To begin with I wasn’t referring to lighter warm up sets but rather ramping so called working sets. Of all the responses so far not one person has been able to explain why warming up with increasingly heavier loads is any different to warming up with a constant load and increasing the reps.
60% of ones max at 10 reps is the same intensity as 70% at 8 reps as is 80% at 5 reps. So if ones 10rm is 200lbs how is ramping up by doing 160x10, then 187x10 and finally 200x10 any different, physiologically, than 200x6, then 200x8 and finally 200x10? Both represent an increase of intensity from light to medium to hard (approximately). [/quote]
Mr. Popular explained why. Did expect a mathematical proof and equations to back his answer up?
Here’s one:
10RM = 400lbs
((240lbs x 10 reps) != (320lbs x 5 reps)) to your joints, tendons and ligaments.
[quote]jay87 wrote:
To begin with I wasn’t referring to lighter warm up sets but rather ramping so called working sets. Of all the responses so far not one person has been able to explain why warming up with increasingly heavier loads is any different to warming up with a constant load and increasing the reps. [/quote]
If you had spent any amount of time under the bar trying each of these methods, it wouldn’t need to be explained to you. But for the sake of… well… something… how the fuck am I supposed to ramp reps if I’m working up to a 3RM? If you use 1,2,3, you’re going to be too fatigued to get to a true 3RM.
See, you’re arguing about complicated shit when you don’t even know the basics. Usually it’s more like 75%x10, 80%x8, and 85%x5. And again, you can argue that 160x10 is the same as 200x6, and even use an equation to try and prove it, but you’re not going to convince anyone here because we’ve spent more than enough time under the bar to know for a fact that it doesn’t work that way.
Let me ask: would you rather find out that your shoulder is injured while you’re under a 185lb warm-up set, or would you rather just jump to 250 and find out then? This question gets more and more relevant as you get stronger.
[quote]mr popular wrote:
This is what happens when people get it in their heads that bodybuilding has become rocket science, and people start using terms like “sub-maximal load” and “physiological impact” to talk about pushing or pulling a god damn weight around. Human bodies are not pieces of warehouse machinery that can be calculated like that.
Yes technically doing a warmup set of 200lbs for say 9 reps (with 1800lbs of supposed total load put on the muscle during the set) is the same load according to that highly unnecessary and completely arbitrary formula as doing 150lbs for 12 reps (1800), IF WE WERE INDUSTRIAL BULLDOZERS WHICH WE ARE NOT.
If 200lbs is your working weight, the reason you start with 100lbs and work your way up isn’t because of total loads and physiological blah blah suck it blah, it’s because if you go in the gym and lay down under your heaviest weight first you’re going to tear your god damn shoulder tendons or something.
If your connective tissues are cold, stiff, and inflexible, then your chances of being injured are high and your strength is going to be low. By warming up, stretching our muscles, and increasing circulation and focus we are literally making ourselves stronger so that heavier loads can be handled, and we do that by starting light and working our way up until we reach a weight heavy enough to invoke a fight or flight response at some point during the set (which is also a point where the overthinking crowd fails miserably in that they find reasons to choose “flight”)[/quote]
Good post…and saved me some typing.
Bottom line, you won’t be making much overall progress if all you are doing is trying to increase the number of reps in a workout but not increasing the fucking weight used…especially if you are weak enough to think 150lbs is even a warm up for a serious weightlifter.[/quote]
Even though many experts, Waterbury comes to mind instantly, clearly state that increasing the load is only one method of progression. Increasing reps is another. [/quote]
why don’t you try it and see if it works? i wouldn’t use this approach myself, but you gotta learn some way. besides everyone is different, no one can tell you what will work for your body and/or personality. bottom line lift some heavy shit, and next workout lift some heavier shit.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
This is a perfect example of someone who needs to stop reading articles and forum posts, and go spend more time under the bar before reading anymore.
[/quote]
BUMP to countingbeans! If you can lift a weight for 10 reps and you’re not done go until you are at muscular failure…increasing reps makes no sense if you’re not trying to increase the load in some manner or fashion, or you’re doing EDT training or something similar, and even then the principle is to control fatigue and stimulate the muscles through repetition acceleration and form, not a simple 4x10-12-14-16.
[quote]jay87 wrote:
Even though many experts, Waterbury comes to mind instantly, clearly state that increasing the load is only one method of progression. Increasing reps is another. [/quote]
As in… Bench-pressing 200 x 2 one week… and coming back the next and Bench-pressing 200 x 3 or 4 and eventually moving up in weight.
That would be ‘progression’ regarding reps.
But if you Bench-press 130 forever and only try to do more reps… after a point that is pretty useless and you won’t see any gains.
