Totally understand
are you concerned or not concerned that the teachers are brainwashing students with their belief systems in lieu of teaching the three R’s
Somewhat concerned. I haven’t seen it or heard of it in my very conservative district (people would definitely bitch about it).
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Meadows on Catholic channel.
I think they might actually be more likely to go to church as adults just based on my anecdotes. Early life for me was heavily religious, my close growing up friend group the same. Church twice a week, all of us going to private Christian schools. Most of us are not church goers. Friends with more moderate parents seem more likely to still be going to church.
Considering I have accepted your apology and I believe you can change your way of communicating with me, I will say this. You’re in a religious forum with some people who believe that by God some things should be done or not done. You don’t believe in abiding by God. So how can you possibly be convinced by a God-fearing person?
Furthermore I already have several times spoken about the possible wages of casual sex, which you do not put weight on. I will not speak further on the matter outside of religion in here. I did that in several other threads.
And it appears, correct me if I’m wrong, that you consider self-control to be unrealistic. It is easy to abstain from sex and cohabitation.
So why would you ask me if you don’t care what I have to say on the matter?
PS: I cohabitated and had a good amount of premarital sex in my life. I was also several times a “boyfriend”.
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I do care, even if I don’t agree with your perspective. Being exposed to one perspective and only one perspective makes an individual close minded. I want to hear what people from numerous different backgrounds have to say on the matter. I’m not opposed to the possibility someone or something could change my mind on the matter.
I’m young, I’m not all knowing and thus I’m happy to say “maybe I’m wrong”. I don’t want to come across as if I’m opinionated to the point I don’t care about what anyone else has to say… you also make me think, and I like that…
The coarse of events that unfold over our lives mould who we eventually become. I’ll probably be a very different person when I’m 40.
I do believe IN God and I believe in morality. When you refer to “abiding by god”, do you refer to abiding by a moral code?
I’ve agreed with you on numerous occasions that casual sex can result in the breakdown of friendships, relationships… can result in STD’s, bastard children, broken homes etc.
I poise a question. Is there an in between? What of a couple in a relationship that is having sex, but isn’t married yet? Casual sex was commonplace prior to the 1960s, yet consequences associated with it weren’t quite as commonplace. Presumably because people put more thought into the partners they slept with.
If self control was unrealistic, every human would be consistently only indulging of the most pleasurable of activities. This isn’t the case, though there are many who for whatever reason appear to lack self control.
Rather I see no good reason to abstain, especially if you’re at the stage of cohabitation. Couples will have a desire to be intimate with one another, basing the act of sexual intercourse as if it is a sin prior to marriage creates paradigm encompassing sex that is taboo, forbidden and perhaps even shameful provided he couple isn’t married. I don’t agree with that, but it is fine if others do. This is merely MY opinion
What if sex couldn’t result in pregnancy? With technological advancements we might actually reach that point without invasive surgical procedures. With further advancements we will also probably reach a stage wherein the prospect of STD’s becomes obsolete, after which only the social ramifications remain.
At that point, we might be looking at another sexual revolution, it could when be within our lifetimes. Or not… I’m just thinking out loud. I’m more concerned about the development of hyper realistic, human like AI that men and women can and will abuse for hedonistic purposes. That’s off topic though and talking about it makes me sound like a nut case (I’m fairly certain I’m right about the AI thing though)
I’ve noticed many tend to focus on immediate gratification over long term outcomes. Religion fights against this by giving most a means to believe in modesty, humility and community. The thought “most need to adhere to a 'heaven and hell” dynamic in order order behave appropriately makes me sad, and I don’t necessarily believe this. I’m not stating you believe this btw, I don’t know what you believe.
I believe the lack of morale within many can be accounted for by bad parenting… though I could be wrong.
If you don’t mind me asking a very graphic question, what are the specifics on non penetrative sexual relations prior to marriage. Say a couple is living together (or not, but cohabitation is common in the months prior to marriage), what are the specifics on non penetrative stimulation to completion? Is this also a "no’’ or does the boundary pertaining to premarital relations only pertain to penetrative sex? I’m curious, but if this question is too lewd you don’t have to answer.
Can a couple be intimate at all prior to marriage from a religious standpoint?
Was this a common thing? In Aus couples typically only co-inhabit if
- they can afford a place to live (not if you’re young lol)
- they’ve been together for a long time (long term relationship, fair chance of marriage).
- they’re about to get married
Where I used to live one of the most religious families had a son ended up becoming a cocaine dealer
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There is a somewhat common saying. If you want you child to be an atheist, send them to a Catholic school. Christian school could be substituted in that saying.
The dudes father was a pastor if I remember correctly.
Though I don’t agree with this. There are varying degrees of religion one can expose their children to. From what I’ve gathered catholic school isn’t necessarily as strict as it used to be.
