Questions About Fat Loss

Training
502

Good day Christian, thanks for taking our questions on here. Also thanks again for the great interview on autoregulation and ramping up. Although I feel like T-Nation may have caused you a bit of a headache by running the interview without having the full system exampling your techniques in detail, ready to go. Thanks for answering so many questions on such a topic.

Now for my question. It has to do with using your two forms of metabolic training one being the metabolic pairing system and the second being the principles you described in the reality show mass circuit. I know you mentioned that the mass circuit was used more for hypertrophy and strength endurance, I am just including it under the heading of metabolic training for ease of discussion.

My question on these two systems is how would one process using them? Would you add weight to your starting load each week, decrease the recovery time at the end of each circuit, or something else entirely. I suppose my two examples could both be used but I was trying to get an idea of what methods of progression you felt were the most efficient when using your two metabolic training methods.

One other question that has really been on my mind is the effectiveness of my weekly training structure, especially structures efficiency to maintain strength and mass while dieting. I have been trying to lost fat and get to around 8% body fat (right now I sit at 12%) I use a few weekly structures, but the one I am currently using looks like this.

Day !: Strength Day (using your ramping method)
A1 Trap Bar Deadlift (starting at 60% 1RM for sets of 3 and finally crapping out at 410lbs) took 8 sets
B1 Bench Press (same method)
B2 Chin Ups (same method)

After this I call it quits for my strength day. Then a day later I do a workout based on your metabolic pairing article (one movement of under 10 reps, then another under 15, then another done for time around 30 seconds).

A day after that I do a workout based on your Reality Show Mass Circuit or using a workout simliar to that based on your post here in this forum doing a circuit of exercises using 85% 1RM and keeping the weight stable until you canā€™t do at least 2 good reps with that weight.

On my off days in between I do mins low intensity cardio, soft tissue work, and blood flow work (very light weighted movements about 30% 1RM just to get the blood and nutrients flowing to the muscles)

Does such a set up to you, feel good enough to maintain size and strength while dieting or would I be better served splitting up my strength days and including more exercises for the upper and lower body?

If you felt splitting up was necessary I was thinking something like this

Day 1 Lower Strength (done in afternoon)
Day 2 Upper Strength (done in morning) something similar to doing a two a day, that way I get more rest from the upcoming session
Day 3 Off - recovery work and low intensity cardio
Day 4 Reality Show Mass Circuit
Day 5 Off - recovery work and low intensity cardio
Day 6 Metabolic Pairing ( done in the morning hours, using a slightly lighter load for all exercise as I fear doing anything
over say 80% would interfere with my leg training two days later) True or False?

Day 7 Off - either more recovery or completely off
Day 8 Repeat cycle

I know you have mentioned before that a training split really is far from the most important thing when building a training program, and I hope my question hasnā€™t really been on which split is more important, its really about to me, what should be included in my cycle given what my goals are (that being really more or less strength work for the lower and upper body). From there I can put stuff in really any order that makes sense.

Finally just so you donā€™t think I havenā€™t read through your thread :wink: I did notice another break down you gave for including all three types of training (metabolic work, strenght training, and low intensity cardio) where you suggested doing each type within every workout down 3 times a week.

I have tried this before in a similar idea posed by Tony Genticlore however, for me I have found that focusing on one area each workout really lets me give my all to that goal. I suppose I am not much of a multi tasker :wink:

Thanks again for all your time and help. Its amazing how much of your time you give to help answer questions here on T-Nation, and its very much appreciated.

503

Thib,
How would you plan around religious fasts, to not hamper progress?

504

Christian,

what are your thoughts on the ā€œbody fat set pointā€ theory?

Thanks

505

CT, not sure if you recall responding to my question several weeks ago about ā€œmaking weightā€ for a contest based on weighing over 220lbs. I posted up my various skin folds and realized using Poliquinā€™s advice for individuals with poor insulin sensitivity would prove beneficial. Additionally, I followed a keto diet for the first time and my body responded greatā€¦I did have to cut carbs to less than 30 grams and fat to 60 grams for 4 weeks straight to get my weight down.

