Rasicm vs Bigotry

[pittbulll]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
vroom wrote:
Why do whites need to still apologize for something they had no part in and black people complain about that didn’t happen to them?

What fucking part of THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY AN APOLOGY did you not fucking bother to read.

What problems exist? And how do we remedy them?

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=887323

[/quote]

It is hard to respond to such a large statement.

On the other hand, people of color who refuse to buy into white reality – the “reality” of the U.S. as a “shining city on a hill,” or the “reality” of never-ending progress, or the “reality” of advancement by merit – often pay a heavy toll: they are marginalized, called “professional victims,” or accused of playing the race card.

Believe it or not white people that don?t buy into reality also are victimized.

Consider the common charge of conspiratorial paranoia hurled at any person of color, for example, who dared to point out the racially-disparate voter purging that took place in Florida in 2000 or in various places in 2004. White reality is privileged at every turn, so that if whites say something is a problem, it is, and if whites insist it isn’t, and then it isn’t.

I do not believe the votes in Florida were tampered with; they need to do something with their present system though.

In other words, privilege is not merely about money and wealth. It is not merely something that attaches when one is born with the proverbial silver spoon in one’s mouth. Rather it is the daily psychological advantage of knowing that one’s perceptions of the world are the ones that stick, that define the norm for everyone else, and that are taken seriously in the mainstream.

Privilege is all about money??.

But it’s more than that. Even more important as an example of white privilege – the kind that adheres to all whites, not just the rich – is the ability to avoid being stigmatized by the actions of others who just so happen to fall within the same racial group as you.

I will give you this one, in the white?s defense I am hoping it dies out with the passing of this generation.

[ALDurr]

[quote]singram wrote:
As a white man,I knew at a very early age that blacks had a disadvantage.You’d have to be blind not to know that.The way it,is that,just like poor white communities,poor black comunities have access to lower education opportunities,and are overun with crime.The ghetto’s of America are often overlooked by the government,and the fact that they let these gangs overun poor comunities is probably stealthy rasicm.Imagine gangs overunning Beverly Hills,they would definitly eradicate them.So they let the gangs and dope pushers continue destoying inner cities.Now,I’m not saying I can relate,because I can’t.But I did see this being played out in Memphis,Tn,my hometown.Memphis has the highest percentage of blacks out of any metropolitan area in America,so even if you live in the suburbs,you’d have to be blind not to notice.Often the inner cities are distrustful of cops,and cops are often really defensive because they know that their jobs are dangerous,which often leads to fucked up incidents.I don’t have an answer how to solve,people much smarter than me have attempted,and it’s still fucked up.But it’s not hopeless,in the town where MLK Jr. was murdered,there are black sucsess stories everywhere,black ownership is on the rise,more and more black owned business are opened every day,and,while it’s still segregated somewhat,whites and black co-exist peacfully,in fact,race relations are much better than what I observed in the north-east and mid-west.[/quote]

I am glad that you are aware of these things. It truly gives me hope that more people will pay attention and that things will get better. This is not sarcasm, this is real.

[ALDurr]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Professor X wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
vroom wrote:
Why do whites need to still apologize for something they had no part in and black people complain about that didn’t happen to them?

What fucking part of THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY AN APOLOGY did you not fucking bother to read.

What problems exist? And how do we remedy them?

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=887323

It is hard to respond to such a large statement.

On the other hand, people of color who refuse to buy into white reality – the “reality” of the U.S. as a “shining city on a hill,” or the “reality” of never-ending progress, or the “reality” of advancement by merit – often pay a heavy toll: they are marginalized, called “professional victims,” or accused of playing the race card.

Believe it or not white people that don?t buy into reality also are victimized.

Consider the common charge of conspiratorial paranoia hurled at any person of color, for example, who dared to point out the racially-disparate voter purging that took place in Florida in 2000 or in various places in 2004. White reality is privileged at every turn, so that if whites say something is a problem, it is, and if whites insist it isn’t, and then it isn’t.

I do not believe the votes in Florida were tampered with; they need to do something with their present system though.

