God damn Brits, French and Americans, if it wasn’t for making Germany pay war reparations then German elites would never have had to support and fund Hitler, so Hitler, the guys who funded him, all only existed because of British, French and American imperialism, without them and their policies German elites would never have had to back the national socialist movement and their rise to power. So it really is Americas and Britains and Frances fault, not the germans, or the German financiers of the Nazi party, or the nazi Party’s fault.
[/quote]
Ok we get it, you’re another poster who blames America for all of the world’s troubles.[/quote]
What I gather is you don’t understand sarcasm.My entire point was you blaming the soviet Union for the spread of Islamic Extremism, not the U.S who funded Islamic extremists. The mental gymnastic required to make such a statement is hilarious and about as logical as blaming the allies for the rise of Hitler.
Do you know what is as bad as blaming America for everything? Absolving America of all of its actions and downplaying the affects of its actions. Saying the USSR caused the rise of Islamic Extremism, not the west, who gave them billions, weaponry and political support is as disingenuous as it gets.
Back to the original topic. Mayhem in Beli Manastir, Croatia. This is just a few miles from where I live.
Syrians vs. Afghans (mostly northern Tajiks it seems)
Knives, rocks, and clubs (!) were also used.
Fortunately, our usually very incompetent government reacted sensibly - they immediately refused any EU speculations about the establishment of “transit camps”.
Migrants are given food, water and it necessary medical aid and driven via Hungary to Austria - “nothing to see here, move along” policy.
The leftists who until two days ago berated the general public in the media for being provincial pious xenophobes are strangely silent now.
Since the Germans are so desperate to accommodate these guys, it’s gonna be very interesting walking the streets of Berlin or Hamburg.
[quote]loppar wrote:
Back to the original topic. Mayhem in Beli Manastir, Croatia. This is just a few miles from where I live.
Syrians vs. Afghans (mostly northern Tajiks it seems)
Knives, rocks, and clubs (!) were also used.
Fortunately, our usually very incompetent government reacted sensibly - they immediately refused any EU speculations about the establishment of “transit camps”.
Migrants are given food, water and it necessary medical aid and driven via Hungary to Austria - “nothing to see here, move along” policy.
The leftists who until two days ago berated the general public in the media for being provincial pious xenophobes are strangely silent now.
Since the Germans are so desperate to accommodate these guys, it’s gonna be very interesting walking the streets of Berlin or Hamburg.[/quote]
You are Croatian? Do you remember that global map some comedian did years ago and for the Balkans he just wrote “resident evil countries”
How is the general level of anti-foreigner attitude in Croatia?
You are Croatian? Do you remember that global map some comedian did years ago and for the Balkans he just wrote “resident evil countries”
How is the general level of anti-foreigner attitude in Croatia?
[/quote]
Yes I do. It seems the “warring tribes from the Balkan mountains” are not the bogeyman anymore for Western Europeans as they have much, much more serious problems.
Since Croatia is visited by millions of foreign tourists every year one cannot speak about any “anti-foreign” sentiment. We are a small, parochial, staunchly catholic country with a strong provincial streak and only several aspects of national character generally attributed to the people from the “Balkans”.
Up until a few days ago most of the population, including myself, were positively predisposed towards the refugees.
There was a huge media offensive to portray the migrants in a positive light with the general appeal “to show our humanity”. First day was almost idyllic, with policemen carrying exhausted children etc.
Things took a sharp turn for the worse after that, and the do gooders who were proclaiming their readiness to accept Syrians in their homes suddenly fell silent. Of course, male migrants not allowing women and children to take food and water from NGO activists had something to do with that.
. There is a veritable shitstorm on local forums and social media which can be partly attributed to the aforementioned parochialism, but more to the rapidly changing facts on the ground. I think this is partially responsible for such a sudden U-turn in the government policy as this resembles a migration of peoples not seen since the end of the Roman Empire .
Schools are closed in Eastern Croatia and most of the people in towns such as Tovarnik and Beli Manastir are staying indoors. The talk on the street is that many are relieved that they’ve kept their firearms from the war, just in case.
There is an unspoken social contract between the people and the government - we are passively resigned to corrupt, inefficient governments in exchange for public safety - Croatia in general and Zagreb in particular are one of the safest places in Europe, expect maybe Iceland. These migrants could probably change this equation should they stay.
Migrants are pretty much regularly fighting among themselves, occasionally flashing knives towards the police and throwing rocks. One reported was hit in the head by a rock thrown by one of the asylum seekers in Zagreb, where migrants threw furniture from the hotel windows.
Police are largely ineffectual and are content to guide the migrants to the Hungarian border with minimum property damage.
Now there are clashes with Slovenian riot police on the border with Slovenia as migrants are trying to break through. Teargas has been used extensively.