The good news is I made weight and was in what most observers considered my best condition ever. I feel like I did sacrifice some muscle size to hit the number on the scale, however. Anyway, Iā€™m planning to compete again in about 5 weeks and want to see if I can present a better package now that Iā€™m not concerned about making a certain weight classā€¦just want to have fun and see if I can improve my fullness without the weight class restriction. Any thoughts on easing the keto diet for about 4 weeks?

506

Coach,

You made mention that you never really have any of you clients eating over 90 odd grams of fats per day.

Does this still hold true for someone of strict low carbs? Or will their intake be slightly higher, to ensure main fuel source?

As you have stated in the past, if protein is too much over fat intake, the athlete may simply become a protein burner. I have a feeling that this has happened to me, because my fat intake has always been a fair bit lower than protein which may have lead to less fat oxidation/fat loss.

Thanks for you time,
GJ

507

Hey Coach, if you could assist me somehow itā€™d be of great help

Iā€™ve tried the following combinations to lower my BF further but nothing is working. My goal has always been 8%

  • I got down to 11.5% BF and stagnated at this for 6 months on the poliquin/paleo diet followed to the letter, lifting heavy/hard with no HIIT/cardio. I decided change was necessary since fat loss had stopped for so long
  • Tried to add in HIIT for 15 min 3x a week, no progress so;
  • Changed diet and tried heavy lifting/working out with 1.25-1.5g/lbs protein good fat green carbs, no progress
  • Added in cardio (basketball) and two 15min HIIT session/week, working hard still as above, no progress
  • Tried get shredded diet which got me to 10.5-11% body fat at my best but lost muscle and then put the fat back on after it finished and i went back to paleo

Notes

  • Biosig says my main problem, by far, is growth hormone. My calf is massive and always has been
  • 21 y/o 6"4 225lbs (6"4 yet growth hormone is my problem?)
  • Fish oil / coconut oil / Alpha-GPC / Z-12 / thorne sedaplus(sleep) / german body composition training are no stranger to me.

Any guidance would be thoroughly appreciated

508

Hey coach

My fat loss has plateaued I am at 204.6 lbs at 13% 31 years old for the past 3 weeks, waist and belly button unchanged (36 and 38ā€™ā€™ respectively)
I am trying to figure out what to manipulate, itā€™s becoming psychological at this point to check each week with minimal changes. I would like to get down to 185ish that would be about 8% for me (it has in the past)
But this is the first time weight loss has been very very slow.

here is what I am doing

1: I am using the minimal protocol (1 of everything) and Surge Recovery during WO with hydrolyzed protein
Do I take that away or tweak it a bit?
It doesnā€™t make sense to me to change it I donā€™t think that is slowing me down at this point, or is it?
My lifts are great and it makes sense from a recovery aspect to stick with the protocol

2; I am doing 3 days of intervals on the ellitical for 15 minutes 30 fast 30 slow and 3 days on treadmill for 30 min at 8.5 % and 3.2 mph
Should I up the cardio or do more HIIT work mainly sprinting not the elliptical??
Training is the Get Jacked heavy lifting part (weeks 5-8)

  1. My diet is fruit in AM (apple or berries or kiwi) and the rest of the day is protein, veges and Fish oil and almonds. I am eating about 4-6 times per day counting periworkout. Most days are eat when hungry but stick to the plan. off days (2) are no carbs and minimal protein. mostly fat and veges. I do get home late so I eat supper with the family around 8pm usually salad and meat with oil and vinegar or meat with veges.

Any ideas there, at this point the psychological aspect of not loosing weight is getting too me and I am lost at what to change?

4: Lastly, I have been working on taking care of high cortisol very high umbilicus and iliac crest with PPS (400 non WO to 800mg WO days) and glycine (20g daily) for 5 weeks.
How long do you continue to use the PPS? Do I get tested again to determine it or is there a length of time that you take these to combat this and regulate it?

thanks for any info

509

[quote]brmnstl wrote:
Hey coach

My fat loss has plateaued I am at 204.6 lbs at 13% 31 years old for the past 3 weeks, waist and belly button unchanged (36 and 38ā€™ā€™ respectively)
I am trying to figure out what to manipulate, itā€™s becoming psychological at this point to check each week with minimal changes. I would like to get down to 185ish that would be about 8% for me (it has in the past)
But this is the first time weight loss has been very very slow.