In other words, privilege is not merely about money and wealth. It is not merely something that attaches when one is born with the proverbial silver spoon in one’s mouth. Rather it is the daily psychological advantage of knowing that one’s perceptions of the world are the ones that stick, that define the norm for everyone else, and that are taken seriously in the mainstream.

Privilege is all about money??.

But it’s more than that. Even more important as an example of white privilege – the kind that adheres to all whites, not just the rich – is the ability to avoid being stigmatized by the actions of others who just so happen to fall within the same racial group as you.

I will give you this one, in the white?s defense I am hoping it dies out with the passing of this generation.

[/quote]

You are absolutely right that we are all victims of this society. The only difference is that some are more overt than others, but it affects everyone. I too hope that things will get better, but in order to do that, we need a truthfull education of the citizens in this country. It needs to become ingrained as part of our American Identity that we will no longer accept any lies or twisting of the truth to benefit one group over another. I hope I live long enough to see that, or at least see it start.

[pittbulll]

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Professor X wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
vroom wrote:
Why do whites need to still apologize for something they had no part in and black people complain about that didn’t happen to them?

What fucking part of THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY AN APOLOGY did you not fucking bother to read.

What problems exist? And how do we remedy them?

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=887323

It is hard to respond to such a large statement.

On the other hand, people of color who refuse to buy into white reality – the “reality” of the U.S. as a “shining city on a hill,” or the “reality” of never-ending progress, or the “reality” of advancement by merit – often pay a heavy toll: they are marginalized, called “professional victims,” or accused of playing the race card.

Believe it or not white people that don?t buy into reality also are victimized.

Consider the common charge of conspiratorial paranoia hurled at any person of color, for example, who dared to point out the racially-disparate voter purging that took place in Florida in 2000 or in various places in 2004. White reality is privileged at every turn, so that if whites say something is a problem, it is, and if whites insist it isn’t, and then it isn’t.

I do not believe the votes in Florida were tampered with; they need to do something with their present system though.

In other words, privilege is not merely about money and wealth. It is not merely something that attaches when one is born with the proverbial silver spoon in one’s mouth. Rather it is the daily psychological advantage of knowing that one’s perceptions of the world are the ones that stick, that define the norm for everyone else, and that are taken seriously in the mainstream.

Privilege is all about money??.

But it’s more than that. Even more important as an example of white privilege – the kind that adheres to all whites, not just the rich – is the ability to avoid being stigmatized by the actions of others who just so happen to fall within the same racial group as you.

I will give you this one, in the white?s defense I am hoping it dies out with the passing of this generation.

You are absolutely right that we are all victims of this society. The only difference is that some are more overt than others, but it affects everyone. I too hope that things will get better, but in order to do that, we need a truthfull education of the citizens in this country. It needs to become ingrained as part of our American Identity that we will no longer accept any lies or twisting of the truth to benefit one group over another. I hope I live long enough to see that, or at least see it start.[/quote]

I think racism is on the way out, if we do not do anything to derail it. I personally have witnessed great strides in my life time. As far as capitalism I believe it is her to stay

[Lorisco]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
And if you do feel this is warranted, when will it stop? When will whites be able to stop apologizing for what they didn’t do and blacks stop getting upset at things that didn’t happen to them?

Could you please explain what “blacks” are upset about that did not happen? This statement alone implies that “blacks” just made up some problems out of thin air for no reason. Are black people as a whole insane? Please explain this comment for I do not understand.[/quote]

I meant about things that did not happen TO THEM! In other words, my great, great, great grandfather was a slave so that gives me the right to bitch at some white guy today about oppressing my people.

The point is that if neither person was involved in that situation years ago, why do we still have to either apologize for something that this generation didn’t do, or complain about mistreatment that this generation didn’t experience?

Now if a white guy is racists today then the people he affects have every right to call him on it. But otherwise, what is the point?

[Lorisco]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Why do whites need to still apologize for something they had no part in and black people complain about that didn’t happen to them?

