Questions About Training

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Mondy wrote:
Right now my lower body program is

Day 1: Week 1/2/3/4
DL on 4inch platform 4x4/4x3/4x4/2x2
Cable Goodmornings 3x5
Single leg squat 2x10
Ab roller 3x8/2x8/3x8/2x8

Day 5:
Zercher Squats 4x4/4x3/4x4/2x2
Cable Goodmornings 3x5
Reverse lunge 3x6
Reverse crunch 3x12

Should I change the zercher squat to a snatch grip deadlift? Or would that be way too stressful on the lower back?

The snatch-grip dead is actually easier on the lower back than a proper Zercher.

If working on the dead twice a week, I would do oner day for top end strength and one for bottom end strength.

Here is the deadlift workout of one of my client who increased his deadlift by 100lbs and power clean by 50lbs over a relatively short period of time

DAY 1 - TOP END STRENGTH
A1. Partial deadlifts in the power rack (pin pulls), in week one you start the bar just above the knees and every 3 weeks you lower the starting position
Work up to a 3RM then work up to a 1RM

A2. Power clean from high hang (mid-thigh)
3-5 reps

B1. Functional isometric top half deadlift (from just above the knees)
4 x 9 seconds

B2. Power clean from high hang
4 x 1-3 reps

C1. Depth jumps
3 x 10

C2. Leg extension
3 x 6-8

DAY 3 - LOW END STRENGTH
A1. Trap bar deadlift standing on a platform
Work up to a 5RM

A2. Power clean from blocks (1’’ above knees)
5 reps

B1. Snatch-grip deadlift
Work up to a 3RM

B2. Power clean from blocks
3 reps

C1. Eccentric-only deadlift
Work up to the heaviest weight you can lower to the ground under control

C2. Power clean from blocks
1 rep

D. Goodmorning 5 x 5

E. Tire flips
3 x 15[/quote]

Thank you so much, but would you prescribe a similar workout if the sticking is at the bottom (about 3 inches off the floor)? or would you have two lower end strength sessions? I can rackpull 355 from my knee but deadlift only 315. Btw, what are the number of sets for powercleans?

Hey Coach,

I have been in a mass gaining phase for over 10 weeks and though I have put on some weight, I feel I am lean enough to undergo another (maybe shorter) phase of mass gaining before I start cutting.

The problem is that after using high volume training for the majority of that period, I am not sure whether or not I should continue with the high volume workouts or change to high intensity or low volume.

What would you recommend be a suitable change after using high volume for a long time?

Thanks a lot!

[quote]Mondy wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Mondy wrote:
Right now my lower body program is

Day 1: Week 1/2/3/4
DL on 4inch platform 4x4/4x3/4x4/2x2
Cable Goodmornings 3x5
Single leg squat 2x10
Ab roller 3x8/2x8/3x8/2x8

Day 5:
Zercher Squats 4x4/4x3/4x4/2x2
Cable Goodmornings 3x5
Reverse lunge 3x6
Reverse crunch 3x12

Should I change the zercher squat to a snatch grip deadlift? Or would that be way too stressful on the lower back?

The snatch-grip dead is actually easier on the lower back than a proper Zercher.

If working on the dead twice a week, I would do oner day for top end strength and one for bottom end strength.

Here is the deadlift workout of one of my client who increased his deadlift by 100lbs and power clean by 50lbs over a relatively short period of time

DAY 1 - TOP END STRENGTH
A1. Partial deadlifts in the power rack (pin pulls), in week one you start the bar just above the knees and every 3 weeks you lower the starting position
Work up to a 3RM then work up to a 1RM

A2. Power clean from high hang (mid-thigh)
3-5 reps

B1. Functional isometric top half deadlift (from just above the knees)
4 x 9 seconds

B2. Power clean from high hang
4 x 1-3 reps

C1. Depth jumps
3 x 10

C2. Leg extension
3 x 6-8

DAY 3 - LOW END STRENGTH
A1. Trap bar deadlift standing on a platform
Work up to a 5RM

A2. Power clean from blocks (1’’ above knees)
5 reps

B1. Snatch-grip deadlift
Work up to a 3RM

B2. Power clean from blocks
3 reps

C1. Eccentric-only deadlift
Work up to the heaviest weight you can lower to the ground under control

C2. Power clean from blocks
1 rep

D. Goodmorning 5 x 5

E. Tire flips
3 x 15

Thank you so much, but would you prescribe a similar workout if the sticking is at the bottom (about 3 inches off the floor)? or would you have two lower end strength sessions? I can rackpull 355 from my knee but deadlift only 315. Btw, what are the number of sets for powercleans? [/quote]

I’d still do one top end session and one low-end session. I found that if you are doing two low-end sessions, the strength gained isn’t directly transfered to the full range of motion.