here is what I am doing

1: I am using the minimal protocol (1 of everything) and Surge Recovery during WO with hydrolyzed protein
Do I take that away or tweak it a bit?
It doesnā€™t make sense to me to change it I donā€™t think that is slowing me down at this point, or is it?
My lifts are great and it makes sense from a recovery aspect to stick with the protocol

2; I am doing 3 days of intervals on the ellitical for 15 minutes 30 fast 30 slow and 3 days on treadmill for 30 min at 8.5 % and 3.2 mph
Should I up the cardio or do more HIIT work mainly sprinting not the elliptical??
Training is the Get Jacked heavy lifting part (weeks 5-8)

  1. My diet is fruit in AM (apple or berries or kiwi) and the rest of the day is protein, veges and Fish oil and almonds. I am eating about 4-6 times per day counting periworkout. Most days are eat when hungry but stick to the plan. off days (2) are no carbs and minimal protein. mostly fat and veges. I do get home late so I eat supper with the family around 8pm usually salad and meat with oil and vinegar or meat with veges.

Any ideas there, at this point the psychological aspect of not loosing weight is getting too me and I am lost at what to change?

4: Lastly, I have been working on taking care of high cortisol very high umbilicus and iliac crest with PPS (400 non WO to 800mg WO days) and glycine (20g daily) for 5 weeks.
How long do you continue to use the PPS? Do I get tested again to determine it or is there a length of time that you take these to combat this and regulate it?

thanks for any info
[/quote]

I got 2 questions for you:

  1. You eat almonds almost every meal? For me anyway one handful is roughly 2oz and around 320 cals. This can add up very fast. You might want to tally you total calories for the day using this: www.fitday.com

  2. You have just fruit in the AM? you need some protein unless itā€™s a low protein day then I believe the protein should be added in the last or last 2 meals of the day.

Try a Poliquin style breakfast of Meat and nuts. Alternate the meats (chicken, Bison, Turkey, Elk, Beef, etc) and alternate the nuts too (Pecans, Walnuts, Almonds, Hazelnuts, Brazilnuts, etc). I found this to be the best for satiety and body comp.

As well eating every time youā€™re hungry but sticking to the plan may not work. It didnā€™t for me :slight_smile:

Good luck man.

510

Thanks for the reply

That was a typo and yes it looks like that

No I only have fruit in the AM with Protein (eggs, protein powder)

Almonds are typically two times per day at my ā€œsnackā€ times about 18-20 of them

Low protein days are on my OFF days

Good eye though that really looked like I only ate fruit in the AM I meant that along with the protocol is the times i ingest carbs with my meals

Poliquin does no his stuff

thanks

511

could you go into more detail about the precontest diet your client was on that you described as pretty much MAG-10 protein? Did he take some Superfood/Flameout in the morning and then carry a jug of CH around all day to sip on?

512

Thib:

Iā€™m in the 10-12% BF, and have been a couple of years. Iā€™m weighting about 177lbs.

Acording to my calculations, i should be 7%bf by having 67 days of 500 calorie deficit, although i know that the human body is not some kind of machine ruled by math, that said, and by knowing that the 10-12% is kinda the stubborn fat, should i do the 67 days of dieing with that moderate deficit, or should i try a more ā€œhardcoreā€ aproach (like the ā€œget shredded dietā€)?.

Thanks.

513

[quote]milktruck wrote:
could you go into more detail about the precontest diet your client was on that you described as pretty much MAG-10 protein? Did he take some Superfood/Flameout in the morning and then carry a jug of CH around all day to sip on?[/quote]

THAT WAS JUST FOR THE LAST 10 DAYS. And only because he needed to drop 20lbs and had no bodyfat left to lose. So we had to cut solid food to empty is stomach content. Then he took laxatives and a natural diuretic (to flush out water). He was this close to having to take a colonic!!!

It is obviously not a diet that I would recommend.

514

[quote]BAdWolf wrote:
Thib:

Iā€™m in the 10-12% BF, and have been a couple of years. Iā€™m weighting about 177lbs.

Acording to my calculations, i should be 7%bf by having 67 days of 500 calorie deficit, although i know that the human body is not some kind of machine ruled by math, that said, and by knowing that the 10-12% is kinda the stubborn fat, should i do the 67 days of dieing with that moderate deficit, or should i try a more ā€œhardcoreā€ aproach (like the ā€œget shredded dietā€)?.

