Ratted Out At Work

I really need to step in here – your rosy objectivist view of the world is making you sound like Headhunter.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Why did you do a BSc in CS? Do you love it, or did you figure it was a safe route?[/quote]

I lived most of my life here in the Silicon Valley, so I witnessed CS’ birth, growth – and demise. Many of my friends were pioneers, truly passionate people about IT and CS that have now cruelly found out it has been destroyed by greed – and found themselves trapped in a world they once loved passionately but now hate – a world once exciting and new that is now dominated by bad managers, repetitive, mindless work… and outsourcing.

Most of them are young (if you consider under 40 young) and wealthy enough to get back to school and change careers (one of them, 38, just got accepted to UCSF Medical), however, it’s at least a decade or two of their lives they’ll never get back.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
If you could have any job in the world, what would it be? What are you doing to make that happen?[/quote]

Yes, many people just whine about their job instead of doing something about it, but even discounting for Zap’s extremely good point that SOMEBODY has to do the dirty jobs, considering that overwhelming majority of people in this country have a net worth under $10k, and little to no disposable income, how realistic is it for them to go back to school to switch careers? Have you any idea how much tuition costs in this country these days?

Of course, some people have tried to switch careers without going back to school, but 99% of them never even get an interview: jobs that get people passionate about them usually have high demand, and employers can be picky about how they even interview – they’ll invariably look for both a degree in the field AND experience…

And about promotions: I’ve found that rarely it is the most competent people that get promoted – for several reasons. But that’s a whole thread in itself, and I have the sneaky feeling you’ll learn that one way or another in a few years. Hopefully (for you) not the hard way.

You’re young, intelligent, and live in a country that supports you. It’s good and natural that you’re optimistic. But if you really want to start criticizing the people you are criticizing, you’ll have to try being in their position – not just attack them from your pedestal.

[quote]vaughn5000 wrote:
kroc30 wrote:

The anti-union guy couldn’t pass math and only knows what he hears from other people, not from real life experiences.

A “blue state” teacher is pro-union. Should I be surprised?

BTW, I was once a Teamster.

[/quote]

LOL - I wasn’t always a teacher. I worked union construction while I was going to school, among other jobs, not to mention that in NY teachers are all union.

Aleksandr Used the wrong word. True, not EVERYONE can do something they love . . . but ANYONE can.

Yes, the world needs people to clean toilets. Make sure you’re not one of them.

And for those who whine and bitch that they can’t do it, well:

I can’t get in shape because:

I have no energy/I’m too fat/I don’t have any support/blahblahblah routine didn’t work for me/diets don’t work/studies show that lost weight always comes back/I don’t have access to a top quality gym/I can’t afford the latest equipment/You can’t get in good shape without expensive supplements/You can’t build lots of muscle without steroids

Understand the comparison I’m making? Or am I being too subtle?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:

Not everyone can be a professional football player. Not everyone can be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. EVERYONE can do something they love…

No they can’t. The world needs people to do crappy jobs too.

No matter how motivated and hard working everyone is someone still needs to clean the toilets.[/quote]

[quote]Natural Nate wrote:
I can’t get in shape because:
[/quote]

Mommy keeps buying Oreos?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:

Not everyone can be a professional football player. Not everyone can be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. EVERYONE can do something they love…

No they can’t. The world needs people to do crappy jobs too.

No matter how motivated and hard working everyone is someone still needs to clean the toilets.[/quote]

Not to mention things that happen in life that could hinder someone’s advancement. Having a kid at a young age and having no financial support will be a much larger blow to someone’s life than the kid whose parents paid for his entire education.

[quote]Natural Nate wrote:
Yes, the world needs people to clean toilets. Make sure you’re not one of them.

And for those who whine and bitch that they can’t do it, well:

I can’t get in shape because:

I have no energy/I’m too fat/I don’t have any support/blahblahblah routine didn’t work for me/diets don’t work/studies show that lost weight always comes back/I don’t have access to a top quality gym/I can’t afford the latest equipment/You can’t get in good shape without expensive supplements/You can’t build lots of muscle without steroids

Understand the comparison I’m making? Or am I being too subtle?[/quote]

No, you are not being subtle, but you are being incredibly stupid.

