Hey,
I’m new to this Forum. Have been reading through articles on T-Nation for years and love the information on nutrition, training and recovery as well as unbiased opinions towards roids. My goal (like most others) is to optimize my body aesthetics. I’ve been training for 10 years. I started when I was 16, now I’m 26. In this decade of training, I tried several workout plans that all worked well although I found out that I have the best results when I keep the training frequency high (hit each muscle group at least 2 / week), the intesity high and the workout duration short (<1hr). I’m currently doing an upper body lower body split and train every day (Rest days when needed). I learned a lot about nutrition in my ten years of fitness experience as I read stuff about nutrition almost daily and experienced with a variety of nutrition myths and plans.
Next topic:
I am interested in trying my first cycle and have been reading stuff about it for years. Some of my friends that also approach bodybuilding in a very disciplined, scientific and classic way have tried steroids before. Interestingly, some have not noticed any significant differences while others have. The 16 week cycle one of the guys did who didn’t notice a change looked like this (he did regular blood testosterone tests to make sure the stuff he had wasn’t fake):
650mg test e / week
200mg tri tren / week
4000 calories coming from quality foods: 35% protein, 45% carbs, 20% fats (the calories he needs to maintain his bodyweight is 3000 calories)
3-day-split training, one day rest a week
According to him, the only things he noticed that is a pro for bodybuilding was more vascularity and he felt like a beast in the gym more often than when he was natural. What he noticed much more were the side effects: Acne, heart racing, trouble sleeping, increased sweat, increased sex drive. Before the cycle, he was 85kg. After the cycle, he was 90kg. However, a year before he started roids he increased his calories from 3000 to 4000 calories as well and started at 85kg and ended at 90kg as well so in his opinion the roids didn’t have anything to do with the gains because the bodyfat was also the same.
I looked at his cycle very closely because he has exactly the same stats that I have (same weight, same physique, same height).
So before I want to try roids, I’m wondering if it could be that they work better for some and not at all for others?
Cycle question should be moved to pharma section of this forum.
What I will say is don’t use tren on a first cycle, I don’t care what that Bill Roberts article says, tren on a first cycle is generally a bad idea, one should see how their body reacts to milder compounds first before, it’s like getting your first car, would you rather first drive a Toyota or go straight to a Lamborghini, at first glance it may seem like the Lamborghini is so much better but once the driver goes down this path they notice maintenance costs a whole lot more, it’s not suitable for a first time driver in general with terms of handling, features etc, and one can always get the Lamborghini when they’re more experienced (and rich lol) and the wait is worthwhile.
How you react to steroids is entirely down to the individual, some people require higher/lower doses to achieve the same results as others, similar concepts arise with TRT, people require different doses to achieve the same testosterone concentrations (say one guy gets to 500ng/dl on 100mg but another guy gets to 1000ng/dl, if both were to run 500mg/wk, and factor in they have the same concentrations of SHBG, albumin etc. the guy who gets to 1000ng/dl on 100mg/wk will probably put on more muscle mass) Other factors that arise are the amount of androgen receptors an individual contains, your baseline TT, response and tolerability of drugs, how close you are to your genetic potential.
You have a very nice physique for a natty btw, good luck on cycle
Thank you.
So basically you suggest to try out different cycles (obviously don’t start with a huge one) and see what stack, which dosages work for me? What would you recommend? Maybe 600mg/week of test e injected e3-4d? For how long? 12 weeks?
Also, the testosterone concentration was the same in both my friends. They used the same stuff and both had values of about 35ng/ml (reference value is 2.8-11 ng/ml ; in Germany, we use ng/ml for blood results). Still one made gains while the other didn’t.
Interestingly, their values matched exactly the ones made in this study: Testosteron Enantat - das große Steroidprofil
Scroll down to where it says “Pharmakokinetik von Testosteron Enantat” and look at the 5th diagram (article is in German language)
Basically, this diagram shows an almost steady testosterone concentration value of about 35ng/ml when 250mg test e is injected every 3 days.
So this makes me wonder:
does that mean one person can make significantly more gains than another person when both have the same testosterone concentration?
I can’t dish out advice for cycle ideas, I’m too young for that. However I can give you advice. If I read your post correctly, 600mg of testosterone every 3 days comes out to roughly 1,400mg of test/wk which is overkill for a first cycle.
The duration of time in which you run your cycle for will determine on dose, ester used and tolerability of side effects (if you have any). Short estered testosterone can be run for shorter cycles as they reach peak blood concentrations far quicker than long acting esters of testosterone. The price that one has to pay with this is the inclusion of every day to every other day injections which can be a (literal) pain in the ass.