What fucking part of THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY AN APOLOGY did you not fucking bother to read.[/quote]

Vroom wrote: “If some black people want to be pissed off at white people, as long as that doesn’t lead to unlawful activity, we’ve earned it. Holy shit, it is hard to fathom the level of mistreatment that took place if you go back just a generation or two.”

“We’ve earned it” sounds like an apology to me Bro.

So you say this is not an apology and turn around and say, but we have earned it! Really? What have YOU earned? What have you personally done to deserve a black person being pissed off at you for your treatment of blacks?

[Professor_X]

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
And if you do feel this is warranted, when will it stop? When will whites be able to stop apologizing for what they didn’t do and blacks stop getting upset at things that didn’t happen to them?

Could you please explain what “blacks” are upset about that did not happen? This statement alone implies that “blacks” just made up some problems out of thin air for no reason. Are black people as a whole insane? Please explain this comment for I do not understand.

I meant about things that did not happen TO THEM! In other words, my great, great, great grandfather was a slave so that gives me the right to bitch at some white guy today about oppressing my people.

The point is that if neither person was involved in that situation years ago, why do we still have to either apologize for something that this generation didn’t do, or complain about mistreatment that this generation didn’t experience?

Now if a white guy is racists today then the people he affects have every right to call him on it. But otherwise, what is the point?
[/quote]

Do you simply not understand that it is all related? If someone Jewish is deeply emotionally upset at a Nazi, do you think it is simply because of what they are doing today? Why would you or anyone else try to erase history if many of the effects are ongoing? Racism today is directly linked to it. It didn’t just pop out of nowhere as if it is completely disconnected from all past events.

Also, not one person has written about a need for an apology. That is worthless. However, you don’t even see the need for understanding what anyone else experiences as if it is a nonissue. Acknowledgement and then shutting the fuck up and continuing onward to avoid contributing to it would go much farther than any other act. However, you won’t even do that. You will instead tell me what I need to do as if I should have no emotion when those events occur again and again.

This isn’t about the past, but about the fact that I will experience it in the future (no doubt) and its roots began a hell of a lot longer in time past than simply pretending as if it just popped out of nowhere.

[Lorisco]

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
There is a common ignorance surrounding slavery. Because of this, people don’t feel the need to address or make amends for its influence on current society. In essence, if you aren’t taught about it, you can’t factor it in your sensitivity or decision making which creates poor conclusions about blacks at all levels of society. Since there is no accurate memory of its existence and its effects, it is easy to ignore or try to blow off this demonic process and say get over it and move on.
[/quote]
What good can come from continuing to bring it up? How can anyone change the past?

As far as living during those times or not, that is irrelevant in a culture or system where having white skin gave rights and privileges to one group at the expense of others. These advantages are passed on in the same way as the disadvantages are passed. Whites today are reaping the same benefits of the advantages that they had in the past. They started the game 1 yard from the finish line while we non-whites are still at the starting gate. Until there is a recognition of these unfair advantages and the imbalances corrected, the removal of the inequalties that prevent truth and justice for all Americans will never be achieved.

And yet per your own statistics, there is a large number of whites on welfare. If the system works so well for whites, why the hell are so many on welfare? You thing welfare is a “white privilege”?

The problem is that the system is set up to keep us all (white, black etc.) ignorant and so long as that is true, whites will still be sitting pretty. This system works so well for the white community that many are incapable of seeing how it doesn’t work for non-whites. Because of this deception, whites (and non-whites who have bought into their beliefs) are faced with confusion and frustration because they either can’t or refuse to understand what many non-whites are angry about.

In my experience it is not a system problem, but an individual problem. When some people treat me like shit for no apparent reason, I don’t view that as a system issue. I view it as an asshole issue.

If you think it is a system problem, tell me what part of the system is designed to favor whites that is not related to an individual’s prejudice?

“Why can’t the complete truth be told, taught and ingrained in our beings as part of our American experiences so we can work on ways together to correct the negative experiences and grow together as a nation?”

That is one of the first positive and productive things I have seen you write.

So how can that be done?

