Based on my understanding of the Bible, I agree with your interpretation (If I were to accept the Bible as true).
I think based upon the Bible, that Calvinists got it right. I just don’t see how it could be interpreted differently if one is honest.
That was from Genesis 1, first chapter of the Bible. This is from Revelation 22, the last chapter.
My emphasis
12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
@mnben87 The Bible itself, as the words above show, refute your statement.
But it is, of course, a decision each one of has to make.
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I am not super convinced by those verses. They don’t get to the driving factor of the actions.
For example this:
doesn’t necessarily indicate that free will exists. Who desires could be pre determined. That isn’t excluded. I think that is true for all the examples.
The part about God knowing everything that has, is and will happen kinda make it so that our paths are determined if we believe in that. Nothing you could do wouldn’t be known before our action of doing it.
Yes, you have to start sorting out “election” and “predestination.” Does one thirst solely of their own free will? Or, because they were part of some predestined elect?
To be upfront, the libertarian free will vs some sort of determinism/compatibilism is more of theoretical thing. It’s not like disagreeing about the trinity, or something. I don’t think it’s a point for separation. Just setting the mood with that.
Nevermind, even if you read it 10 years ago, you wouldn’t be able to get the answer about details, not without google. And your not going to know a google proof answer from a 10 year old memory.
Heresy! What’s your argument for determinism?
A lack of freewill invalidates the cross. Without freewill, the cross is worthless. For if you act in accordance with God’s will, redemption isn’t necessary.
Jesus in the garden, just prior to being betrayed by Judas and taken by the Romans
And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
Edit
Text bolded itself… From the mind of God to the lips of this page haha
You technically cannot do any of that in the absence of freewill. You cannot choose to agree or disagree. You cannot choose to accept or not accept, that has been ordained already. Hence, no minds can be changed. And any action intended to convince or change a mind is a self-refuting argument, because in arguing you are acting against the proposition of determinism.
Hence, you cannot even make an argument for determinism, because the act itself is defiance of determinism.
What do you mean that’s minds can’t be changed? I don’t see how that follows. New external stimuli trigger a previously untriggered (but otherwise cocked and loaded) set of chemical reactions. You reacted to new information precisely as you must, with a “change of mind” (or not, depending on your triggers and locked and loaded patters of electro-chemical reactions). Only due to the lead of subconscious processes already developed through some combo of nature and nurture which were triggered by a precise external stimuli, and not some free internal will. That’s just the illusion we’re left with.
<Vampire hiss!>
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Well, in the simplest example I can think of, we can, in the absence of friction and irregularities on the edge of a pool table, theoretically predict the exact places a ball will end up at the exact time when hit with a specified amount of force.
If there’s a creator, whether divine or not, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to speculate that He/She/It has the technology so unbelievably advanced it’s completely beyond our level of comprehension that’s able to predict everything humans will do from birth to death along with all the natural phenomena in the world since our brains are essentially comprised of neurons and chemicals and stuff and everything that happens in the world is subject to cause and effect, and therefore calculable.
Fuck, I’m thinking too much…
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It’s only the illusion of you thinking you’re acting of your own free will.
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Need to insert the “bending the spoon” joke somewhere here.
What if it were predetermined that one’s mind would be changed? I know I’d do some shit like that if I had that kind of power just to troll you. Man, I’d even turn you into a diehard AOC fanboy if I felt really evil one day.
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I don’t know if I have said this, but I think much of this comes down to where we draw lines. If your mind and chemistry was subjected to the exact experiences I have experienced up until now, you would diverge from the path I will take into the future. In that case you made individual choices that are different likely than everyone else. At the same time, you didn’t choose your mind and chemistry, so who knows.
I am not convinced that there are any set destinations we are on, but I do think our choices are bounded by circumstance.
Perhaps. I haven’t found a person yet who claims determinism or compatibilism, and doesn’t live like they have free will. I suppose us not knowing if we have free will or if things are determined forces to act that way.
Yeah but if a creator had the technology to create the UNIVERSE, surely he can predict what MY path would be and every path of every single human on this planet despite the differences in individual biological profiles.
So was all this preordained by some dude with technology infinitely more advanced than determining the movement of the pool ball with a specified amount of force with the ability to predict the results of application of said force?
Good conversation guys.
Then there’s open theism…
Can everything be potentially predicted? I am not sure on this. We seem to think that randomness exists at a quantum level, and perhaps other areas like black holes, worm holes.
If a bit of randomness got inserted into this situation it could screw the whole prediction up.
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True, but we’re talking about a creator that CREATED all these things so he theoretically would have the ability to account for even the most minute instance of randomness. Or maybe it wasn’t even random in the first place, but rather, predetermined as part of a much larger, long term plan.
Our perception of reality when it comes to planning is in months, years and decades since our lifespans are limited on this earth. A creator’s could be in millennia or even longer.
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