What poor advice have I given exactly?
Bro I guess he talks about the idea that having 550-600 total T is not worth going down the TRT path.
But in fact there are people like @dextermorgan that has started TRT with 600 total T and is very happy. Of course in my humble opinion it doesn’t mean it will be the case for everybody, because I do not have enough case experience. But a highly respected doctor I talked to told me that it is worth starting.
By the way @dextermorgan is injecting every day and does not use AI and HCG and is extremely happy with his testosterone optimization(I think the word replacement should be scrapped). I just hope similar good results can be achieved with HCG included 
#1 following estrogen and making adjustments based on its value
#2 recommending donation for hematocrit
I could spend the next 2 hours discussing both but that would be reinventing the wheel. Plenty of podcasts and other social media platforms where they have been discussed in detail
“In every study done in the last 80 years showing the positive effects of testosterone in not one of them did they block or control estrogen…not a single one”. The classic bodybuilders that actually looked the best (Arnold) didn’t know anything about an AI.
In over 80 years of use and abuse, testosterone has never caused a heart attack, stroke, or DVT in ANY study. There is no need to donate while on testosterone. The physiologic erythrocytosis is a beneficial effect of testosterone. It’s exactly why endurance athletes abuse it and why you can heal diabetic ulcers with it for example…the increased tissue oxygenation is beneficial.
The majority of testosterones beneficial effects are directly related to its aromatization into estrogen.
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How real is the possibility of the erythrocytosis itself even healthy to get the man feeling uncomfortable if becomes too high? (asking because’ve read such reports)
Also what is the risk of the erythrocytosis to become polycythemia? Could not understand that from the literature very well…
I told him to drop his AI.
To jump back in here, but I was NOT taking an AI, and then I started feeling shitty. I then took .25 on 2 occasions. The half life on the last dose has past. I’m still up and down, but hopefully on the upswing.
But what was challenging was the fact that I was feeling so heavy in my head, lethargic, brain fog, etc… really not a good feeling. Still waiting on Thyroid panel as per the suggestions here.
Bear in mind again here, I was feeling wonky before I did the blooddraw showing the hematocrit at 53, then gave blood the next day. Still was feeling pretty poor. Waiting on followup bloods.
PCV is a bone marrow cancer so the risk of testosterone induced erythrocytosis becoming PCV is zero
If donating makes them feel better then donate. If they are donating because they think they will have a MI, stroke, or blood clot if they don’t then they would be mistaken. In no study in the history of testosterone has it caused any of those.
You can read anything on forums no matter how ridiculous it may be. You can read somewhere right now that estrogen causes cancer and AIs are beneficial and healthy.
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Not sure what high e is. I used to think I did until
I learned of its many benefits and then all the high e symptoms just disappeared. We fear what we are taught to fear. We get what we are told we will get. That’s the total issue with estrogen.
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So if the symptoms people feel when they take too much testosterone aren’t elevated e2 then?
So what is it then? What causes the bloat, ed, anxiety and moodiness then?
Or should one just take MORE testosterone when these items pop up to “alleviate symptoms” ?
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Arnold used primo mostly for darn sake. You keep repeating that shit like parrots, jesus christ are people stupid
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So maybe I should just run primo then lol. problems solved.
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Agree. Whatever I was getting symptom wise, was coming with NO AI. And based on bloodwork, not related to RBR, Hemoglobin, etc… my count went from 53 to 42 in 2 weeks (I donated).
I’m aware of arguments that H&H don’t matter, and maybe that’s true. And also, as noted, I live at elevation. My pre TRT numbers in March for Hematocrit were 48. But I was 44 in July, and back down there now. Go figure. I hike often as my cardio, so I don’t even know.
I am leaning towards believing the estrogen is good crowd, but what causes the shittiness? Is it perhaps just simply… high T levels? overwhelming androgen receptors? Is is that why it takes long to dial in? I have more questions than answers here, but I definitely think this is a better forum than reddit.
i’ll update bloodwork when I get it back.
I’m definitely curious about point #2. I would love to know more. And I would like to know why I was slowly feeling shittier as things went on? Was it too much test that overwhelms the system? If it’s not estrogen, and I’ve ruled out hemoglobin/hematocrit from bloods 2 weeks after the last check, then what is the deal?
Again, I am brain foggy, super sensitive to caffeine/coffee, etc. I ran the AI ONLY after I was having problems, and after I gave blood and was having no improvement.
Logically, there’s going to be a point of diminishing returns with estrogen. Like anything else, there will be a threshold in every individual where too much will lead to side effects, just like too little. Saying that more is always better hasn’t been my experience.
Bottom line with estrogen - a relatievely healthy individual with frequent injections should not have e2 out of balance with testosterone. If the man is too fat and aromatizes really much, then some temporary e2 control may be necessary with the idea the get the fucking fat off and stop all e2 control ASAP.
I plan when start TRT not to apply any E2 control, will monitor it of course
You remind me of someone without kids giving parenting advice to parents. I do agree with you that dropping fat can help reduce t to e aromatization. Gut and liver health are other factors as well.
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Yes, I guess. That’s why I work hard now to cut body fat, I’ve reduced significantly liver fat and hope that metformin will have good effect on gut health(said to do so).
I’ve not been on TRT but I’ve had like 50 e2 and I was feeling great, I was much fatter and free test was a little bit higher than now(like 22 ng/l). Now my e2 is like 27
Testosterone for one but amazingly taking an AI or not taking an AI the bloat goes away. Honestly, all the anxiety, ed, moodiness etc…you just read about on forums and they are all guys usually taking AIs and always tweaking their “protocols” and never giving anything time to settle in. Once they let their bodies acclimate it all goes away…if they would just give it time. I don’t see all these symptoms you mention. I read about them on forums but never see it and nobody is on an AI and most all of their free testosterone is 30 or greater. If they would just get enough testosterone and then give it time to work It would. The body has to adjust and it can take a couple of months but if they can be patient and not reach for the AI or change something as soon as they get a itchy nipple or feel bloated it would all just go away on its own. I used to do it myself. I’m would reach for the AI and within a day or two the symptoms would resolve. When I stopped the AI and I got the same symptoms and didn’t take the AI the symptoms also went away in a day or two. We fear what we are taught to fear and we get what we are told we will get. So we fear estrogen and we get estrogen symptoms. Funny how all the practitioners I work and talk to dont have anyone on an AI and their patients don’t get estrogen symptoms. As a older bodybuilder pointed out to me…Arnold and the others in his time that looked so much better than the bodybuilders today did not take AIs.
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So my FT is 193.4 pg/dl (35-155). EDITED
What is this in ng/ml? Everyone states as long is its above “30” you should be good. 30 what?