[Professor_X]

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

What good can come from continuing to bring it up? How can anyone change the past?
[/quote]

This is my last post to you because it is now clear that you are retarded. No one just brings it up out of the blue. Every time I am confronted with some type of racism it brings up the issue in my life and everything I am involved in. You can’t understand this for some reason, and it is simply because you don’t want to, not because your are incapable of doing so. These effects continue. They are not some unlinked happening for no reason outside of racism.

[bigflamer]

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
You are absolutely right that we are all victims of this society. The only difference is that some are more overt than others, but it affects everyone. I too hope that things will get better, but in order to do that, we need a truthfull education of the citizens in this country. It needs to become ingrained as part of our American Identity that we will no longer accept any lies or twisting of the truth to benefit one group over another. I hope I live long enough to see that, or at least see it start.[/quote]

There has been alot of discusion on T-Nation concerning race, racism, and bigotry. I’ts made me think alot more in depth about these issues that’s for sure.

Yesterday morning I dropped my son off at school(kindergarten) and I was thinking about some of these issues we’ve talked about and the perceptions we as a nation have w/r/t race. As my son was running off to have fun with all of his friends it was nice to watch all of them play so well together with no regard to race or skin color.

I was left wondering how long this innocence will last. Too bad that couldn’t last forever huh.

-Bigflamer

[Lorisco]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
And if you do feel this is warranted, when will it stop? When will whites be able to stop apologizing for what they didn’t do and blacks stop getting upset at things that didn’t happen to them?

Could you please explain what “blacks” are upset about that did not happen? This statement alone implies that “blacks” just made up some problems out of thin air for no reason. Are black people as a whole insane? Please explain this comment for I do not understand.

I meant about things that did not happen TO THEM! In other words, my great, great, great grandfather was a slave so that gives me the right to bitch at some white guy today about oppressing my people.

The point is that if neither person was involved in that situation years ago, why do we still have to either apologize for something that this generation didn’t do, or complain about mistreatment that this generation didn’t experience?

Now if a white guy is racists today then the people he affects have every right to call him on it. But otherwise, what is the point?

Do you simply not understand that it is all related? If someone Jewish is deeply emotionally upset at a Nazi, do you think it is simply because of what they are doing today? Why would you or anyone else try to erase history if many of the effects are ongoing? Racism today is directly linked to it. It didn’t just pop out of nowhere as if it is completely disconnected from all past events.

Also, not one person has written about a need for an apology. That is worthless. However, you don’t even see the need for understanding what anyone else experiences as if it is a nonissue. Acknowledgement and then shutting the fuck up and continuing onward to avoid contributing to it would go much farther than any other act. However, you won’t even do that. You will instead tell me what I need to do as if I should have no emotion when those events occur again and again.

This isn’t about the past, but about the fact that I will experience it in the future (no doubt) and its roots began a hell of a lot longer in time past than simply pretending as if it just popped out of nowhere.[/quote]

I don’t think anyone has not acknowledged that slavery existed and was a terrible thing. But while you are being angry over that, also be angry at those black slave owners as well. Everyone took advantage of the black people, even your own people.

So we acknowledge that and also that it does affect where you are at today. Or that it affects many still today.

Now as for experiencing prejudice today, many other minority groups experience that as well that were not first slaves in the US. So it is an oversimplification to attribute the “roots” of bigotry as from slavery alone.

So given that, since slavery was so long ago, do you think the bigotry you receive today is directly related to slavery or just bigotry in general that most experience at some point in their life?

I ask this because depending on the answer it will direct how we fix it and move forward.

[Lorisco]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

What good can come from continuing to bring it up? How can anyone change the past?

This is my last post to you because it is now clear that you are retarded. No one just brings it up out of the blue. Every time I am confronted with some type of racism it brings up the issue in my life and everything I am involved in. You can’t understand this for some reason, and it is simply because you don’t want to, not because your are incapable of doing so. These effects continue. They are not some unlinked happening for no reason outside of racism. [/quote]

You really believe that is true? You think that no black ever cried racism that wasn’t really true? If so, you are a naive bastard!