For another similar program, look for my article ‘‘Deadlifting for stubs’’ or something like that.

The number of sets for the clean is the same as the movement it’s paired with.

[quote]Mondy wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Mondy wrote:
Right now my lower body program is

Day 1: Week 1/2/3/4
DL on 4inch platform 4x4/4x3/4x4/2x2
Cable Goodmornings 3x5
Single leg squat 2x10
Ab roller 3x8/2x8/3x8/2x8

Day 5:
Zercher Squats 4x4/4x3/4x4/2x2
Cable Goodmornings 3x5
Reverse lunge 3x6
Reverse crunch 3x12

Should I change the zercher squat to a snatch grip deadlift? Or would that be way too stressful on the lower back?

The snatch-grip dead is actually easier on the lower back than a proper Zercher.

If working on the dead twice a week, I would do oner day for top end strength and one for bottom end strength.

Here is the deadlift workout of one of my client who increased his deadlift by 100lbs and power clean by 50lbs over a relatively short period of time

DAY 1 - TOP END STRENGTH
A1. Partial deadlifts in the power rack (pin pulls), in week one you start the bar just above the knees and every 3 weeks you lower the starting position
Work up to a 3RM then work up to a 1RM

A2. Power clean from high hang (mid-thigh)
3-5 reps

B1. Functional isometric top half deadlift (from just above the knees)
4 x 9 seconds

B2. Power clean from high hang
4 x 1-3 reps

C1. Depth jumps
3 x 10

C2. Leg extension
3 x 6-8

DAY 3 - LOW END STRENGTH
A1. Trap bar deadlift standing on a platform
Work up to a 5RM

A2. Power clean from blocks (1’’ above knees)
5 reps

B1. Snatch-grip deadlift
Work up to a 3RM

B2. Power clean from blocks
3 reps

C1. Eccentric-only deadlift
Work up to the heaviest weight you can lower to the ground under control

C2. Power clean from blocks
1 rep

D. Goodmorning 5 x 5

E. Tire flips
3 x 15

Thank you so much, but would you prescribe a similar workout if the sticking is at the bottom (about 3 inches off the floor)? or would you have two lower end strength sessions? I can rackpull 355 from my knee but deadlift only 315. Btw, what are the number of sets for powercleans? [/quote]

Hey Coach,

On non-lifting days I usually do HIIT in the morning about an hour after breakfast (5 egg whites and 25g Whey Isolate). When do you recommend taking my PWO shake on those days? Right after HIIT? 60 min after? Or does timing even matter on those days? Thanks in advance for any response!

CT,

This may be a bit of a basic question but it’s something I’ve wondered about. Some coaches, and I think Tudor Bumpa is one of them, advocate an “anatomical adaptation” phase for complete newbies or those who have been on a long lay-off in order to strengthen the joints and prepare the body for further training. This phase usually involves 2 or sets of 20 reps. Is this time of preparation necessary? Usually, if a newbie asks about a training program I direct them to Mark Rippetoe’s “Starting Strength” and tell them to work on technique with an empty bar and then add weight gradually. BTW - I give out all of this advice for free because that’s the kind of guy I am.

Thanks, CT. Oh, and it’s about time they gave you your own forum. Kind of takes me back to the days of the old “Lair of the Ice Dog.”

Coach,

I am currently cutting and in order to preserve muscle and gain some strength and power am doing a full-body 4x a week with olympic lifts and 3x5 of other exercises. For instance, yesterday was:

Clean and Jerk 3x3
A1 Reverse-Grip Close-grip Bench Press 3x5
A2 Pendlay Rows 3x5
B1 Front Squat 3x3
B2 Prone Lower Trap Raises 3x10
C1 Military Press 3x5
C2 Zottman Curls 3x5

How’s the general structure?

I feel like I’m missing out on sticking to 3x5. With 3 sets per exercise, what would you recommend? And what sort of periodization would you recommend for this style of program? Would you suggest any CNS-heavy work (isometrics, etc.) or is that too risky when cutting?