There are many profound differences between the two things you are trying to compare. To name a few…

In order for you to get in shape, gain 50 lbs of muscle, lose 250 lbs of fat, whatever:

  1. Nobody is stopped from doing the same thing. You’re not taking a place, a spot, that could have been taken by somebody else. You’re not competing for that spot.

  2. Nobody has to pay you to do that, so you do not have to create a benefit for somebody else either.

  3. You set your own objectives. You measure your own progress. You “promote” yourself. You’re not dependent on somebody to decide you deserve to be promoted.

  4. It requires no investment in education – information is available for free and you can always use your bodyweight to exercise. If you’re just in need to lose a few pounds, you can in fact save money by eating less.

Getting in shape is exclusively dependent on you.

Getting a job you’ll love and succeeding in it depends on a LOT of factors that you might have absolutely no control on.

[quote]hspder wrote:
I really need to step in here – your rosy objectivist view of the world is making you sound like Headhunter.
[/quote]

It’s not rosey, but I really do feel everyone would be better off if they spent a little more time thinking about their opportunities and a little less time thinking about their limitations.

That sucks, but I think this guy said he’s 26, he’s only been out of school for a few years, and I doubt he only noticed recently that he isn’t passionate about it.

You should know that both of my parents have a net worth of less than 10k (they are divorced). That’s an obstacle, sure, but it doesn’t make it impossible to advance in life. A friend of mine immigrated to Canada from Bulgaria, and his parents were unable to find meaningful work. The mother worked as a maid, and the father was a cab driver. They worked really hard, saved up some money, and opened a restaurant. It has been open for years, and I do believe it’s the most successful restaurant in the city. Needless to say, they are quite well-off now.

Who took their jobs as maids and cab drivers? Either someone trying to save up some money, or someone lacking in talent and ambition that will never strive for more.

That’s not necessarily true, but an attitude like that makes success impossible. Everyone has problems they need to overcome, and trying to come up with a plan is much more productive than complaining about how hard it is.

I hope to be on the giving-end of promotions, not the receiving-end. This falls into the “low ambition” thing, I think.

Like I said, I am an immigrant, and many of my friends have been immigrants. I don’t have to try being in someone else’s position, I’m FROM that position. If I’m critical, it’s because I’ve seen any people succeed, and many people fail. The truth is, in Canada, immigrants that have lived here for a while make more than those born in Canada. Similarly, I recall reading that in the US, immigrants are over-represented among self-made millionaires. How do you think that a group that you would expect to have a hard time ends up being so successful? I’d wager they spend more time thinking about opportunites than they do about limitations.

[quote]Natural Nate wrote:
Aleksandr Used the wrong word. True, not EVERYONE can do something they love . . . but ANYONE can.
[/quote]

You are absolutely right. I love the comparison, too.

Kind of cool how every point you wrote could absolutely be applied to someone starting his own business, with the exception of no. 2.

[quote]hspder wrote:

  1. Nobody is stopped from doing the same thing. You’re not taking a place, a spot, that could have been taken by somebody else. You’re not competing for that spot.

  2. Nobody has to pay you to do that, so you do not have to create a benefit for somebody else either.

  3. You set your own objectives. You measure your own progress. You “promote” yourself. You’re not dependent on somebody to decide you deserve to be promoted.

  4. It requires no investment in education – information is available for free and you can always use your bodyweight to exercise. If you’re just in need to lose a few pounds, you can in fact save money by eating less.

Getting in shape is exclusively dependent on you.

Getting a job you’ll love and succeeding in it depends on a LOT of factors that you might have absolutely no control on.

[/quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:

Not everyone can be a professional football player. Not everyone can be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. EVERYONE can do something they love…

No they can’t. The world needs people to do crappy jobs too.

No matter how motivated and hard working everyone is someone still needs to clean the toilets.

Not to mention things that happen in life that could hinder someone’s advancement. Having a kid at a young age and having no financial support will be a much larger blow to someone’s life than the kid whose parents paid for his entire education.[/quote]

Of course that (being poor) makes it harder but it isn’t impossible. My mother was able to contribute a total of $1500 to my tuition, I paid for the rest either from working, or through student loans.

[quote]Natural Nate wrote:
Kind of cool how every point you wrote could absolutely be applied to someone starting his own business, with the exception of no. 2.
[/quote]

This is exactly what I thought when I read his post. It seems that most people are very intent on making someone else rich.