You are Croatian? Do you remember that global map some comedian did years ago and for the Balkans he just wrote “resident evil countries”
How is the general level of anti-foreigner attitude in Croatia?
[/quote]
Yes I do. It seems the “warring tribes from the Balkan mountains” are not the bogeyman anymore for Western Europeans as they have much, much more serious problems.
Since Croatia is visited by millions of foreign tourists every year one cannot speak about any “anti-foreign” sentiment. We are a small, parochial, staunchly catholic country with a strong provincial streak and only several aspects of national character generally attributed to the people from the “Balkans”.
Up until a few days ago most of the population, including myself, were positively predisposed towards the refugees.
There was a huge media offensive to portray the migrants in a positive light with the general appeal “to show our humanity”. First day was almost idyllic, with policemen carrying exhausted children etc.
Things took a sharp turn for the worse after that, and the do gooders who were proclaiming their readiness to accept Syrians in their homes suddenly fell silent. Of course, male migrants not allowing women and children to take food and water from NGO activists had something to do with that.
. There is a veritable shitstorm on local forums and social media which can be partly attributed to the aforementioned parochialism, but more to the rapidly changing facts on the ground. I think this is partially responsible for such a sudden U-turn in the government policy as this resembles a migration of peoples not seen since the end of the Roman Empire .
Schools are closed in Eastern Croatia and most of the people in towns such as Tovarnik and Beli Manastir are staying indoors. The talk on the street is that many are relieved that they’ve kept their firearms from the war, just in case.
There is an unspoken social contract between the people and the government - we are passively resigned to corrupt, inefficient governments in exchange for public safety - Croatia in general and Zagreb in particular are one of the safest places in Europe, expect maybe Iceland. These migrants could probably change this equation should they stay.
Migrants are pretty much regularly fighting among themselves, occasionally flashing knives towards the police and throwing rocks. One reported was hit in the head by a rock thrown by one of the asylum seekers in Zagreb, where migrants threw furniture from the hotel windows.
Police are largely ineffectual and are content to guide the migrants to the Hungarian border with minimum property damage.
Now there are clashes with Slovenian riot police on the border with Slovenia as migrants are trying to break through. Teargas has been used extensively.
[/quote]
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.[/quote]
I can’t speak for Hungary but I have to stress that here migrants are fighting AMONG THEMSELVES. Local police are under strict orders not to use force, as can be seen from the meek reactions of the officers in the clips above.
Even the guy who hit a reported in the head with a rock has not been detained.
The migrants are VERY belligerent, on the evening of the first day the problems started when they refused to board a train for a detention center, insisting on being driven in buses instead and threatening to tear the railway station down.
When they protest, they tend to refuse food and water distributed by NGOs and Red Cross volunteers. This usually means that men prevent women and children from getting provisions.
As I’ve worked in the Gulf and speak a smattering of Arabic I spoke to a upper middle class family from Damascus - they’re nice people but it’s incredible, it’s like Germany is hard-wired into their brain. One of the biggest problems I foresee is that they have wildly unrealistic expectations about life in Germany and the amount of help they will get.
I think Germany will have to deal with thousands of disaffected immigrants down the line.
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.[/quote]
I can’t speak for Hungary but I have to stress that here migrants are fighting AMONG THEMSELVES. Local police are under strict orders not to use force, as can be seen from the meek reactions of the officers in the clips above.
Even the guy who hit a reported in the head with a rock has not been detained.
The migrants are VERY belligerent, on the evening of the first day the problems started when they refused to board a train for a detention center, insisting on being driven in buses instead and threatening to tear the railway station down.
When they protest, they tend to refuse food and water distributed by NGOs and Red Cross volunteers. This usually means that men prevent women and children from getting provisions.
As I’ve worked in the Gulf and speak a smattering of Arabic I spoke to a upper middle class family from Damascus - they’re nice people but it’s incredible, it’s like Germany is hard-wired into their brain. One of the biggest problems I foresee is that they have wildly unrealistic expectations about life in Germany and the amount of help they will get.
I think Germany will have to deal with thousands of disaffected immigrants down the line.
[/quote]
I think this is the most balanced account of a Syrian refugee in Germany. Read some of his points of response, he addresses most of your worries, some of them he is more close to your point of view than mine.
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.[/quote]
I can’t speak for Hungary but I have to stress that here migrants are fighting AMONG THEMSELVES. Local police are under strict orders not to use force, as can be seen from the meek reactions of the officers in the clips above.
Even the guy who hit a reported in the head with a rock has not been detained.
The migrants are VERY belligerent, on the evening of the first day the problems started when they refused to board a train for a detention center, insisting on being driven in buses instead and threatening to tear the railway station down.
When they protest, they tend to refuse food and water distributed by NGOs and Red Cross volunteers. This usually means that men prevent women and children from getting provisions.
