play a video game, gamble …the list could go on. take away religion and those things will still exist…

All those things turn to dust and rust. I can experience them without religion, true. But, I can also experience them with religion. Take away love, and sex still exists. I’m sure video games would come around at some point or another, even without love existing in the world. But, do I want a loveless, spitefull mindset, simply because I could still have me some angry sex, and then play some video games? Still being able to have sex and playing video games (and the whole underlying point you’re making) just doesn’t do much for me, as an arguement.

You have to make informed decisions on how you can lead you life by taking every day experiences and deciding how to react to them. Whether you follow you own free form thinking or that that has been “Ordained” as the right way is up to you…

I don’t live life just to survive it. That’s a rather bleak way to live. And “free form” thinking isn’t exactly sacred. What if free form thinking lead me to believe I could make a better profit using slave labor?[/quote]

You dont really make a point in you first paragraph. Love has nothing to do wit religion, its a human emotion.

Bleak it may be…but you live your life however you choose, but you can only choose from what is being offered to you.

185

[quote]pat wrote:
Let’s get down to the core of the matter, you believe there is no God and hence because of that all religion looks pretty much ridiculous, which makes sense. The real question is how you arrived at the conclusion there is no God. How do you “know”? I would assume you know because guessing really isn’t good enough. So let’s take religion totally out of the picture and tell me why you think there is no such thing as God…[/quote]

I’ll take this one.

I think there is no such thing as God for the same reason I don’t think there is a flying, shit encrusted, tea cup orbiting the surface of Venus that is totally invisible and cannot be detected by any means.

Proof is the burden of the believer. One cannot prove a negative.

186

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:

Figure out what you must do to survive in life…you cant sleep under religion. You cant eat it, buy necessities with it, have sex, play a video game, gamble …the list could go on. take away religion and those things will still exist…

All those things turn to dust and rust. I can experience them without religion, true. But, I can also experience them with religion. Take away love, and sex still exists. I’m sure video games would come around at some point or another, even without love existing in the world.

But, do I want a loveless, spitefull mindset, simply because I could still have me some angry sex, and then play some video games? Still being able to have sex and playing video games (and the whole underlying point you’re making) just doesn’t do much for me, as an arguement.

You have to make informed decisions on how you can lead you life by taking every day experiences and deciding how to react to them. Whether you follow you own free form thinking or that that has been “Ordained” as the right way is up to you…

I don’t live life just to survive it. That’s a rather bleak way to live. And “free form” thinking isn’t exactly sacred. What if free form thinking lead me to believe I could make a better profit using slave labor?

You dont really make a point in you first paragraph. Love has nothing to do wit religion, its a human emotion.

Bleak it may be…but you live your life however you choose, but you can only choose from what is being offered to you.[/quote]

I was making the point, that your point, about being able to enjoy video games without religion, wasn’t much of an arguement for me.

Love was only an example of something else one could lose, and still play video games, etc. In this case, I’m religious and can still enjoy video games (well, if I actually did enjoy them).

187

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
No, but that is my point from the beginning. There are those that do and those that claim to do, all in the name of…[/quote]

In the name of everything you could possibly think of. This isn’t news to Christians, which was the point of my response.

[quote]
My original question was “why does there have to be violent actions taken for the cause of a particular religion.”

They use religion to gain the acceptance of there actions…that doesn’t mean that they are true believers. Or, they may in fact be true believers but understand it in a different way and try to justify it by placing a religious belief tag on it…[/quote]

Because human beings are capable of violence. That’s all it boils down to. Maybe some will kill outside of self defense in the name of religion or atheism. Others for capitalism, socialism, Facism, or Communism.

Sometimes for gold, silver, or paper money. Maybe so their daughter doesn’t have to compete with the better cheerleader to make the squad. Etc. Maybe they kill their own children so the father will never get custody. Maybe it’s their preferred way to survive through life.

