Questions About Fat Loss

Christian_Thibaudeau · August 15, 2009, 7:32pm

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Keven (the other I, BB guy) is competing next weekend and has been on low-carbs (50g or less/day) for 3 weeks, with no cheat. The rest of his prep he had an average of 250-300g of carbs/day (all peri-workout) and also cheated once a week (1 meal) up to 3 weeks out.

I personally need to stay low carbs to get shredded. I can use up to 100-150g per day (all peri-workout) and do fine. Under 100g I lose fat faster but my upper body flattens out.

Hey Coach, I have a question somewhat related to this that I hope you can help me with. I have recently come off a cut similar to what you mentioned Keven was on and how you have dieted in the past. Basically 6 days a week with very low carbs (only trace amounts), moderate fat (started at ~100, dropped down to 75g) and moderate protein (1g/lb), with a 1 day large carb up.

4 weeks ago or so I started adding in carbs again keeping fat lower (around 75g/day), with carbs being between 100-150g/day and protein bumped up to 1.5g/lb. Results were pretty good which I assumed was mainly from the initial increase in glycogen as well as from the increased protein intake. Now, however, I have no idea what is going on and that is driving me crazy. 2 weeks ago, in order to make lean gains as best I could, I started with a low carb/high fat approach with a 1 day carb up (only ~350g)…that which has often been touted by you and others as a good way to gain for people who store fat easily. My intake was bumped up 235g protein and 180g fat with trace carbs (2700 calories). It has been about 2 weeks since this and my skinfold measurements have shot up! After the first 9 days I gained almost 2lb. which, by the measurements, was basically all fat. This week, 6 days later, I am the same weight but again abdominal and chest skinfolds have shot up saying I’ve lost muscle and gained fat (and as I said this was 6 days after the first 9 so water/glycogen was already low the week before). Strength has been increasing making this even harder for me to understand. Waistline up 1/4in. Fat gain noticeable.

Like I said whats killing me is I just don’t understand this, I have no idea why a low carb/high fat approach would be having this bad of an effect after what I’ve learned on the subject. Could you help clear this up?

Thanks a lot
[/quote]

Your fat intake is too high. Several people simply can’t metabolize fat well. I do not use more than 90g of fat per day with any client. In fact, I stay at around 80g most of the time. I would look into adding my peri-workout protocol and the rest of the day you ingest 1.25g of protein per pound, around 50-75g of carbs and 70-80g of fat.

Clark_Banner · August 15, 2009, 8:01pm

Alright I finally got the notion to get up and ask a question. I have consistently read this thread and I am learning a lot I may have missed this. But I am looking for a general calculation for the right amount of calories. I’m currently 220 lbs at around 27% bf. Terrible I know. Without any real concern for weight, meaning less is fine, all I want to do is cut down to single digits. The sooner the better, but time is not really an issue.

Just recently started formatting a diet and I have been keeping my calories around 2000 and my carbs around 60g. I have not watched the fat, I read that might not be a good thing. So now I am going to incorporate the (1.25 p, 50-75g c, 70-80g f) so based on that what would be the proper calculation for calories? HIIT 4x week, Weights 3x week.

system · August 15, 2009, 8:42pm

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Your fat intake is too high. Several people simply can’t metabolize fat well. I do not use more than 90g of fat per day with any client. In fact, I stay at around 80g most of the time. I would look into adding my peri-workout protocol and the rest of the day you ingest 1.25g of protein per pound, around 50-75g of carbs and 70-80g of fat.[/quote]

I’m a little confused. I thought you had said in the past that individuals with endomorphic tendancies with do better with higher fat?

[i]As a rule of thumb, fatter individuals and natural endomorphs (“husky people”) will respond better to the low-carb approach

Low-carbs:

â?¢ Caloric intake is set at 10 to 20% above maintenance (DEE)

â?¢ Protein is set at around 1.25 to 1.5 grams per pound of body weight

â?¢ Fat comprise 90 to 100% of the energetic nutrients

â?¢ Carbs comprise 10% or less of the energetic nutrients

If somebody is 200 pounds and has a DEE of 3000 calories it gives him:

â?¢ A caloric intake of 3300 to 3600 calories

â?¢ 250 to 300 grams of protein (200 pounds x 1.25 to 1.5) for 1000 to 1200 calories

â?¢ 2000 to 2600 calories to “spend” in energetic nutrients (caloric intake minus protein calories)

â?¢ Fat would be set at 1800 to 2600 calories (200 to 290 grams)

â?¢ Carbs would be under 30 grams[/i]

Now I completely understand that you have improved upon your coaching. However, this wasn’t very long ago and surely you had plenty of clients and yourself getting good results as you thought this was optimal at the time right?