When I hear other Latinos cry racism that is bullshit, I call them on it.

When someone treats you with prejudice it brings up the past slavery issue. I get that. But the question is, how does trying to link someones racism today to slavery make it better NOW?

Like I stated before, many other minorities experience racism.

Slavery is terrible and racism is terrible. We have racism to day, but not slavery. So shouldn’t we focus on what we do have and not what we don’t to actually make it better?

Lastly, I know you will probably not respond, because that is your MO. You come in and make a few smart-ass comments and then leave when you have to actually use your brain and post some actual answers or logical rationale for your beliefs.

[pittbulll]

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
You are absolutely right that we are all victims of this society. The only difference is that some are more overt than others, but it affects everyone. I too hope that things will get better, but in order to do that, we need a truthfull education of the citizens in this country. It needs to become ingrained as part of our American Identity that we will no longer accept any lies or twisting of the truth to benefit one group over another. I hope I live long enough to see that, or at least see it start.

There has been alot of discusion on T-Nation concerning race, racism, and bigotry. I’ts made me think alot more in depth about these issues that’s for sure.

Yesterday morning I dropped my son off at school(kindergarten) and I was thinking about some of these issues we’ve talked about and the perceptions we as a nation have w/r/t race. As my son was running off to have fun with all of his friends it was nice to watch all of them play so well together with no regard to race or skin color.

I was left wondering how long this innocence will last. Too bad that couldn’t last forever huh.

-Bigflamer[/quote]

I have a biracial Grand Daughter, hopefully forever

[ZEB]

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Lastly, I know you will probably not respond, because that is your MO. You come in and make a few smart-ass comments and then leave when you have to actually use your brain and post some actual answers or logical rationale for your beliefs.

[/quote]

That’s unfair, I’ve seen him hang in there for many posts… of nonsensical reasoning. That is in fact his MO.

[Lorisco]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Lastly, I know you will probably not respond, because that is your MO. You come in and make a few smart-ass comments and then leave when you have to actually use your brain and post some actual answers or logical rationale for your beliefs.

That’s unfair, I’ve seen him hang in there for many posts… of nonsensical reasoning. That is in fact his MO.

[/quote]

That has not been my experience with him, but I’m willing to wait and see.

[vroom]

So you say this is not an apology and turn around and say, but we have earned it! Really? What have YOU earned? What have you personally done to deserve a black person being pissed off at you for your treatment of blacks?

Lorisco,

What is your malfunction? Did I suggest that black people were angry at individual white people?

I know that you’ve read these talking points somewhere, about how one shouldn’t be held responsible for something one didn’t do, and I know they sound nice, but they are deceptive and seductive.

Nowhere did I say I expected someone to be angry at me personally, nor did I say anyone had to personally apologize for anything. However, I stand by my words that people who are routinely discriminated against have the right to be angry.

Be a fucking man and grant people the right to be angry about mistreatment.

So, according to you, when a black man driving through a nice neighborhood is stopped, yet again, for no reason, and is late for an important event, perhaps a job interview, he should not be angry about that at all?

If that happened to me, I would be livid. I would be incensed. I would be so fucking angry at having my enjoyment of life messed with just because of some physical attribute that meant nothing about who I am. You are goddamn right anyone having something like this happen to them has the right to be angry.

Too bad it happens every day.

Again, because your reading comprehension is poor, nowhere am I discussing apology. I’m simply recognizing and accepting the truth, that such treatment happens, that it is very unfair, and that victims of it have every right to both be angry and to expect better treatment.

So, to avoid going back in history, which you obviously can’t fathom, simply because you are perhaps too young to get it, consider the issues that happen today.

If you deny mistreatment, deny that there is a history of mistreatment, deny that the effects are long lasting and you call for silence, then you are in fact part of the problem.

So, I don’t deserve any personal anger, but you might…

[Lorisco]

[quote]vroom wrote:
So you say this is not an apology and turn around and say, but we have earned it! Really? What have YOU earned? What have you personally done to deserve a black person being pissed off at you for your treatment of blacks?