As I’ve worked in the Gulf and speak a smattering of Arabic I spoke to a upper middle class family from Damascus - they’re nice people but it’s incredible, it’s like Germany is hard-wired into their brain. One of the biggest problems I foresee is that they have wildly unrealistic expectations about life in Germany and the amount of help they will get.
I think Germany will have to deal with thousands of disaffected immigrants down the line.
[/quote]
I think this is the most balanced account of a Syrian refugee in Germany. Read some of his points of response, he addresses most of your worries, some of them he is more close to your point of view than mine.
4- “Are there ISIS jihadists among the refugees?”
Yes, that is quite a high possibility.
I would like to point out that this was my worry in the first place, and it has been verified by a Syrian as a legitimate concern.
“3- “You are coming in mass numbers, you’re backwards and will commit many crimes…”
Yup, many people came in mass numbers, but we won’t commit crimes, why do you think all these people are criminals? if in Syria, where the judicial and executive branches are well corrupted, and poverty is wide spread, crime wasn’t common at all, at least in my region, so why exactly would these people have a change of heart in a more welcoming and safe country?”
This response does not engender much confidence, either.
If these people are not processed properly, this will be the mother of all bad decisions.
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.[/quote]
I can’t speak for Hungary but I have to stress that here migrants are fighting AMONG THEMSELVES. Local police are under strict orders not to use force, as can be seen from the meek reactions of the officers in the clips above.
Even the guy who hit a reported in the head with a rock has not been detained.
The migrants are VERY belligerent, on the evening of the first day the problems started when they refused to board a train for a detention center, insisting on being driven in buses instead and threatening to tear the railway station down.
When they protest, they tend to refuse food and water distributed by NGOs and Red Cross volunteers. This usually means that men prevent women and children from getting provisions.
As I’ve worked in the Gulf and speak a smattering of Arabic I spoke to a upper middle class family from Damascus - they’re nice people but it’s incredible, it’s like Germany is hard-wired into their brain. One of the biggest problems I foresee is that they have wildly unrealistic expectations about life in Germany and the amount of help they will get.
I think Germany will have to deal with thousands of disaffected immigrants down the line.
[/quote]
I think this is the most balanced account of a Syrian refugee in Germany. Read some of his points of response, he addresses most of your worries, some of them he is more close to your point of view than mine.
4- “Are there ISIS jihadists among the refugees?”
Yes, that is quite a high possibility.
I would like to point out that this was my worry in the first place, and it has been verified by a Syrian as a legitimate concern.
“3- “You are coming in mass numbers, you’re backwards and will commit many crimes…”
Yup, many people came in mass numbers, but we won’t commit crimes, why do you think all these people are criminals? if in Syria, where the judicial and executive branches are well corrupted, and poverty is wide spread, crime wasn’t common at all, at least in my region, so why exactly would these people have a change of heart in a more welcoming and safe country?”
This response does not engender much confidence, either.
If these people are not processed properly, this will be the mother of all bad decisions. [/quote]
i don’t think anyone is saying there is no threat that IS will send men over, the issue is there are elements claiming large amounts of these desperate people are actually jihadists and that we should not let them seek refuge in our lands.
Some Irish immigrants were involved in Republican plots in England. That does not mean the logical or moral thing to do is ban all Irish immigrants from settling in England, because that sort of collective punishment is bigoted and is not compatible with the great cultural identity of the west, which despite all its bad actions in the past is the best hope of the world.
[quote]DBADNB1 wrote:
Saying the USSR caused the rise of Islamic Extremism, not the west, who gave them billions, weaponry and political support is as disingenuous as it gets.
[/quote]
So, we funded Islamic Extremism with billions, weaponry & political support because we had nothing better to do. Ok. I understand. Now it all makes sense. Thanks.
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.[/quote]
I can’t speak for Hungary but I have to stress that here migrants are fighting AMONG THEMSELVES. Local police are under strict orders not to use force, as can be seen from the meek reactions of the officers in the clips above.
Even the guy who hit a reported in the head with a rock has not been detained.
The migrants are VERY belligerent, on the evening of the first day the problems started when they refused to board a train for a detention center, insisting on being driven in buses instead and threatening to tear the railway station down.
When they protest, they tend to refuse food and water distributed by NGOs and Red Cross volunteers. This usually means that men prevent women and children from getting provisions.
As I’ve worked in the Gulf and speak a smattering of Arabic I spoke to a upper middle class family from Damascus - they’re nice people but it’s incredible, it’s like Germany is hard-wired into their brain. One of the biggest problems I foresee is that they have wildly unrealistic expectations about life in Germany and the amount of help they will get.
I think Germany will have to deal with thousands of disaffected immigrants down the line.