188

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:

Let’s get down to the core of the matter, you believe there is no God and hence because of that all religion looks pretty much ridiculous, which makes sense. The real question is how you arrived at the conclusion there is no God. How do you “know”? I would assume you know because guessing really isn’t good enough. So let’s take religion totally out of the picture and tell me why you think there is no such thing as God…

I dont know…but like i said in an earlier answer on this thread, I dont need to know. To me it is a total inconsequential need.
I dont live my life wondering if there is or isnt…it simply makes no difference to me.

I am interested in knowing why people can get so caught up in the belief of something like this. My opinions do tend to bias the non-existence of god, but that is because i see it for what it is. That being in how i live my life. I live with what i can control and guide to suit the way i have decided to live. I dont see the benefit of believing in any type of “common” religion. [/quote]

Fine, you won’t answer my question, then I won’t explain belief to you. You don’t want to know or need to know and I will not set myself up to be mocked by you.

189

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
pat wrote:
Let’s get down to the core of the matter, you believe there is no God and hence because of that all religion looks pretty much ridiculous, which makes sense. The real question is how you arrived at the conclusion there is no God. How do you “know”? I would assume you know because guessing really isn’t good enough. So let’s take religion totally out of the picture and tell me why you think there is no such thing as God…

I’ll take this one.

I think there is no such thing as God for the same reason I don’t think there is a flying, shit encrusted, tea cup orbiting the surface of Venus that is totally invisible and cannot be detected by any means.

Proof is the burden of the believer. One cannot prove a negative.[/quote]

The burden is on the questioner. If you ask the question then you have to answer and justify it. You cannot truly know anything to actually exist. Descarte broke it down to where he could only prove existence by his awareness that something exists. Hence, the only thing he could deduce exists is awareness. Mind you he could not prove anything physical exists. We subsist on probability and likeliness, not certainty. You cannot know all the properties of any single object, physical or metaphysical.
Bottom line is that you cannot know God does not exist because you cannot sense Him with your 5 senses. Your 5 senses offer you a limited but functional reality, but surly you cannot say that if it cannot be sensed it does not exist. I have a very specific idea in my head right now, you cannot see it, feel it, taste, hear it, or smell it. You have no idea what it is and even if you did you can’t know if it exists or not. Can you prove it does or does not exist? I could be lying you know.

190

[quote]pat wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pat wrote:
Let’s get down to the core of the matter, you believe there is no God and hence because of that all religion looks pretty much ridiculous, which makes sense. The real question is how you arrived at the conclusion there is no God. How do you “know”? I would assume you know because guessing really isn’t good enough. So let’s take religion totally out of the picture and tell me why you think there is no such thing as God…

I’ll take this one.

I think there is no such thing as God for the same reason I don’t think there is a flying, shit encrusted, tea cup orbiting the surface of Venus that is totally invisible and cannot be detected by any means.

Proof is the burden of the believer. One cannot prove a negative.

The burden is on the questioner. If you ask the question then you have to answer and justify it. You cannot truly know anything to actually exist. Descarte broke it down to where he could only prove existence by his awareness that something exists. Hence, the only thing he could deduce exists is awareness. Mind you he could not prove anything physical exists. We subsist on probability and likeliness, not certainty. You cannot know all the properties of any single object, physical or metaphysical.
Bottom line is that you cannot know God does not exist because you cannot sense Him with your 5 senses. Your 5 senses offer you a limited but functional reality, but surly you cannot say that if it cannot be sensed it does not exist. I have a very specific idea in my head right now, you cannot see it, feel it, taste, hear it, or smell it. You have no idea what it is and even if you did you can’t know if it exists or not. Can you prove it does or does not exist? I could be lying you know. [/quote]

No, the burden of proof is always on the one making the claim.

You make shit up, you proof it. There is no way to prove something does not exist so your version means asking for the impossible.

191

Three thoughts after catching up on this thread:

  1. all humans live, as it were, in a web of sin - that is to say, no one (however holy) stands outside of sin.

  2. every one of you has faith in something that you cannot prove to be true.