Lorisco,

What is your malfunction? Did I suggest that black people were angry at individual white people?

I know that you’ve read these talking points somewhere, about how one shouldn’t be held responsible for something one didn’t do, and I know they sound nice, but they are deceptive and seductive.

Nowhere did I say I expected someone to be angry at me personally, nor did I say anyone had to personally apologize for anything. However, I stand by my words that people who are routinely discriminated against have the right to be angry.

Be a fucking man and grant people the right to be angry about mistreatment.

So, according to you, when a black man driving through a nice neighborhood is stopped, yet again, for no reason, and is late for an important event, perhaps a job interview, he should not be angry about that at all?

If that happened to me, I would be livid. I would be incensed. I would be so fucking angry at having my enjoyment of life messed with just because of some physical attribute that meant nothing about who I am. You are goddamn right anyone having something like this happen to them has the right to be angry.

Too bad it happens every day.

Again, because your reading comprehension is poor, nowhere am I discussing apology. I’m simply recognizing and accepting the truth, that such treatment happens, that it is very unfair, and that victims of it have every right to both be angry and to expect better treatment.

So, to avoid going back in history, which you obviously can’t fathom, simply because you are perhaps too young to get it, consider the issues that happen today.

If you deny mistreatment, deny that there is a history of mistreatment, deny that the effects are long lasting and you call for silence, then you are in fact part of the problem.

So, I don’t deserve any personal anger, but you might… ;)[/quote]

Vroom,

Perhaps you should get a stronger prescription for those glasses of yours? Nowhere in any of my posts did I state that anyone experiencing discrimination now (currently) does not have a right to be angry at whoever is treating them poorly.

The issue we were talking about has to do with past wrongs generations ago. Those are the deeds that should be let go at some point in order to move on to a new more positive perspective.

Now as for today, being pulled over simply because the color of your skin is wrong and would make me upset as well. However, being pulled over after driving crazy and blaming that on the color of your skin is also wrong.

The only way we can get to the root of racism is to honestly point it out and confront it, while also not supporting false charges of racism no matter what happened 300 years ago. Claming racism when it is not true just removes the validity from real occurrences of racism. So it gives bigots more leverage when a bogus claim of racism is discovered.

What I see in my own community is people very quick to scream racism, but very slow to confront someone who is falsely claming racism. That is wrong.

This is a big problem, and is even evident on this site. I have asked a number of people if they believe that false claims of racism are ever engaged in. And no one will admit to that.

So until we can get real about racism, check ourselves and others for the truth, we will never get to the real racism that must be stopped. It’s like crying “wolf”; the more bogus claims that go out the less people listen.

[vroom]

Lorisco,

I think the damage caused by real racism is orders of magnitude worse than the damage caused by false claims of racism.

Above, I have suggested that such things occur, and that they are in fact wrong (on the issue of false claims of racism), but that is not the real issue at all.

I see such issues to be deflections, excuses to blame minorities in general, instead of having to address the actual issue of discrimination.

As for the past, the present is the way it is because of the past. Of course, it would be great if we could just erase the past. However, it is up to the group wronged to forgive the past, so to speak.

Don’t take me wrong. I do understand a lot of bad things happened a long time ago. But while you want to pretend it never happened, there are people that are still recovering from the effects of those wrongs.

Blandly wishing things were better is not the road to wellness. Great wrongs are still being felt and instead of recognition of this fact, there are many people claiming it is unfair to refer to them.

Hiding, covering up, or ignoring the past is not the way to move forward at all.

The majority needs to realize that it has a legacy of misdeeds that are rooted in the past which have not been eliminated even today and the minority needs to realize that things are changing and getting better as time goes on.

You know what the finger pointing towards minorities, assuming they are alone are the cause of all their troubles, reminds me of? It reminds me of domestic violence, where the woman eventually believes it is her fault when she gets beaten.

I should have cleaned the place up. I shouldn’t have talked back. I need to know my place. I should have had the laundry done and the clothes laid out. I shouldn’t have refused to have sex with him when he was drunk.