Many Jewish kids from the more moderate, yet still conservative and religious Jewish schools loved it…
Look at yeshivah for a more extreme analogy, what percentage of kids are dropping out… even if they wanted to, many can’t. They’ve only socialised with their own kind, they haven’t been allowed to interact with anyone outside of their community (that is typically very one sided). When that’s all you know, you don’t stray unless you REALLY hate it. The latter representation typically eventuates through environmental traumas if it ever happens at all.
No… if you raise you child in an ultra conservative, sheltered environment with constant supervision chances are the child probably won’t rebell unless they come into contact with the real world prior to adulthood (by real world I refer to secular society)… and they don’t go to college… It’ll work, but the caveat is the now adult kid can’t navigate secular society without feeling profoundly uncomfortable.
Mission accomplished… now you’ll only ever feel comfortable within one type of community for the rest of your days. It works, but it doesn’t create a well rounded adult capable of interacting with the masses. However many within these communities don’t want to interact with the masses and they don’t want their child to either.
I think that strip’s the child of choice, but if they don’t know any different so be it… if they’re happy they’re happy… I can’t really say “it’s wrong” if it produces happy, perpetually naive (albeit sometimes intolerant) adults. problem is not everyone is happy within these communities, and if you aren’t happy you should be equipped with the means to break out.
I’m not using extremes here btw. The conservative and orthodox Jews make up 30-40% of all Jews. Orthodox and ultra orthodox coupled together make up 10-15% of Jews. The 10-15% I speak of for the most part refers to the yeshiva attending subtype
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What’s the point of cohabitation?
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The point of cohabitation is to determine whether two partners can tolerate living with one another… well there are a few anecdotal caveats I will provide.
Cohabitation sometimes occurs shortly before marriage/after a couple gets engaged.
I’ve RARELY known proper, adult relationships to break down following coinhabitation, for the most part it appears to solidfy the ‘we were meant to be’ narrative provided we both define cohabitation in a similar manner. The trial is a lot cheaper and less burdensome than a divorce if it doesn’t work out, and not all marriages work out.
You shouldn’t wait for a “unicorn to appear” in your life prior to getting married as that ‘true love’ crap in the movies isn’t realistic but you should find out whether two parties are compatible with one another living in close quarters.
Coinhabitancy is more difficult to break off relative to a relationship where both live apart from one another. You share belongings, perhaps you split rent, you share furniture… perhaps you share one Netflix account… it solidifies one is ready for the real deal.
Should also be noted if we need to get down to the nitty gritty details… if sexual intercourse is a big deal to a couple, they can probably avoid having sex even when living together. It’s not impossible, one can be intimate without sex… If that’s not an option and self stimulation is also off the table, take up boxing or something… because you’ll need it 
. Instead of making out on the couch two can have a sparring match whenever the urge to be intimate arises (joking… it’d be a no contest, the guy would win 99% of the time).
Other perfectly appropriate reasons for couples to live together I’ve seen are
- two have been going out for a while (say six months) and the girl/woman lives in an abusive household (abusive parent/parents), so she goes to live with the boyfriend (who at the time was living alone).
- loving couple who never got married because they didn’t want to, they’ve been together for 10+ years. I’ve seen this on more than one occasion
@BrickHead is this method of communication appropriate? Notify me if I say something or have said something that crosses a line and I will adjust accordingly. I’m merely kidding around in what I perceive to be a harmless manner when I talk about sparring matches and whatnot.
It should be noted I do believe we have spoken about our views on cohabitation before
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Instead of going on how I feel I’ve decided to resort to what typically resort to.
That is… looking at data to validate or invalidate my beliefs. With regards to cohabitation, you might be correct.
The data isn’t formulated in a manner that can be quantified with a high degree of certainty, as many overlapping variables are present.
There is some research to suggest those who coinhabit prior to marriage are less likely to get divorced during the twelve months subsequent to getting married, however the risk of divorce increases from baseline after year 1 to being slightly above the median.
Other bodies of research suggest coinhabitancy is associated with higher odds of divorce… however it is specified coinhabitancy is frequently associated with having a child out of wedlock and financial disadvantage, both of which negatively impact marital outcomes. Chicken or egg?
From what I can tell, there’s a decent chance you are correct in that coinhabitancy doesn’t provide much in the way of meaning to a lifelong relationship. I say this because there are studies encompassing decent sample sizes wherein married couples who didn’t live together prior to marriage report having more satisfactory relationships. My question is… if we were to create a linear regression factoring out all other negative environmental variables, would coinhabitancy (or sexytimes) be sole variables dictating marital outcomes on an epidemiological scale?
I say this because I’ve seen data on sex partners vs divorce. Those with zero sex parters (one not being far off) are the least likely to divorce… after that there isn’t much of a difference between 2-10 partners if I recall correctly.