Thanks.[/quote]

Thinking of the body in linear terms is just plain dumb.

Your body adapts, and it adapts quickly.

First of all the body doesnā€™t have a staple metabolic rate. And those calculations to evaluate BMR are imprecise in the best situation. So basically, these formulas are giving you an approximation of something that is not even stable! On some days the formula might overshoot your BMR by 500 cals, on other days it could undershoot it by that same 500!

So believing that you can predict your fat loss based on a formula is idiotic.

Not to mention that calories are not caloriesā€¦ 1000 calories from green veggies will not have the same effect as 1000 calories from big macs! So you canā€™t simply go with a caloric deficit to predict fat loss.

  • Ingest NO CARBS except for the peri-workout period
  • Only poultry, meat, eggs, fish and green veggies the rest of the day
  • Set your protein at around 1g per pound NOT COUNTING the peri-workout period in which you should consume around 100g
  • Take around 12g of fish oil and 6g of essential fatty acids per day
  • Eat when you are hungry as long as you respect the preceding rules
515

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
milktruck wrote:
could you go into more detail about the precontest diet your client was on that you described as pretty much MAG-10 protein? Did he take some Superfood/Flameout in the morning and then carry a jug of CH around all day to sip on?

THAT WAS JUST FOR THE LAST 10 DAYS. And only because he needed to drop 20lbs and had no bodyfat left to lose. So we had to cut solid food to empty is stomach content. Then he took laxatives and a natural diuretic (to flush out water). He was this close to having to take a colonic!!!

It is obviously not a diet that I would recommend.[/quote]

jesus, sounds rough. cant I just take lipozene?

516

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
dphillips wrote:
Coach Thibs,

I know in the past you have had body comp. clients do two full workouts in a week of only metabolic pairings. Do you still think that is an effective method?

THANKS IN ADVANCE! YOUR LOCKER ROOM KICKS ASS!

I use a somewhat similar tactic with females who want to drop down fat fastā€¦

We do only metabolic work (a circuit really) for the lower body, 3 times a week, and end the workout with upper body work performed normally.

E.g.

DAY 1 - Squat pattern
A1. Back squat 4-6 reps
A2. Power clean 4-6 reps
A3. Jump squat (30% bodyweight) 10-12 reps
A4. Vertical jumps or box jumps 15-20 reps
A5. Bodyweight only squat max in 30 seconds

Performed 3-4 times

Then a Chest/Back pairing is done for 3-4 sets of regular lifting

DAY 2 - Bend over pattern
A1. Romanian deadlift 4-6 reps
A2. Power snatch 4-6 reps
A3. Jump goodmorning(30% bodyweight) 10-12 reps
A4. Broad jumps 15-20 reps
A5. Reverse hyper max in 30 sec

Performed 3-4 times

Than two shoulders exercises are performed

DAY 3 - Split pattern
A1. Split squat 4-6 reps/leg
A2. Split power clean 4-6 reps/side
A3. Jump lunges (15% bodyweight) 10-12 reps total
A4. Step-up jumps 15-20 reps total
A5. Mountain climber or high knees running max in 30 seconds

Performed 3-4 times

Than a biceps/triceps pairing is performed of 3-4 sets

The fourth day is an energy system day:

10 minutes low-intensity
Abs
10 minutes intervals
Abs
20 minutes low-intensity[/quote]

Hey Thibs,
What would be the rest intervals for the circuits? Would they be after the circuit or short rest between exercises?
Thanks

517

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

  • Ingest NO CARBS except for the peri-workout period
  • Only poultry, meat, eggs, fish and green veggies the rest of the day
  • Set your protein at around 1g per pound NOT COUNTING the peri-workout period in which you should consume around 100g
  • Take around 12g of fish oil and 6g of essential fatty acids per day
  • Eat when you are hungry as long as you respect the preceding rules[/quote]

Hi Coach

Following on from the guidelines provided above, am I right to assume these additional points:

  • 60-90g fat per day
  • 100-110g CHO para-workout
  • 50g CHO on non-training/cardio/ESW, etc day
  • adjust all of the above according to progress

Also, do you believe protein pulsing would be even more beneficial during negative calorie phases or is there no difference? I understand lower fat consumption may aid rapid protein absorption, which makes me think pulsing might be optimum during fat loss programmes.