When things have always been a certain way it can be very hard to see them clearly. I think that is the problem when it comes to race relations in the US.

Racial attitudes, and perhaps so on both sides of the fence, have become ingrained to the point of believing everything is the fault of the other, even if the other is traditionally the one that has been powerless.

This issue is a strange animal.

[Lorisco]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Lorisco,

I think the damage caused by real racism is orders of magnitude worse than the damage caused by false claims of racism.

Above, I have suggested that such things occur, and that they are in fact wrong (on the issue of false claims of racism), but that is not the real issue at all.

I see such issues to be deflections, excuses to blame minorities in general, instead of having to address the actual issue of discrimination.
[/quote]
That is my very point. If the minority community doesn’t stand up against false claims, the real issues of racism will get passed over. In other words, when minorities make a strong stance against false claims that gives those who want to blame minorities nowhere to go, no way to deflect or diminish the real issues of racism. They are left with the cold hard facts of real racism and no way to deflect it because they can’t use the bogus claim excuse because the minority community itself is already against those.

As for the past, the present is the way it is because of the past. Of course, it would be great if we could just erase the past. However, it is up to the group wronged to forgive the past, so to speak.

Don’t take me wrong. I do understand a lot of bad things happened a long time ago. But while you want to pretend it never happened, there are people that are still recovering from the effects of those wrongs.

Blandly wishing things were better is not the road to wellness. Great wrongs are still being felt and instead of recognition of this fact, there are many people claiming it is unfair to refer to them.

Hiding, covering up, or ignoring the past is not the way to move forward at all.

No one doesn’t acknowledge the past misdeeds. That is not the issue. It happened; it was done by many different races, including black, and it was shit! No question. So where does that leave us? At some point we have to look forward to changing the future.

The majority needs to realize that it has a legacy of misdeeds that are rooted in the past which have not been eliminated even today and the minority needs to realize that things are changing and getting better as time goes on.

You blame someone’s racism today on the past? That is a cop- out. Someone racism today is because they make the choice to be that way. They cannot blame their ancestors or some other shit like that.

You know what the finger pointing towards minorities, assuming they are alone are the cause of all their troubles, reminds me of? It reminds me of domestic violence, where the woman eventually believes it is her fault when she gets beaten.

I should have cleaned the place up. I shouldn’t have talked back. I need to know my place. I should have had the laundry done and the clothes laid out. I shouldn’t have refused to have sex with him when he was drunk.

I don’t see it like that. But there is something to be said for fitting in with the society you find yourself. You can’t go live in Mexico and demand that everything be in English. So everyone needs to fit in with the dominant culture to some extent.

[quote]
Racial attitudes, and perhaps so on both sides of the fence, have become ingrained to the point of believing everything is the fault of the other, even if the other is traditionally the one that has been powerless.

This issue is a strange animal.[/quote]

You are right. But it will take the honesty of both sides to fix it and to weed out the assholes. When you have minorities confronting bogus claims of discrimination and the majority confronting true racism, then things will get better. But it takes both. Minorities have a responsibly in this just like the majority.

[vroom]

You blame someone’s racism today on the past? That is a cop- out. Someone racism today is because they make the choice to be that way. They cannot blame their ancestors or some other shit like that.

Sometimes I don’t know where you get this stuff. What are you talking about?

However, many people who are racist, and I’m talking white people, don’t even realize it. They have rationalized blame on the victim such that it is no longer racism but instead some type of twisted justice.

I don’t see it like that. But there is something to be said for fitting in with the society you find yourself. You can’t go live in Mexico and demand that everything be in English. So everyone needs to fit in with the dominant culture to some extent.

Fitting in with society? Bullshit. In the land of freedom, you can demand everyone speak whatever langauge you like, and they are free to laugh in your face.

Again, your attitude suggests that minorities have to fit in, or else.

This again leads to the rationalization that minorities deserve what they get as some type of justice because they refuse to fit in good enough, refuse to work hard enough, refuse to take enough responsibility, whatever. This is precisely the battered wife analogy.