[/quote]
I think this is the most balanced account of a Syrian refugee in Germany. Read some of his points of response, he addresses most of your worries, some of them he is more close to your point of view than mine.
4- “Are there ISIS jihadists among the refugees?”
Yes, that is quite a high possibility.
I would like to point out that this was my worry in the first place, and it has been verified by a Syrian as a legitimate concern.
“3- “You are coming in mass numbers, you’re backwards and will commit many crimes…”
Yup, many people came in mass numbers, but we won’t commit crimes, why do you think all these people are criminals? if in Syria, where the judicial and executive branches are well corrupted, and poverty is wide spread, crime wasn’t common at all, at least in my region, so why exactly would these people have a change of heart in a more welcoming and safe country?”
This response does not engender much confidence, either.
If these people are not processed properly, this will be the mother of all bad decisions. [/quote]
i don’t think anyone is saying there is no threat that IS will send men over, the issue is there are elements claiming large amounts of these desperate people are actually jihadists and that we should not let them seek refuge in our lands.
Some Irish immigrants were involved in Republican plots in England. That does not mean the logical or moral thing to do is ban all Irish immigrants from settling in England, because that sort of collective punishment is bigoted and is not compatible with the great cultural identity of the west, which despite all its bad actions in the past is the best hope of the world.
[/quote]
Processing is not a collective punishment, it is basic, rational immigration policy. Besides, the differences between the IRA and Islamism have been mentioned before in this thread. One is apocalyptic, the other is not.
[quote]DBADNB1 wrote:
Saying the USSR caused the rise of Islamic Extremism, not the west, who gave them billions, weaponry and political support is as disingenuous as it gets.
[/quote]
So, we funded Islamic Extremism with billions, weaponry & political support because we had nothing better to do. Ok. I understand. Now it all makes sense. Thanks.
[/quote]
Wait … Are you denying we funded Islamic extremists with billions of dollars, gave them weapons and political support?
Ever heard of operation cyclone?
And no, it was not done because “we had nothing better to do” but no one claimed such nonsense, as you know. The cold war was about fighting via proxies, the idea was to get the USSR bogged down in small wars and stretch it militarily and bankrupt it, along with our other strategy via the arms race.
Osama Bin Laden famously studied this idea for bringing down empires and that was his plan behind the attacks on US embassies, ships and 9/11. Get America involved in many small wars, bleed the empire through decades of military expenditure and unify the Muslim nations against an eventually weakened bankrupt America.
Unfortunately his strategy was brilliant as we predictably invaded Afghanistan and Iraq spent trillions and have unified the islamist movements in the middle east.
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.[/quote]
I can’t speak for Hungary but I have to stress that here migrants are fighting AMONG THEMSELVES. Local police are under strict orders not to use force, as can be seen from the meek reactions of the officers in the clips above.
Even the guy who hit a reported in the head with a rock has not been detained.
The migrants are VERY belligerent, on the evening of the first day the problems started when they refused to board a train for a detention center, insisting on being driven in buses instead and threatening to tear the railway station down.
When they protest, they tend to refuse food and water distributed by NGOs and Red Cross volunteers. This usually means that men prevent women and children from getting provisions.
As I’ve worked in the Gulf and speak a smattering of Arabic I spoke to a upper middle class family from Damascus - they’re nice people but it’s incredible, it’s like Germany is hard-wired into their brain. One of the biggest problems I foresee is that they have wildly unrealistic expectations about life in Germany and the amount of help they will get.
I think Germany will have to deal with thousands of disaffected immigrants down the line.
[/quote]
I think this is the most balanced account of a Syrian refugee in Germany. Read some of his points of response, he addresses most of your worries, some of them he is more close to your point of view than mine.
4- “Are there ISIS jihadists among the refugees?”
Yes, that is quite a high possibility.
I would like to point out that this was my worry in the first place, and it has been verified by a Syrian as a legitimate concern.
“3- “You are coming in mass numbers, you’re backwards and will commit many crimes…”
Yup, many people came in mass numbers, but we won’t commit crimes, why do you think all these people are criminals? if in Syria, where the judicial and executive branches are well corrupted, and poverty is wide spread, crime wasn’t common at all, at least in my region, so why exactly would these people have a change of heart in a more welcoming and safe country?”
This response does not engender much confidence, either.
If these people are not processed properly, this will be the mother of all bad decisions. [/quote]
i don’t think anyone is saying there is no threat that IS will send men over, the issue is there are elements claiming large amounts of these desperate people are actually jihadists and that we should not let them seek refuge in our lands.
Some Irish immigrants were involved in Republican plots in England. That does not mean the logical or moral thing to do is ban all Irish immigrants from settling in England, because that sort of collective punishment is bigoted and is not compatible with the great cultural identity of the west, which despite all its bad actions in the past is the best hope of the world.