Thanks

Thib,

In one post, you mentioned eccentric-only deadlifts. What is the correct form for these? Whenever I deadlift, to lower the bar, I essentially perform an RDL and then once the bar passes my knee caps, I “squat” it the rest of the way to the floor, so it essentially becomes pushing the hips back with a bit of knee bend toward the end. Would this be correct form for the eccentric-only reps?

Thibs,

In your deadlift for stubby guys one of the exercises is “A. Deadlift standing on an 8” platform", this set up would mean the bar is below my feet when I’m on an 8" platform! I vaguely remember an article mentioning it is very hard to maintain a neutral spine for deadlifting is the platform exceeds 4-6 inches. Do you mean 8 cm?

Much appreciated

Coach

To close grip lockouts from pins/supports:

The arms have to stay under the bar with elbows flared out so you rack the bar above your collar bond or with elbows close to torso, so you rack the bar above your lower chest.

What is the correct length to set up the pins?

Thanks

Hi Coach

I just started the program from your “Refined phisyque transformation”
 I have also been
reading your “Destroying fat” article, including others.
I set my program up like this:

Monday: Chest + Back Heavy
Tuesday: Lactate inducing workout
Wednesday: Free
Thursday: lower body Heavy
Friday: Shoulders + Arms Heavy
Saturday: Lactate Inducing Workout
Sunday: Free

Do this look fine, or should i Switch Thursday and Tuesday workout?,
so back and chest can fully recover?

I very much want to include deadlift or rumanian deadlift, but would you but this
on Back and chest - or lower body day ? Since it workout both back and legs.

Thank you

Coach,

Thanks so much for all this information, that deadlift workout looks great. I wanted to ask your thoughts on speed work. Do you use speed work yourself, for your clients etc. ( I am referring to repeated sets at 50-60% for the squat, bench and deadlift)? Also, do the power versions of the olympic lifts achieve a similar goal, is it worth including these as well as speed work?

Thanks very much for your time, hope all is well and best wishes to you and your family as always,

James

[quote]JJP wrote:
Coach,

Thanks so much for all this information, that deadlift workout looks great. I wanted to ask your thoughts on speed work. Do you use speed work yourself, for your clients etc. ( I am referring to repeated sets at 50-60% for the squat, bench and deadlift)? Also, do the power versions of the olympic lifts achieve a similar goal, is it worth including these as well as speed work?

Thanks very much for your time, hope all is well and best wishes to you and your family as always,

James[/quote]

There are several types of dynamic work, each having their pros and cons:

a) power variations of the olympic lifts with 75-85%
b) traditional lifts done with maximum speed with 45-55%
c) Ballistic lifts (e.g. jumps squats ) with 20-30% on the max of the corresponding lift
d) Plyometric an jumps with body weight

Thanks for the help Coach,

Do you have any workouts similar to the deadlift workout you posted to increase the squat, bench press etc. and what would be the best way to incorporate these sessions?

Thanks again for any help and best wishes,

James

Thib,

A while back you mentioned Dave Tate working with you on bench press technique, and you remarked afterward that you can see why lifters would tend to keep the reps low with such a style since it is such a total-body process.

When it comes to bench pressing, how much of the time would you estimate that a lifter should be pressing in the style promoted by Mr. Tate versus using any other style (such as the typical “bodybuilder” style of flaring the elbows, for example)?

And when are those times that you would still recommend using any of those other styles? For example, would you still use the “Tate” style for higher rep work? Should all primary pressing work be done in the “Tate” style? Etc.

I recognize that this style is likely not exclusive to Mr. Tate, so please forgive me if my calling it the “Tate” style seemed out of place.

Thib:

We know that strength training should be periodized with “stimulus phases”
and “recovery phases”.

Do you think that plyometric training and sprints (which are plyometrics,
I believe) should be periodized, or, due to the lack of load, can be trained
“balls-out” year round?.

How would you periodize that training (in simple terms)?.

Thanks.

Christian,
I’d like to get your opinion on something. I’ve been powerlifting for awhile and don’t plan on competing again for about a year. I’d been using westside/conjugate principles(set up) but I now want to switch to some bodybuilding for a break, some fun, and because it’s summer.

With most of my work having been low reps would you recommend your OVT, HSS-100 or I’ll Be Damned it Works program.
Thanks!

[quote]q99q wrote:
Thib,

A while back you mentioned Dave Tate working with you on bench press technique, and you remarked afterward that you can see why lifters would tend to keep the reps low with such a style since it is such a total-body process.