Lack of ambition.

[quote]Natural Nate wrote:
Kind of cool how every point you wrote could absolutely be applied to someone starting his own business, with the exception of no. 2.[/quote]

I was expecting you to say that – however not only you’re not completely right (no. 1 also applies – if somebody is buying YOUR product or YOUR service, it’s not buying somebody else’s), but also you’re forgetting that we’re talking about people doing what they are passionate about. Not everybody – actually, only a small % of people – want to have their own business or, better yet, would be good at managing their own business. I have a classroom full of very driven people every day, people that are on a management track (I teach MBA students) and less than a quarter of them will say that starting their own business is something they would like to do.

[quote]hspder wrote:

I was expecting you to say that – however not only you’re not completely right (no. 1 also applies – if somebody is buying YOUR product or YOUR service, it’s not buying somebody else’s), but also you’re forgetting that we’re talking about people doing what they are passionate about. Not everybody – actually, only a small % of people – want to have their own business or, better yet, would be good at managing their own business. I have a classroom full of very driven people every day, people that are on a management track (I teach MBA students) and less than a quarter of them will say that starting their own business is something they would like to do.

[/quote]

Business is an end to some people (I think it would be a lot of fun), but for other people it is a means. There are people that love fashion, carpentry, organizing events, writing, doing research, architecture, law, dancing, painting, playing an instrument, entertaining others, et cetera. If these people can’t find work they are passionate about, they can either clean toilets, or start their own business. Hell, if they don’t like managing it, they can always hire one of your MBA students (or more realistically, a BCOMM or BBA student) to do it for them.

[quote]InCorporeSano wrote:
hedgrinder wrote:

And don’t give me anything about, “Not everyone hates their job.” Maybe a relative few don’t HATE their jobs, but given a choice, I think just about EVERYONE would rather not be working, than working. We are there for money, and that is it. Every SECOND over 40 hours I’m stuck in the office, in a salaried position, is taking money OUT of my paycheck.

Are you for real? Apparently you’ve never met or had a real conversation with a priest, rabbi, imam, nun/monk, teacher, chef, journalist, trauma surgeon, EMT, or any of the many other professions that people feel themselves ‘called’ to.

Many of us find our work inspiring and engaging. I, for one, can’t wait to see my students in the morning and find that although I enjoy the summers off, I really look forward to starting school again in the fall.

[/quote]

I second this statement. I’m about to be a physical therapist, and I can’t imagine doing anything else. I am finally able to answer that old high school counselor adage: “If you had ten million dollars and could do anything you wanted, what would you do?”
I am happy that PTs make decent salaries, but that only further cements my thoughts that this is, to quote an earlier post, “my calling”.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:

Not everyone can be a professional football player. Not everyone can be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. EVERYONE can do something they love…

No they can’t. The world needs people to do crappy jobs too.

No matter how motivated and hard working everyone is someone still needs to clean the toilets.

Not to mention things that happen in life that could hinder someone’s advancement. Having a kid at a young age and having no financial support will be a much larger blow to someone’s life than the kid whose parents paid for his entire education.

Of course that (being poor) makes it harder but it isn’t impossible. My mother was able to contribute a total of $1500 to my tuition, I paid for the rest either from working, or through student loans.[/quote]

Your point? I paid for my education also. Hell, I am STILL paying. However, I also didn’t have three kids to pay for. I am also not so blind as to not understand how some issues in life could hinder someone’s abilities to succeed. Getting into social factors would be entire discussion on its own considering someone raised to care more about education will be at a huge advantage compared to someone whose family didn’t care much at all about it and never even expected them to make it out of high school. Much of the way kids handle their lives is based on the cycle created by their parents. It is safe to say that the child of a mother who had her first kid at 15 will probably be more likely to get pregnant in high school herself. That creates an entirely different path in someone’s life than the kid who simply had to pay for school.

People like you blame the individual if they don’t succeed as if success alone is completely based on the individual This is NOT true. Is anyone here under the delusion that our own president would be where he is today if his daddy wasn’t wealthy and already a political leader? Exactly how many kids from the projects make it to be president?