[/quote]
Processing is not a collective punishment, it is basic, rational immigration policy. Besides, the differences between the IRA and Islamism have been mentioned before in this thread. One is apocalyptic, the other is not. [/quote]
IRA bombings and other terrorist attacks have killed more people in England than Muslim terrorism, and was just as random regarding the victims, such as toddlers, pensioners etc killed. Complete innocents. We didn’t use these atrocities to implement such policies against the irish settling here. Many of whom were refugees from the violence in Ireland.
That does not even include all the other terror attacks in England nevermind the ones in NI.
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.[/quote]
I can’t speak for Hungary but I have to stress that here migrants are fighting AMONG THEMSELVES. Local police are under strict orders not to use force, as can be seen from the meek reactions of the officers in the clips above.
Even the guy who hit a reported in the head with a rock has not been detained.
The migrants are VERY belligerent, on the evening of the first day the problems started when they refused to board a train for a detention center, insisting on being driven in buses instead and threatening to tear the railway station down.
When they protest, they tend to refuse food and water distributed by NGOs and Red Cross volunteers. This usually means that men prevent women and children from getting provisions.
As I’ve worked in the Gulf and speak a smattering of Arabic I spoke to a upper middle class family from Damascus - they’re nice people but it’s incredible, it’s like Germany is hard-wired into their brain. One of the biggest problems I foresee is that they have wildly unrealistic expectations about life in Germany and the amount of help they will get.
I think Germany will have to deal with thousands of disaffected immigrants down the line.
[/quote]
I think this is the most balanced account of a Syrian refugee in Germany. Read some of his points of response, he addresses most of your worries, some of them he is more close to your point of view than mine.
4- “Are there ISIS jihadists among the refugees?”
Yes, that is quite a high possibility.
I would like to point out that this was my worry in the first place, and it has been verified by a Syrian as a legitimate concern.
“3- “You are coming in mass numbers, you’re backwards and will commit many crimes…”
Yup, many people came in mass numbers, but we won’t commit crimes, why do you think all these people are criminals? if in Syria, where the judicial and executive branches are well corrupted, and poverty is wide spread, crime wasn’t common at all, at least in my region, so why exactly would these people have a change of heart in a more welcoming and safe country?”
This response does not engender much confidence, either.
If these people are not processed properly, this will be the mother of all bad decisions. [/quote]
i don’t think anyone is saying there is no threat that IS will send men over, the issue is there are elements claiming large amounts of these desperate people are actually jihadists and that we should not let them seek refuge in our lands.
Some Irish immigrants were involved in Republican plots in England. That does not mean the logical or moral thing to do is ban all Irish immigrants from settling in England, because that sort of collective punishment is bigoted and is not compatible with the great cultural identity of the west, which despite all its bad actions in the past is the best hope of the world.
[/quote]
Processing is not a collective punishment, it is basic, rational immigration policy. Besides, the differences between the IRA and Islamism have been mentioned before in this thread. One is apocalyptic, the other is not. [/quote]
IRA bombings and other terrorist attacks have killed more people in England than Muslim terrorism, and was just as random regarding the victims, such as toddlers, pensioners etc killed. Complete innocents. We didn’t use these atrocities to implement such policies against the irish settling here. Many of whom were refugees from the violence in Ireland.
That does not even include all the other terror attacks in England nevermind the ones in NI.[/quote]
I am Northern Irish, so I am familiar with their MO. My point, which remains unaddressed, is that their aims were specific and negotiable. IS and AQ have golbal aims, with no such analogy.
I could also talk through the domestic treatment of Catholic Ireland which would dwarf what has currently occurred to the Syrian influx, the point remains that these people need to be processed.
Also, if we are to treat Islamism as a singular measurable threat, rather than regarding specific countries, it dwarfs the IRA kill count globally.
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.[/quote]
I can’t speak for Hungary but I have to stress that here migrants are fighting AMONG THEMSELVES. Local police are under strict orders not to use force, as can be seen from the meek reactions of the officers in the clips above.
Even the guy who hit a reported in the head with a rock has not been detained.
The migrants are VERY belligerent, on the evening of the first day the problems started when they refused to board a train for a detention center, insisting on being driven in buses instead and threatening to tear the railway station down.
When they protest, they tend to refuse food and water distributed by NGOs and Red Cross volunteers. This usually means that men prevent women and children from getting provisions.
As I’ve worked in the Gulf and speak a smattering of Arabic I spoke to a upper middle class family from Damascus - they’re nice people but it’s incredible, it’s like Germany is hard-wired into their brain. One of the biggest problems I foresee is that they have wildly unrealistic expectations about life in Germany and the amount of help they will get.
I think Germany will have to deal with thousands of disaffected immigrants down the line.
[/quote]
I think this is the most balanced account of a Syrian refugee in Germany. Read some of his points of response, he addresses most of your worries, some of them he is more close to your point of view than mine.