[quote]jay87 wrote:
Even though many experts, Waterbury comes to mind instantly, clearly state that increasing the load is only one method of progression. Increasing reps is another. [/quote]
As in… Bench-pressing 200 x 2 one week… and coming back the next and Bench-pressing 200 x 3 or 4 and eventually moving up in weight.
That would be ‘progression’ regarding reps.
But if you Bench-press 130 forever and only try to do more reps… after a point that is pretty useless and you won’t see any gains.[/quote]
What you described is definitely true. The problem with this approach is that someone who can only bench press 200lbs 3 times should NOT be going into the gym and loading up 200lbs on the bar and going at it. Call it warming up or call it ramping but you cant just sit down and bench your 3-5RM cold and expect optimal progress.
[quote]jay87 wrote:
Even though many experts, Waterbury comes to mind instantly, clearly state that increasing the load is only one method of progression. Increasing reps is another. [/quote]
As in… Bench-pressing 200 x 2 one week… and coming back the next and Bench-pressing 200 x 3 or 4 and eventually moving up in weight.
That would be ‘progression’ regarding reps.
But if you Bench-press 130 forever and only try to do more reps… after a point that is pretty useless and you won’t see any gains.[/quote]
What you described is definitely true. The problem with this approach is that someone who can only bench press 200lbs 3 times should NOT be going into the gym and loading up 200lbs on the bar and going at it. Call it warming up or call it ramping but you cant just sit down and bench your 3-5RM cold and expect optimal progress. [/quote]
[quote]jay87 wrote:
Even though many experts, Waterbury comes to mind instantly, clearly state that increasing the load is only one method of progression. Increasing reps is another. [/quote]
As in… Bench-pressing 200 x 2 one week… and coming back the next and Bench-pressing 200 x 3 or 4 and eventually moving up in weight.
That would be ‘progression’ regarding reps.
But if you Bench-press 130 forever and only try to do more reps… after a point that is pretty useless and you won’t see any gains.[/quote]
What you described is definitely true. The problem with this approach is that someone who can only bench press 200lbs 3 times should NOT be going into the gym and loading up 200lbs on the bar and going at it. Call it warming up or call it ramping but you cant just sit down and bench your 3-5RM cold and expect optimal progress. [/quote]
Sounds like a smooth ride into “Ripped Pec Ville”
[/quote]
you mean if I do that I’ll get supper ripped??? Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!
Progressing in reps is fine but ramping in reps just doesn’t make sense and defeats the purpose of ramping, which is to make your top set as good as possible. Fatiguing yourself on the same weight as your top set will NOT optimize your top set. Warming up joints and activating technique with progressively light to heavy weight will, which is why its done that way
[quote]jay87 wrote:
Even though many experts, Waterbury comes to mind instantly, clearly state that increasing the load is only one method of progression. Increasing reps is another. [/quote]
As in… Bench-pressing 200 x 2 one week… and coming back the next and Bench-pressing 200 x 3 or 4 and eventually moving up in weight.
That would be ‘progression’ regarding reps.
But if you Bench-press 130 forever and only try to do more reps… after a point that is pretty useless and you won’t see any gains.[/quote]
What you described is definitely true. The problem with this approach is that someone who can only bench press 200lbs 3 times should NOT be going into the gym and loading up 200lbs on the bar and going at it. Call it warming up or call it ramping but you cant just sit down and bench your 3-5RM cold and expect optimal progress. [/quote]
Your basic idea is essentially a long-known method called “ladders.”
Typically it is done by those training with emphasis towards performance numbers in strength or for athletic training.
It isn’t typically done with the reps you describe, but for example as
2,3,5,2,3,5
instead of doing 4 sets of 5 with a lighter weight (which would be required if the above ladder was done as heavy as possible.)
It isn’t a warmup or ramping method. It is done only when already ready to work with that weight.
I’ve used ladders many times: it’s an interesting variant. I couldn’t call it superior to more common methods for hypertrophy. It’s something to have in the toolbox rather than a be-all end-all.
The reps should be done with maximum driving of the weight.
If I understand or am guessing on the principle correctly, it is that the muscle responds largely (by no means entirely) as a function of the total workload, but the nervous system is not always equally ready to produce maximum output and the nervous system can be the limiting factor in training volume. In the above example, the workload for the muscles is the same as with the 4x5 but the nervous system isn’t taken to the ragged edge 4 times, but only has to give maximal performance twice, for which it has enjoyed some preparation in the preceding sets of 2 and 3.
Which is taking it to rocket science, which can indeed by important in for example Olympic lifting training but not really for bb’ing. It would be hard to find someone very successful in bb’ing whose methods are truly mind-numbing.
The same outcome of obtaining the needed volume while not taking the nervous system to the edge too repeatedly is accomplished with ramping. So it is not as if ladders are needed for this.