As to your friends, were they using the same workout routine, diet, sleeping pattern etc. Many of these things will factor towards how well someone grows on cycle, other factors include genetics. Genetics are very important in bodybuilding and how one responds to drugs. One of the things people say that annoys the shit out of me is along the lines of “oh if I used all the gear Ronnie Coleman used I’d look just like him/better than him”. The truth is, even with drugs there is a set point as to how big one can get, the pros have amazing genetics in that they have amazing responses to both training and drugs and therefore get fucking huge. Look at how much gear Boston Lloyd took/takes, sure he looks much bigger than the average joe but he’s no Ronnie Coleman. So it’s possible one of your friends had a better response to the drugs.
No leg pics, but your physique is fucking great dude. There are plenty of people on gear who will never look like you. You should give classic division a go, but if you’re dead set on juicing then head on over to the pharma forum. Otherwise, we have very accomplished coaches here that would be a better way to spend your money, if competition is your goal. As far as I can tell, the first cycle almost always leads to a permanent and expensive lifestyle change. @The_Mighty_Stu
Thank you for the advice. I meant 250mg e3d. So about 600mg/week.
I’m not sure if I would want to start my first cycle with short esters. I’d rather give myself a shot every 3 or 4 days. Maybe if I a cycle with long esters would work for me, I’d consider trying short esters to see the difference. Is there really such a big difference between using short and long esters except for half life? I don’t see the point in spending so much money on roids and give myself a shot every other day when there’s only like 1% difference.
My friends have been training for years and are just as committed as I am so they used a nutrition and training plan that works for them. Same dosages on roids. Still one responded appropriately well while the other one didn’t notice a change in muscle building. It makes sense that genetics makes a big difference just thought everybody will at least notice a little bit of a differnce in muscle building when doing a cycle.
if you don’t plan to compete, I don’t see a reason to start using steroids. To me, the upside of steroids centers around being more competitive in strength sports (bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman, etc). The downsides are the side effects, potential health issues, and the very serious possibility that recover does not go well from even a single cycle, and you have to rely on TRT for life. If those are all acceptable possibilities to you, I suppose go ahead with a cycle. It wouldn’t be worth it to me just to maybe look a little better.
I was shocked to read that’s a natural physique. I wouldn’t have believed it except for the context of you asking about your first cycle. I agree with Flip 100%. Don’t risk ruining what you have. Go over to the pharma forum and you will see a ton of guys on cycle that don’t look near as good as you do naturally.
What do you guys think of my bodyfat % according to the pictures? 10%? I know it’s difficult to say and even high tech machines aren’t accurate but just wondering. According to bodyfat calipers, I’m about 5-6% which is obviously not right
I wouldn’t worry too much about the number. You’re lean as hell. I’m sure you could knock off a few more lbs to get to that diced/peeled/dry look, but without the plans to compete I don’t think the pain would be worth the reward. But if you need a number there are far more experienced people on here than myself who could give a more accurate guestimate. (@The_Mighty_Stu@flipcollar@robstein@EyeDentist )
Looking great, very lean for not being on a prep. I’d guess 8%. Calipers can be tough alone, my wife and I always measured each other during our prep and seemed accurate.
is there any number I could tell you that would affect how you proceed? I’ve never found any real use for knowing what my bodyfat% is, so I don’t try to guess it. I can look in the mirror to see if I’m getting leaner or fatter. You’re only lifting for appearance, so the mirror should be sufficient for you to make good dietary decisions.
I’ll also add that you’re about as lean as I would think you can comfortably be year-round. When you try to get much leaner than you are now, it can severely hinder gains overall. So I wouldn’t suggest dieting down more unless it’s just something you really want to do, or if you’re getting photos done or something of that nature.
^this sums up my thoughts as well. Calipers are pretty useless. Most competitors onjy realistically achieve 6-7% and almost everyone underestimates what 10% really looks like anyway.
You definitely have a good structure/bellies for this. I’m not one to run up to just Anyone with any gym progress and try to talk them into competing, but as someone who has been around the sport for a while now (pro competitor, coach and judge) I can honestly say that I think you would do quite well if you ever took the plunge.
Actually, I was talked into taking that first step myself many years ago by a certain well known competitor even though I was pretty content to just enjoy training for its own sake too.
Lmao - I said by a well known competitor not someone who wasn’t mentally able to diet down but spent 10K posts talking about how good he would be if he ever actually did
I read an interesting study once about bodyfat and physique. They found some people with higher bodyfat % actually had better looking abs than people with lower bodyfat %. So I guess the look in the mirror really is the best you can do. I was just curious about my number. I do not compete so I prefer to stay in a healthy bodyfat range and still have a shredded, muscular physique all year around. I have a weird way of determining when I should cut down on the carbs/calories but it actualy works lol: There are two veins at my lower stomach leading up to my six pack and when I can’t see them easily anymore I know it’s time to cut haha. Not sure if that’s really scientifically right but it works…
According to my researches, I might start my first cycle this fall/winter with a testosterone dosage of 250mg test-e e3d for 16 weeks. Will report back if I do.