4- “Are there ISIS jihadists among the refugees?”
Yes, that is quite a high possibility.
I would like to point out that this was my worry in the first place, and it has been verified by a Syrian as a legitimate concern.
“3- “You are coming in mass numbers, you’re backwards and will commit many crimes…”
Yup, many people came in mass numbers, but we won’t commit crimes, why do you think all these people are criminals? if in Syria, where the judicial and executive branches are well corrupted, and poverty is wide spread, crime wasn’t common at all, at least in my region, so why exactly would these people have a change of heart in a more welcoming and safe country?”
This response does not engender much confidence, either.
If these people are not processed properly, this will be the mother of all bad decisions. [/quote]
i don’t think anyone is saying there is no threat that IS will send men over, the issue is there are elements claiming large amounts of these desperate people are actually jihadists and that we should not let them seek refuge in our lands.
Some Irish immigrants were involved in Republican plots in England. That does not mean the logical or moral thing to do is ban all Irish immigrants from settling in England, because that sort of collective punishment is bigoted and is not compatible with the great cultural identity of the west, which despite all its bad actions in the past is the best hope of the world.
[/quote]
Processing is not a collective punishment, it is basic, rational immigration policy. Besides, the differences between the IRA and Islamism have been mentioned before in this thread. One is apocalyptic, the other is not. [/quote]
IRA bombings and other terrorist attacks have killed more people in England than Muslim terrorism, and was just as random regarding the victims, such as toddlers, pensioners etc killed. Complete innocents. We didn’t use these atrocities to implement such policies against the irish settling here. Many of whom were refugees from the violence in Ireland.
That does not even include all the other terror attacks in England nevermind the ones in NI.[/quote]
I am Northern Irish, so I am familiar with their MO. My point, which remains unaddressed, is that their aims were specific and negotiable. IS and AQ have golbal aims, with no such analogy.
I could also talk through the domestic treatment of Catholic Ireland which would dwarf what has currently occurred to the Syrian influx, the point remains that these people need to be processed.
Also, if we are to treat Islamism as a singular measurable threat, rather than regarding specific countries, it dwarfs the IRA kill count globally. [/quote]
Al Qaeda did have goals:
All non muslims out of the Arabian Peninsula
Stop funding Israel
Stop funding secular dictators
Stay out of the muslim sphere of influence.
We could agree to them, we could bow down to terrorism and negotiate with them and end their campaign against the west and let them create their caliphate in the Muslim world. I don’t support that, but we could of negotiated with them. We fucking shouldn’t have, but they did have goals and despite being irrational players, had rational demands per their ideology.
Al Qaeda wanted to either get us to withdraw from the Muslim world, stop funding Israel etc or, as that wasn’t likely had a long term strategy to get us to invade muslim lands and bankrupt ourselves in the bleed the snake theory regarding defeating empires.
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.[/quote]
I can’t speak for Hungary but I have to stress that here migrants are fighting AMONG THEMSELVES. Local police are under strict orders not to use force, as can be seen from the meek reactions of the officers in the clips above.
Even the guy who hit a reported in the head with a rock has not been detained.
The migrants are VERY belligerent, on the evening of the first day the problems started when they refused to board a train for a detention center, insisting on being driven in buses instead and threatening to tear the railway station down.
When they protest, they tend to refuse food and water distributed by NGOs and Red Cross volunteers. This usually means that men prevent women and children from getting provisions.
As I’ve worked in the Gulf and speak a smattering of Arabic I spoke to a upper middle class family from Damascus - they’re nice people but it’s incredible, it’s like Germany is hard-wired into their brain. One of the biggest problems I foresee is that they have wildly unrealistic expectations about life in Germany and the amount of help they will get.
I think Germany will have to deal with thousands of disaffected immigrants down the line.
[/quote]
I think this is the most balanced account of a Syrian refugee in Germany. Read some of his points of response, he addresses most of your worries, some of them he is more close to your point of view than mine.
4- “Are there ISIS jihadists among the refugees?”
Yes, that is quite a high possibility.
I would like to point out that this was my worry in the first place, and it has been verified by a Syrian as a legitimate concern.
“3- “You are coming in mass numbers, you’re backwards and will commit many crimes…”
Yup, many people came in mass numbers, but we won’t commit crimes, why do you think all these people are criminals? if in Syria, where the judicial and executive branches are well corrupted, and poverty is wide spread, crime wasn’t common at all, at least in my region, so why exactly would these people have a change of heart in a more welcoming and safe country?”
This response does not engender much confidence, either.
If these people are not processed properly, this will be the mother of all bad decisions. [/quote]
i don’t think anyone is saying there is no threat that IS will send men over, the issue is there are elements claiming large amounts of these desperate people are actually jihadists and that we should not let them seek refuge in our lands.