  3. my sense is that many posters here have experienced “religion” via their local bible thumping, literalist preacher; or, perhaps, their overbearing parents desperately trying to “get some religion” into their children. It’s not that surprising that they have come to believe that religion is a set of bizarre and irrational beliefs, a list of rules, etc.

To those people, I just want to say: coming to conclusions about “religion” (a category just as unhelpful and misleading as “secularist”) on the basis of this sort of experience is roughly akin to evaluating the efficacy of weight-training by watching some guy in a matching “sweatsuit” jerk off on a nautilus machine at your local health club.

Obviously that is not weight training. Nor does religion have any truck with literalism, fanaticism, intolerance, ignorance.

192

[quote]orion wrote:
pat wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pat wrote:
Let’s get down to the core of the matter, you believe there is no God and hence because of that all religion looks pretty much ridiculous, which makes sense. The real question is how you arrived at the conclusion there is no God. How do you “know”? I would assume you know because guessing really isn’t good enough. So let’s take religion totally out of the picture and tell me why you think there is no such thing as God…

I’ll take this one.

I think there is no such thing as God for the same reason I don’t think there is a flying, shit encrusted, tea cup orbiting the surface of Venus that is totally invisible and cannot be detected by any means.

Proof is the burden of the believer. One cannot prove a negative.

The burden is on the questioner. If you ask the question then you have to answer and justify it. You cannot truly know anything to actually exist. Descarte broke it down to where he could only prove existence by his awareness that something exists. Hence, the only thing he could deduce exists is awareness. Mind you he could not prove anything physical exists. We subsist on probability and likeliness, not certainty. You cannot know all the properties of any single object, physical or metaphysical.
Bottom line is that you cannot know God does not exist because you cannot sense Him with your 5 senses. Your 5 senses offer you a limited but functional reality, but surly you cannot say that if it cannot be sensed it does not exist. I have a very specific idea in my head right now, you cannot see it, feel it, taste, hear it, or smell it. You have no idea what it is and even if you did you can’t know if it exists or not. Can you prove it does or does not exist? I could be lying you know.

No, the burden of proof is always on the one making the claim.

You make shit up, you proof it. There is no way to prove something does not exist so your version means asking for the impossible.
[/quote]

Did you not make a claim? Just because you answer “No” to the question, “does God exist?”, does not excuse you from having to justify why you think he does not exist when the other perfectly viable answer is “Yes”. It’s weak and arrogant to say that because you do not believe in God that you are under no burden what so ever to justify your belief.

But if you wish, I like the Cosmological argument for the existence of God. Go find the argument and tell me why it is false. The argument is long and I won’t post it here because of that. It is my favorite though. It basically argues that everything comes from something where as you are arguing, or refusing to argue the point that everything comes from nothing.

193

[quote]pat wrote:

Did you not make a claim? Just because you answer “No” to the question, “does God exist?”, does not excuse you from having to justify why you think he does not exist when the other perfectly viable answer is “Yes”. It’s weak and arrogant to say that because you do not believe in God that you are under no burden what so ever to justify your belief.

[/quote]

…zactly.

194

Guys, The one thing that stands out to me here is the question of non-existence or existence.

I put this to you. You believe, and we, as you put it, do not believe.

Where has your belief originated from???

You are taking the word of a book that was written thousands of years ago.
Why is it that no one has been so thoroughly shown the existence of “God” as the others were back then to the extent that a book was written of his needs and wants. An existence that was so overwhelming that those that he revealed himself to could do nothing but obey. How is that different to our modern day enslavers like “Mao” who demand the same thing. Will he be seen as a “God” in a thousand years because of his philosophies being misinterpreted?

Is our world that is in the middle of a media epedemic and the ability to come and go as we please to anywhere in the world not in more need of saving by a “God” than it ever was back then?

I am merely saying that your “Belief” is still based on the unknown. I don’t say that “Unknowns” don’t exist…there will always be new discoveries as we develop. Religious belief just seems to be something that is taken for granted.

195

I don’t claim to “Know” that god does or doesn’t exist.