When it comes to bench pressing, how much of the time would you estimate that a lifter should be pressing in the style promoted by Mr. Tate versus using any other style (such as the typical “bodybuilder” style of flaring the elbows, for example)?

And when are those times that you would still recommend using any of those other styles? For example, would you still use the “Tate” style for higher rep work? Should all primary pressing work be done in the “Tate” style? Etc.

I recognize that this style is likely not exclusive to Mr. Tate, so please forgive me if my calling it the “Tate” style seemed out of place.[/quote]

I see two main benefits from powerlifting bench pressing:

  1. Reduction in the risk of injury to the shoulder and pec
  2. Lifting more weight

But there are also some drawbacks, the most important one being a decrease in pectoral stimulation.

HOWEVER, from my experience, very few trainees actually get a lot of pectoral development from bench pressing itself. Well, to be fair, the bench press is an okay pec movements for most
 but rarely is it more effective than DB press, DB incline press, bar incline press and dips.

So in that regard I would have no problem with someone training the bench and always using a powerlifting form.

The exceptions are those few lifters who respond exceptionally well to ‘bodybuilding’ bench press when it comes to making the pecs grow. But these guys are generally hard to find and are normally weaker when using a powerlifting style anyway.

But if you do the bulk of your bench pressing powerifting style, be aware that you might need to include more direct chest work.

[quote]Addweight wrote:
Thib:

We know that strength training should be periodized with “stimulus phases”
and “recovery phases”.

Do you think that plyometric training and sprints (which are plyometrics,
I believe) should be periodized, or, due to the lack of load, can be trained
“balls-out” year round?.

How would you periodize that training (in simple terms)?.

Thanks.[/quote]

From one of my articles:

Dumb Thing #6: Misusing Plyometric Training

I’ll start by explaining exactly what plyometric training is, as the term itself has been tagged to several types of training that aren’t true plyometric training (e.g. low intensity hops and bounds).

Plyometric training is also known as “shock training.” It was developed by Yuri Verkhoshansky in 1977. The objective of this method is to increase concentric power and force output by stimulating the muscles and reflexes via a “shock stretching” action preceding the overcoming portion of the movement.

This is accomplished by dropping from a certain height (typically 0.4m to 0.7m, although heights of up to 1.1m have been used by very advanced athletes) to elicit a powerful stretch activation, then jumping up as high as possible immediately upon landing (or projecting yourself in the air in the case of a depth push-up). The following pictures show the execution of a plyometric/shock exercise known as a depth jump:

It’s been established in both Eastern and Western studies that depth jumping, or shock training, can significantly increase power production and vertical jump height. This is mostly due to the following factors:

  1. An increase in reactive strength

Reactive strength refers to the capacity to rapidly switch from an eccentric/yielding action to a concentric/overcoming action. Lack of reactive strength will lead to a longer coupling time and, consequently, lower force and power production during the overcoming portion of the movement (Kurz 2001).

  1. Neural adaptations

Viitasalo et al. (1998) found a different neural response between athletes doing a lot of jumping and regular individuals when doing a depth jump. Jumpers were able to activate more motor units during the movement (greater EMG) and plan the motor command faster (higher and more rapid pre-action EMG).

KyrölÀinen et al. (1991) also found that 16 weeks of depth jump training led to better jumping efficiency. Schmidtbleicher (1987 and 1982) found that trained subjects were able to use the kinetic energy produced during the eccentric portion of a depth jump, while in untrained subjects this eccentric period was actually inhibiting instead of potentiating!

Finally, Walshe et al. (1998) concluded that the superiority of depth jump training over regular jump training was due to “the attainment of a higher active muscle state,” meaning that the fast eccentric portion of the movement increased muscle activation.

  1. Structural adaptations

Depth jumps have been reported to cause some muscle soreness and muscle damage (Horita et al. 1999). This is understandable since the eccentric force produced is very high, albeit rapid. This may indicate that depth jumps are a powerful stimulus to stimulate structural adaptations.

However, depth jumps don’t lead to significant hypertrophy. So the nature of the structural adaptations following depth jumping isn’t quantitative in nature, but qualitative: an improvement of the strength and contractile capacity of each muscle fiber.

Soviet literature gives the following guidelines when practicing depth jumps:

  1. The joint position upon landing should be as close as possible to that of an important sport action (Laputin and Oleshko 1982).

  2. The amortization phase should be short enough to avoid losing the elastic energy produced, but long enough to allow for the shock stretching to occur (Laputin and Oleshko 1982). Research indicates that the elastic energy from landing is stored for up to two seconds. So in theory you have a window of two seconds between the landing and take-off phase. However, to maximize the training effect you shouldn’t spend more than one second on the floor.