Some Irish immigrants were involved in Republican plots in England. That does not mean the logical or moral thing to do is ban all Irish immigrants from settling in England, because that sort of collective punishment is bigoted and is not compatible with the great cultural identity of the west, which despite all its bad actions in the past is the best hope of the world.
[/quote]
Processing is not a collective punishment, it is basic, rational immigration policy. Besides, the differences between the IRA and Islamism have been mentioned before in this thread. One is apocalyptic, the other is not. [/quote]
IRA bombings and other terrorist attacks have killed more people in England than Muslim terrorism, and was just as random regarding the victims, such as toddlers, pensioners etc killed. Complete innocents. We didn’t use these atrocities to implement such policies against the irish settling here. Many of whom were refugees from the violence in Ireland.
That does not even include all the other terror attacks in England nevermind the ones in NI.[/quote]
I am Northern Irish, so I am familiar with their MO. My point, which remains unaddressed, is that their aims were specific and negotiable. IS and AQ have golbal aims, with no such analogy.
I could also talk through the domestic treatment of Catholic Ireland which would dwarf what has currently occurred to the Syrian influx, the point remains that these people need to be processed.
Also, if we are to treat Islamism as a singular measurable threat, rather than regarding specific countries, it dwarfs the IRA kill count globally. [/quote]
Al Qaeda did have goals:
All non muslims out of the Arabian Peninsula
Stop funding Israel
Stop funding secular dictators
Stay out of the muslim sphere of influence.
We could agree to them, we could bow down to terrorism and negotiate with them and end their campaign against the west and let them create their caliphate in the Muslim world. I don’t support that, but we could of negotiated with them. We fucking shouldn’t have, but they did have goals and despite being irrational players, had rational demands per their ideology.
Al Qaeda wanted to either get us to withdraw from the Muslim world, stop funding Israel etc but as that wasn’t likely had a long term strategy to get un to invade muslim lands and bankrupt ourselves.
[/quote]
You are ignoring the frailties of your comparison with that reductive list.
Al Qaeda wants ALL Western influence removed from the middle east, the PIRA were most active while Northern Irish Catholics lacked universal suffrage. The IRA wanted Britain gone, but they were willing to negotiate terms. One=/=other.
The IRA were negotiating as soon as 3 years into the conflict (assuming one dates their existence in the modern age to circa 1969). Al Qaeda have utterly unfeasible goals, some of which have been relayed by your list. You are, however, missing an important one, namely the belief that Western influence is evil and must be eradicated.
This is, of course, ignoring the fervently apocalyptic goals of IS. That requires an entirely separate discussion.
Do you not see any connection between the way the refugee’s are acting and their treatment by the authorities in many places like Hungary? Desperate people tend to act rather desperately. For example when you see on the news police beating the shit out of people holding babies and children with Saliva and tears streaming down their face from tear gas, it does not seem like they are rioting over nothing.
Some of the police actions have been gross overreactions. Especially the baton beating they gave to that elderly man holding a small child. Other stuff like the conditions at the camps as was filmed which caused popular outrage seem to point to reasonable anger from the refugees.[/quote]
I can’t speak for Hungary but I have to stress that here migrants are fighting AMONG THEMSELVES. Local police are under strict orders not to use force, as can be seen from the meek reactions of the officers in the clips above.
Even the guy who hit a reported in the head with a rock has not been detained.
The migrants are VERY belligerent, on the evening of the first day the problems started when they refused to board a train for a detention center, insisting on being driven in buses instead and threatening to tear the railway station down.
When they protest, they tend to refuse food and water distributed by NGOs and Red Cross volunteers. This usually means that men prevent women and children from getting provisions.
As I’ve worked in the Gulf and speak a smattering of Arabic I spoke to a upper middle class family from Damascus - they’re nice people but it’s incredible, it’s like Germany is hard-wired into their brain. One of the biggest problems I foresee is that they have wildly unrealistic expectations about life in Germany and the amount of help they will get.
I think Germany will have to deal with thousands of disaffected immigrants down the line.
[/quote]
I think this is the most balanced account of a Syrian refugee in Germany. Read some of his points of response, he addresses most of your worries, some of them he is more close to your point of view than mine.
4- “Are there ISIS jihadists among the refugees?”
Yes, that is quite a high possibility.
I would like to point out that this was my worry in the first place, and it has been verified by a Syrian as a legitimate concern.
“3- “You are coming in mass numbers, you’re backwards and will commit many crimes…”
Yup, many people came in mass numbers, but we won’t commit crimes, why do you think all these people are criminals? if in Syria, where the judicial and executive branches are well corrupted, and poverty is wide spread, crime wasn’t common at all, at least in my region, so why exactly would these people have a change of heart in a more welcoming and safe country?”