Therefore i have no need to prove it either way. It is only those that think they do or don’t that feel the need for proof.

I don’t care either way. that is who i am, no one can label me into either category because it means nothing to me, only to the labelers.

196

Perfectcircle,

Perhaps you are under the impression that faith & belief issues from the Bible. Just so we’re on the same page - at least from my point of view, the Anglo-Catholic faith - this is not so.

Once again, faith is faith precisely because its object cannot be “proven” - if it weren’t, it wouldn’t be a belief. Rather, it simply would be a certainty.

Once again, I’ll put this to you: you believe in many things that you cannot prove. But you still know them to be true.

Do you disagree or agree with this?

197

Give me an example of what i may believe in that i can’t prove.

198

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
pat wrote:

Did you not make a claim? Just because you answer “No” to the question, “does God exist?”, does not excuse you from having to justify why you think he does not exist when the other perfectly viable answer is “Yes”. It’s weak and arrogant to say that because you do not believe in God that you are under no burden what so ever to justify your belief.

…zactly.[/quote]

I do not claim that your God does not exist. I claim that it is highly unlikely that if there is a God, he is something that is even remotely similar to your God.

199

[quote]pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pat wrote:
Let’s get down to the core of the matter, you believe there is no God and hence because of that all religion looks pretty much ridiculous, which makes sense. The real question is how you arrived at the conclusion there is no God. How do you “know”? I would assume you know because guessing really isn’t good enough. So let’s take religion totally out of the picture and tell me why you think there is no such thing as God…

I’ll take this one.

I think there is no such thing as God for the same reason I don’t think there is a flying, shit encrusted, tea cup orbiting the surface of Venus that is totally invisible and cannot be detected by any means.

Proof is the burden of the believer. One cannot prove a negative.

The burden is on the questioner. If you ask the question then you have to answer and justify it. You cannot truly know anything to actually exist. Descarte broke it down to where he could only prove existence by his awareness that something exists. Hence, the only thing he could deduce exists is awareness. Mind you he could not prove anything physical exists. We subsist on probability and likeliness, not certainty. You cannot know all the properties of any single object, physical or metaphysical.
Bottom line is that you cannot know God does not exist because you cannot sense Him with your 5 senses. Your 5 senses offer you a limited but functional reality, but surly you cannot say that if it cannot be sensed it does not exist. I have a very specific idea in my head right now, you cannot see it, feel it, taste, hear it, or smell it. You have no idea what it is and even if you did you can’t know if it exists or not. Can you prove it does or does not exist? I could be lying you know.

No, the burden of proof is always on the one making the claim.

You make shit up, you proof it. There is no way to prove something does not exist so your version means asking for the impossible.

Did you not make a claim? Just because you answer “No” to the question, “does God exist?”, does not excuse you from having to justify why you think he does not exist when the other perfectly viable answer is “Yes”. It’s weak and arrogant to say that because you do not believe in God that you are under no burden what so ever to justify your belief.

But if you wish, I like the Cosmological argument for the existence of God. Go find the argument and tell me why it is false. The argument is long and I won’t post it here because of that. It is my favorite though. It basically argues that everything comes from something where as you are arguing, or refusing to argue the point that everything comes from nothing.[/quote]

God as the prime mover? Really?

There are so many holes in this, should I even begin?

“A cause” does not mean God, further, what or who caused God, then, “causation” is an a priori categorie necessary to experience anything but also very tricky because of it.

Logically, you cannot even prove that there is such a thing as cause and effect, so basing an argument on causation is flawed from the start.

edit:

And if you could prove causality, which you can´t, then it would still not work because before there was our universe the idea of cause and effect made no sense.

For there to be cause and effect, if there is such a thing, there has to be a universe that allows for it, to argue that a universe must have a cause is therefore in and of itself absurd.

200

[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
Give me an example of what i may believe in that i can’t prove.[/quote]

Causality, time and space, everything you need to have knowledge of before you can even start to interpret anything.

I am having a Kantian phase right now.