Any feedback would b greatly appreciated.

JB

518

CTā€¦
I know you talk alot about spiking the insulin and have carbs right before the workout more than afterā€¦

I was a a chfa show in toronto recently and personally talked to Sam Grassi (greens + guy) about this topic and then Brad King. Im sure you know them. They BOTH said to have only a little protein before the workout and NOT to have carbs. thye both said have the carbs after the workout.

If i can rmeebr there reason was because you want to deplete the glucose stores so your bosy can burn the fat instead of glucose first. Something like that. But anyways ya they both said to have the high glycemic carbs after my workout. Doesnt matter if im trying to bulk up or lose fat. What do you say? And whats your theory on spike the insulin BEFORE, which is against both of these huge experts.

519

Christian,

i am following the protocol with Surge Workout Fuel and Surge Recovery and CH. I am low carb the rest of the day. I want to incorporate sprint work on my off days or non leg days.

To maximize fat loss, should i still take 1 or 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel before + 20g CH during my sprint sessions?

thanks

520

[quote]mav31 wrote:
Christian,

i am following the protocol with Surge Workout Fuel and Surge Recovery and CH. I am low carb the rest of the day. I want to incorporate sprint work on my off days or non leg days.

To maximize fat loss, should i still take 1 or 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel before + 20g CH during my sprint sessions?

thanks[/quote]

i kind of had that same question. i have read that you dont recommend HIIT sprinting if you are on a low carbs diet (i.e. only carbs para workout on workout days/ only around 50 grams carbs on non workout days). well i have 3 non workout in which 2 i would like to be days where i do HIIT. since HIIT primarily cuts into muscle when on a low carb diet, would taking 3 scoops of workout fuel 30 min before negate the HIIT having such a negative effect on the muscles?

i have also assumed some thigns from reading the thread and have set up my diet to look like this. My goal is to drop body fat while maintaining muscle mass (if i gain any, i know it wont be alot, seeing as how its very hard to do both at the same time)

workout days:

1.25 grams of protein per body weight (doesnt include peri-workout, but does include all other protein pulses during the day)
150 carbs (all during Peri workout) and for the rest of the day green veggies.
70 grams of fat a day (this includes the 9 grams from the FINiBAR)

Non workout days:(or HIIT days if suggested/ also acting as control day)

1.5 grams protein per bodyweight
50 carbs (either fruit during breakfast, or 2 scoops of Surge Workout Fuel if you reccommend that i can still do HIIT) per day
60 grams of fat ( i of course am getting my fish oil, cla, Fa3, flax, nuts, etc.)

Off days:

i make sunday my low protein day - 60 grams protein (last 2 meals), 350 carbs (from fruits and veggies, should i also have some complex carbs?), 30 grams fat

so HIIT 2 times a week is what i am doing now. should i stop and just do steady state in the mornings? if so, how many times a week? i am 152 pounds at around 10-12 percent body fat. sometimes its hard to tell because i used to be 5 foot 4 and weigh 200 pounds (before i started training) so i have some extra skin. but i can see my abs most of the time (sometimes water retention blurs it slightly) but i always have trouble with bottom abs/ love handles. i know i am very light, so some might ask why i am even worrying about cutting up, but i saw that you reccommend that in order to become more insulin sensitive allowing the protocol to work better, you suggest lower body fat.

i apologize for the lengthiness and i really do appreciate any feed back as to what i might be doing wrongā€¦ or right?

thanks a million.

cant thank you enough

521

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Thinking of the body in linear terms is just plain dumb.

Your body adapts, and it adapts quickly.

First of all the body doesnā€™t have a staple metabolic rate. And those calculations to evaluate BMR are imprecise in the best situation. So basically, these formulas are giving you an approximation of something that is not even stable! On some days the formula might overshoot your BMR by 500 cals, on other days it could undershoot it by that same 500!

this question may be a bit amateur but does the body adapt to cardio in the sense that one session becomes slightly less effective than the next?

that was dumbā€¦ meant that in the sense that the heart adapts to activity or the entire body becomes more efficient at a specific type/exercise