This response does not engender much confidence, either.
If these people are not processed properly, this will be the mother of all bad decisions. [/quote]
i don’t think anyone is saying there is no threat that IS will send men over, the issue is there are elements claiming large amounts of these desperate people are actually jihadists and that we should not let them seek refuge in our lands.
Some Irish immigrants were involved in Republican plots in England. That does not mean the logical or moral thing to do is ban all Irish immigrants from settling in England, because that sort of collective punishment is bigoted and is not compatible with the great cultural identity of the west, which despite all its bad actions in the past is the best hope of the world.
[/quote]
Processing is not a collective punishment, it is basic, rational immigration policy. Besides, the differences between the IRA and Islamism have been mentioned before in this thread. One is apocalyptic, the other is not. [/quote]
IRA bombings and other terrorist attacks have killed more people in England than Muslim terrorism, and was just as random regarding the victims, such as toddlers, pensioners etc killed. Complete innocents. We didn’t use these atrocities to implement such policies against the irish settling here. Many of whom were refugees from the violence in Ireland.
That does not even include all the other terror attacks in England nevermind the ones in NI.[/quote]
I am Northern Irish, so I am familiar with their MO. My point, which remains unaddressed, is that their aims were specific and negotiable. IS and AQ have golbal aims, with no such analogy.
I could also talk through the domestic treatment of Catholic Ireland which would dwarf what has currently occurred to the Syrian influx, the point remains that these people need to be processed.
Also, if we are to treat Islamism as a singular measurable threat, rather than regarding specific countries, it dwarfs the IRA kill count globally. [/quote]
Al Qaeda did have goals:
All non muslims out of the Arabian Peninsula
Stop funding Israel
Stop funding secular dictators
Stay out of the muslim sphere of influence.
We could agree to them, we could bow down to terrorism and negotiate with them and end their campaign against the west and let them create their caliphate in the Muslim world. I don’t support that, but we could of negotiated with them. We fucking shouldn’t have, but they did have goals and despite being irrational players, had rational demands per their ideology.
Al Qaeda wanted to either get us to withdraw from the Muslim world, stop funding Israel etc but as that wasn’t likely had a long term strategy to get un to invade muslim lands and bankrupt ourselves.
[/quote]
You are ignoring the frailties of your comparison with that reductive list.
Al Qaeda wants ALL Western influence from the middle east, the PIRA were most active while Northern Irish Catholics lacked universal suffrage. One=/=other.
The IRA were negotiating as soon as 3 years into the conflict (assuming one dates their existence in the modern age to circa 1969). Al Qaeda have utterly unfeasible goals, some of which have been relayed by your list. You are, however, missing an important one, namely the belief that Western influence is evil and must be eradicated.
This is, of course, ignoring the fervently apocalyptic goals of IS. That requires an entirely separate discussion.
[/quote]
Obviously AlQaeda have a far more reaching goal than the Irish Republican movement did, however my only point was that we could of negotiated with them, for example Al Qaeda did offer a truce with European nations in 2004:
Anyway this is a side topic, the point was the IRA killed more than Muslim terrorists in the UK, more Irish immigrants have been involved in and carried out terrorist attacks than muslim immigrants. We however did not implement any policies around this to curb Irish Immigration.
Wait … Are you denying we funded Islamic extremists with billions of dollars, gave them weapons and political support?
Ever heard of operation cyclone?
[/quote]
Operation Cyclone? What would have happened had the Russians not taken “the bait” and not invaded Afghanistan? What if they just armed Nur Muhammad Taraki and let him tackle the insurgents?
Also you don’t think Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, & The Pakistani ISI didn’t have a hand in training the Afghan rebels?
Furthermore, the main ally of the United States was
Ahmad Shah Massoud, a stanch enemy of the Taliban and the man credited by the Wall Street Journal of “winning the Cold War” by defeating the Soviets. He was so pro-Western & anti-Taliban that he was assassinated a few days before the 9-11 attacks because Bin Laden used his death to gain support from the Taliban and because had he remained in power he possibly could have been used by the US to destroy both the Taliban & Al-Qaeda.
Massoud was the ruler of the Northern Alliance who rolled over both groups at the start of the US invasion and, had we not been side tracked by the Iraq war, the Taliban & Al-Qaeda possibly would have been soundly defeated.
And still, who could have predicted that Bin Laden would have created Al-Qaeda and turned on the United States once the Soviets had left Afghanistan?
Bin Laden was pissed because when Saddam invaded Kuwait he wanted his army of Holy Warriors to be invited by the Saudis to fight the Iraqis. The Saudis instead invited the American armed forces to Arabia to push Saddam out of Kuwait during the first Gulf War, something Bin Laden saw as blasphemous. Who could have predicted those turn of events?
But it’s easy to blame America for everything I guess.