  3. The height of the drop should be regulated by the preparedness of the athlete. The heels shouldn’t touch the ground during the landing phase. If they do, then the height of the drop is too high (Laputin and Oleshko 1982). A height varying from 0.5m to 0.7m appears to be ideal for most strength and power athletes (Roman 1986).

  4. Depth jumps have a very powerful training effect, so the volume of work should be low, i.e. no more than 4 sets of 10 repetitions (or 40 total jumps spread over more sets), two to three times per week for advanced athletes and 3 sets of 5-8 repetitions (or 15-24 total jumps spread over more sets), one to two times per week for lower classes of athletes (Laputin and Oleshko 1982).

  5. Because of the very powerful training effect of depth jumping, it’s idiotic to perform this type of training systematically throughout the year. The shock method should be used in blocks of three to four weeks with at least four weeks between blocks (Roman 1986). In fact, some coaches recommend no more than two to three such blocks per year (Medvedyev 1996) and only when a rapid rise in power and reactive strength is needed to further performance gains.

Remember that every training method, regardless of how effective it is, will lose its effectiveness over time. Shock training is no different. If you use it year-round there comes a point where you’ll get no added benefits from it. However, by using short “shock” blocks you can give a quick boost to your performance. Since you only use depth jumps for a short period, you’ll get the same performance boost every time you use such a shock block.

The Pet Peeve

Okay, with that out of the way I can discuss the matter of my pet peeve: misused plyometric/shock training. As we saw earlier, shock training can have a very powerful effect on power production, but it’s also very stressful on the myotendinous structures and the joints. This method also leads to very rapid gains in power output, but the gains quickly stagnate and come to a halt.

My biggest problem is with coaches who use plyometric/shock drills too often, for too long, or with an excessive volume. What happened is that somewhere in the late 80s and early 90s, plyos were discovered by North American coaches and seen as one of the secrets of the Eastern block athletes. However, North American coaches are often seduced by the “more is better” approach and started to include way too much volume of plyo work.

The problem with many coaches and athletes is they don’t feel that depth jumping (and other shock training) is hard; it’s not very tiring compared to other means of training. Because of this, they feel they can get away with using a super high volume of shock training. Huge mistake!

With plyometric work, more is definitely not better. Quite the contrary, doing too much shock training will lead to structural damage which will lead to overprotective “safety mechanisms” (Golgi tendon organs and muscle spindles) which will actually lead to a decrease in power production, not to mention that the risk of injuries increases significantly.

Another related problem is using plyometric training for too long. Shock training is designed to give a quick boost in peak power production. It was used once or twice a year for phases of two to four weeks, not more than that! And it was quite effective when used that way.

Yet nowadays we see North American coaches use plyometric work year round with their athletes. This will diminish the potential benefits of the method. The goal of shock training is to provide a quick boost in power production. If it’s used year round your body gets used to the method as the quick boost effect is thus lost. It can also lead to some degenerative joint problems, especially at the ankle and knee joint.

Finally, another act of stupidity is when coaches use plyometric training during a season. This is beyond idiotic, especially if the sport involves a lot of jumps already (basketball, volleyball, track events, figure skating, gymnastics, etc.). A volleyball player might perform over 400 maximal jumps per week of sport practice; the last thing these athletes need is more jumping! The already high volume of jump and landing work can take its toll on the joints. Adding shock training is a surefire way to lead to a decrease in performance (best case scenario) or an injury (worst case scenario).

Bottom line: Use plyometric/shock training to provide for a needed boost in power production, not as a year-round system (e.g. perform a four week shock training block six weeks prior to an important event; stop two weeks before said event). And when you use it, don’t let the amount of fatigue or soreness be your guide to adjusting training volume. Stick to 40-70 total ground contacts per week.

Thib,
After a long time using PL style benching my triceps are absolutely dominant. Anything stimulates them. Now I often like to start a workout with a compound heavy movement and what has happened is that now when I do BB or DB shoulder presses for my deltoid workout, the triceps just take over.

What is the easiest way to work around this? The obvious answer is to start with some isolation work to awaken the delts but Scott Abel is of the opinion that one should pre-fatigue the triceps before the overhead pressing work. Doing isolation makes sense in that you’re improving neural activation to “awaken” the delts, but then Abel makes sense too. What do you suggest in this situation?

thanks,
DH