In the business world, progress is very often dependant on the decisions of those above you. Some other poster mentioned starting your own business. Most businesses fail within their first year. Your progress in life is not always just dependant on you. If there are others in the way of your place in a school, a specific job title or a promotion, how could anyone in their right mind blame the individual alone for how far up the ladder they travel?

I truly believe the most ignorant people around are those who think they truly “made it” all by themselves.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
That sucks, but I think this guy said he’s 26, he’s only been out of school for a few years, and I doubt he only noticed recently that he isn’t passionate about it.[/quote]

There’s nothing wrong with noticing you’re not passionate about something – or someone – you thought you were. Happens millions of times a day. It will happen to you several times over the course of your life. And he’s doing something about it.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
You should know that both of my parents have a net worth of less than 10k (they are divorced). That’s an obstacle, sure, but it doesn’t make it impossible to advance in life. A friend of mine immigrated to Canada from Bulgaria, and his parents were unable to find meaningful work. The mother worked as a maid, and the father was a cab driver. They worked really hard, saved up some money, and opened a restaurant. It has been open for years, and I do believe it’s the most successful restaurant in the city. Needless to say, they are quite well-off now.

Who took their jobs as maids and cab drivers? Either someone trying to save up some money, or someone lacking in talent and ambition that will never strive for more.[/quote]

Yes, there are many stories like that. But, first, they are becoming more and more rare in the US, because of a) skyrocketing tuition costs, and b) an increasing consolidation in several industries that is making starting or owning a small business harder and harder in many areas.

Second, not everybody wants to own a restaurant. You need to realize that not everybody wants to have a job that is available or own a company for which there is space in the market for. My whole point is that there are factors here you cannot control: first, you cannot control what you are passionate about. Second, you cannot control the society around you and force it to give you a chance.

Sure, there will always be success stories. There will always be people that work hard, are patient and are rewarded for it. But it is not a sure outcome. It is not deterministic. You cannot fool yourself into thinking that given enough hard work, determination and patience you WILL get the job of your dreams. You can tell yourself you MIGHT, you can tell yourself it’s your BEST CHANCE, or that it’s the RIGHT THING TO DO… but not that you WILL.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
That’s not necessarily true, but an attitude like that makes success impossible.[/quote]

What attitude? Realizing that you might have to wait 5 years and/or get back to college before you even get called for an interview? Why does that make success impossible? I personally know half a dozen people that spent the last 5 years very determined to find new jobs, outside the IT industry, trying every day, with the best attitude, and although they are still trying, none of them succeeded, in spite of being very driven, very passionate people.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Everyone has problems they need to overcome, and trying to come up with a plan is much more productive than complaining about how hard it is.[/quote]

Absolutely. I’m not arguing with that. My point is that one needs to be realistic, and understand that in spite of all possible efforts, you might never succeed.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Like I said, I am an immigrant, and many of my friends have been immigrants. I don’t have to try being in someone else’s position, I’m FROM that position. [/quote]

No you’re not. You’re not 38 and sick and tired about the industry you spent your whole professional life in. You’re not living in a country where it costs $100k a year to keep yourself in a decent college (tuition, living costs, etc.).

You give your host country too little credit, and you’re looking at life from too early of an age to really understand what I’m talking about.

And why do you feel that being an immigrant puts you at a disadvantage? In many cases, at least over here in the Bay Area, being an immigrant puts you at an ADVANTAGE. For two reasons: first, you might have the benefit of coming here with a decent education that didn’t cost you thousands of dollars a year. Second, you have the benefit of being part of a community that will support and protect you. For example, all Asian and Mexican immigrants I know can get, at any time, a job within their own community with a simple 5-second call. That’s just the kind of culture they have – one that just doesn’t exist outside those communities.

Not that there is anything wrong with either of those things – but these days, being an immigrant is far from putting you in a disadvantaged position, especially in comparison to Americans who had the bad luck of growing up in the wrong neighborhood.

It gets up to a point where it’s actually silly: among my students, I routinely find that the ones with the best level of English are the European ones that have it as a second language, because they had the benefit of learning it properly, rather than through what I believe is one of the worst education systems in the whole Northern Hemisphere – ours.

Talking about languages, do you know that, besides English, being able to speak either Spanish or Mandarin fluently is now a requirement to enter Stanford Medical, and a great advantage if you want to enter UCSF Medical?