It was specified those with a zero/one body count were likely to be very religious. To which I’d say “divorce is frowned upon within these communities. Difficult to break out if you face ostracism as a result”.
Are the divorces mediated by the sex or the religion. I think perhaps a bit of both. Japan represents a relatively non-religious, sexually repressed culture wherein the average age for loss of virginity is mid 20’s. Many do actually remain celibate til marriage (around 15%), and otherwise generally speaking people don’t rack up high body counts… yet the divorce rate is still up there with other western countries.
To note, sex outside of marriage isn’t a sin within Japanese culture. It is seen akin to a natural urge and this urge when excised casually isn’t considered morally objectionable. However the Japanese have a culture of working VERY Hard and thus many choose to remain celibate, or without a romantic partner. Hence why birth rates in Japan are very low… Japan is an odd country…
Could the correlation with premarital sex and divorce have more to do with religious influence as opposed to the sex alone?
I fail to see how having a few partners within a non promiscuous context would impact the odds of divorce.
I’m honestly surprised there’s much difference for any demographic in this time period. Do a sizable number of people really get divorced less than a year after being married?
As far as cohabitation goes: I doubt cohabitation causes marital problems. It’s that people who cohabitate less often have moral/religious opposition to divorce; they’re more likely to treat marriage like a high school relationship.
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You’d be surprised… some people get married on a whims notice while drunk in Vegas
I was pondering this too
Ditto with the relationship between having zero sex partners and lower divorce rates
Having an opposition to divorce and thus not divorcing doesn’t =/= a happy marital dynamic
As I wrote in the dating thread, I didn’t need data on this. Data only confirmed what I already observed regardless of the numbers. I don’t need specific numbers for real life for all my conclusions. Of the women I know since childhood who were and still are obsessed with socializing, were sexually actively at relatively young ages, and thereby had who knows how many “boyfriends”, how many are divorced? Nearly all of them. Only one I know is not. One of them includes a woman divorced from a former professional baseball player.
And as I oftentimes say to men if they aren’t fond of what I say, they can go try it out. That is, if they don’t consider an over-socialized woman with a high “lay count” to present high risk of divorce, go court one. It might work out.
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Respectfully sir, I think we ALL agree with you in that marrying a hyper promiscuous, impulsive woman who favours immediate gratification over long term prosperity instantly stacks the deck of cards against you.
There is a middle ground. It isn’t necessarily “zero sexual partners” or “one night stands on tinder every week!”
you’ll find “womanisers” also tend to also have pathological personality types, they tend to not be the best long term partners.
As to the woman who married and divorced a professional baseball player… did you meet him? And.. cha chiiinnnng 
Yes, it might as people do change. However what are the odds? Say the woman has slept with 2,000 men (or vice versa with the man). Perhaps this individual is a TAD bit impulsive… that or they’re a prostitute, they have a problem like sex addiction/look for validity through sexual relations (major red flag)… I can’t foresee any scenarios wherein individuals with obscenely high body counts haven’t instantaneously made me think “I bet he/she has a ton of baggage”. For reach that I’ve gotten to know, I’ve always been correct about this presumption.
But plenty of moderates have a few partners before settling down. Not everyone wants to get married young. I believe you have stated people are free to do as they choose, however you believe younger courtship/serious relations would eventuate a better net outcome.
If this is the case, we don’t really have much to debate about here as we partially see eye to eye over this. I don’t think marrying young is optimal, but if a young couple wants to do so… good for them, it DOES work for many. If it were more feasible from a financial standpoint and stable careers weren’t so hard to come by perhaps I’d be in agreement with you regarding far more of this.
I worry about the financial situation, but that’s not really my business is it…
I’ll be up front about it. I wouldn’t court a woman with an obscenely high body count because my insecurity would get the best of me, I’d feel very intimidated. That and, unless this behaviour was say… over a decade ago trust issues on my side would understandably eventuate.
Why? There’s no reason to be intimidated or insecure from dealing with any woman in a social context.
I’m talking about dating/long term relationships.
My insecurities would overcome me if my girlfriend/wife had slept with say 300 guys. It’s petty, but I’m being upfront about it.
Talking to women like this doesn’t phase me, the thought of pursuing a relationship makes me uncomfortable BECUASE
I’d feel as if I wasn’t up to par… that and I’d be worried about the possibility of other men within a seemingly monogamous relationship. It’s toxic ideology on my behalf, but I’m being upfront about it. I’m not perfect, I have my own insecurities and demon’s that I need to wrestle with.
I’d also rather opt out of such a relationship because for the most part, such a high body count tends to reflect badly upon an individual. I don’t know anyone with a HUGE slew of partners who doesn’t have serious psychiatric aberrations, and I’ve got my own shit to deal with.
I don’t need to date someone who is impulsive and prone to rapid, spur of the moment emotional outbursts. I need to date a woman who will encourage me to stay in line.
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