Dude, you do NOT want to grow up in the US if you have a choice of growing up in Europe or Canada instead.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Business is an end to some people (I think it would be a lot of fun), but for other people it is a means. There are people that love fashion, carpentry, organizing events, writing, doing research, architecture, law, dancing, painting, playing an instrument, entertaining others, et cetera. If these people can’t find work they are passionate about, they can either clean toilets, or start their own business. Hell, if they don’t like managing it, they can always hire one of your MBA students (or more realistically, a BCOMM or BBA student) to do it for them.[/quote]

… and the money would just fall out from the trees? Get a grip. It’s a competitive world out there, and running a successful small business requires as much dumb luck – the right place, the right time, the right product – as it does talent and determination. And even if you strike gold for a few months, or even years, you can always be overrun by a bigger company with larger economies of scale.

And what are the realistic chances of a small business attracting a half-decent manager that knows about starting businesses when you’re competing with large corporations that will offer them six-figure salaries?

Then they shouldn’t have started a shitty business. Or they should have learned a thing or two about marketing and selling. Which most who start a business do not . . . which is their choice.

No shit you can’t literally make it “all by yourself”. That’s why you should seek out and associate with those who can help you and that you can learn from. If that can’t be done . . . seek out and PAY people to help you out.

And don’t be stupid enough to have a kid when you’re young. Duh.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Some other poster mentioned starting your own business. Most businesses fail within their first year. Your progress in life is not always just dependant on you. If there are others in the way of your place in a school, a specific job title or a promotion, how could anyone in their right mind blame the individual alone for how far up the ladder they travel?

I truly believe the most ignorant people around are those who think they truly “made it” all by themselves.[/quote]

It’s funny; in the Emile, Rousseau was worried about just this problem: that people who were rich would disdain those who were poor, seeing them as being in some way inferior; whether by laziness, stupidity, or vice. He made sure, therefore, to put Emile in situations in which he was struck by the unfairness of life: rich families who had lost their fortunes due to fortunes outside of their control, poor men and women who were industrious but not privileged by birth. This was all to inspire in him a natural pity toward them, which would incline him to kindness.

Emile knew that it was only by luck that he was born into wealth and could maintain it, and that the inherent unpredictability of the world meant that he might one day also have his goods and fortunes taken from him. Rousseau avoided the question of whether or not most people, on average, were really justly rewarded for their efforts, because that is largely beside the point. The important thing is that men should, when comparing themselves to other men, err on the side of pity and not of haughtiness, and on the side of good works and charity freely given.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
It’s funny; in the Emile, Rousseau was worried about just this problem: [/quote]

Rousseau is one of my personal heroes, and one of the thinkers that most influenced me. He created many of the foundations of modern social-democratic thinking.

Many of our founding fathers also expressed on several occasions their admiration for him, which is no surprise since the ideas he expressed, along with those of Locke, were of great influence to both the American and the French revolutions.

Here’s a little bit about him, for the ones that might doubt his insight:

Jean-Jacques Rousseau was born on June 28, 1712 in Geneva, Switzerland. His mother died shortly after his birth. When Rousseau was 10 his father fled from Geneva to avoid imprisonment for a minor offense, leaving young Jean-Jacques to be raised by an aunt and uncle. Rousseau left Geneva at 16, wandering from place to place, finally moving to Paris in 1742. He earned his living during this period, working as everything from footman to assistant to an ambassador.

One of the primary principles of Rousseau’s political philosophy is that politics and morality should not be separated. When a state fails to act in a moral fashion, it ceases to function in the proper manner and ceases to exert genuine authority over the individual. The second important principle is freedom, which the state is created to preserve.

Rousseau’s ideas about education have profoundly influenced modern educational theory. He minimizes the importance of book learning, and recommends that a child’s emotions should be educated before his reason. He placed a special emphasis on learning by experience.

He continued to explore these themes throughout his career, proposing in ?mile, ou l’education (1762) a method of education that would minimize the damage by noticing, encouraging, and following the natural proclivities of the student instead of striving to eliminate them.

It is quite amazing how, even 250 years after these books were written, the ideas within them are still as fresh as they were then – and how we’re still so far away from actually implementing them.