I would not mind taking fat down and increasing protein, however, I unfortunately cannot do the peri-workout protocol as I do not have the money and will be in college in a week with mainly cafeteria food (which with high fat/protein is doable given the food options, but there aren’t many healthy carb choices there).

Sorry if I sound at all argumentative here, that’s not my intent. Thanks again.

Christian_Thibaudeau · August 15, 2009, 9:24pm

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Your fat intake is too high. Several people simply can’t metabolize fat well. I do not use more than 90g of fat per day with any client. In fact, I stay at around 80g most of the time. I would look into adding my peri-workout protocol and the rest of the day you ingest 1.25g of protein per pound, around 50-75g of carbs and 70-80g of fat.

I’m a little confused. I thought you had said in the past that individuals with endomorphic tendancies with do better with higher fat?

[i]As a rule of thumb, fatter individuals and natural endomorphs (“husky people”) will respond better to the low-carb approach

Low-carbs:

Ã¢?Â¢ Caloric intake is set at 10 to 20% above maintenance (DEE)

Ã¢?Â¢ Protein is set at around 1.25 to 1.5 grams per pound of body weight

Ã¢?Â¢ Fat comprise 90 to 100% of the energetic nutrients

Ã¢?Â¢ Carbs comprise 10% or less of the energetic nutrients

If somebody is 200 pounds and has a DEE of 3000 calories it gives him:

Ã¢?Â¢ A caloric intake of 3300 to 3600 calories

Ã¢?Â¢ 250 to 300 grams of protein (200 pounds x 1.25 to 1.5) for 1000 to 1200 calories

Ã¢?Â¢ 2000 to 2600 calories to “spend” in energetic nutrients (caloric intake minus protein calories)

Ã¢?Â¢ Fat would be set at 1800 to 2600 calories (200 to 290 grams)

Ã¢?Â¢ Carbs would be under 30 grams[/i]

Now I completely understand that you have improved upon your coaching. However, this wasn’t very long ago and surely you had plenty of clients and yourself getting good results as you thought this was optimal at the time right?

I would not mind taking fat down and increasing protein, however, I unfortunately cannot do the peri-workout protocol as I do not have the money and will be in college in a week with mainly cafeteria food (which with high fat/protein is doable given the food options, but there aren’t many healthy carb choices there).

Sorry if I sound at all argumentative here, that’s not my intent. Thanks again.
[/quote]

Nobody is purely endomorphic, ectomorphic or mesomorphic. Everybody has various ‘quantities’ of each. And even if one would be a pure somatotype there might be deviations from what metabolic type it should be.

That’s why you always need to fine tune depending on what works for your body. And if that is not enough, an individual can change in his metabolic type during his life. For example, I used to have to go down below 50g of carbs per day to get lean. Now I can go up to 150 and even 200g an get just as lean. Heck I can eat 300-350g on a regular basis and maintain my body fat.

That is why YOU SHOULD NEVER READ AN ARTICLE AND APPLY IT BLINDLY. Even if I wrote it! Understand the science behind it and apply it to your individual situation.

system · August 15, 2009, 10:07pm

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Nobody is purely endomorphic, ectomorphic or mesomorphic. Everybody has various ‘quantities’ of each. And even if one would be a pure somatotype there might be deviations from what metabolic type it should be.

That’s why you always need to fine tune depending on what works for your body. And if that is not enough, an individual can change in his metabolic type during his life. For example, I used to have to go down below 50g of carbs per day to get lean. Now I can go up to 150 and even 200g an get just as lean. Heck I can eat 300-350g on a regular basis and maintain my body fat.

That is why YOU SHOULD NEVER READ AN ARTICLE AND APPLY IT BLINDLY. Even if I wrote it! Understand the science behind it and apply it to your individual situation.
[/quote]

OK thanks. Given my situation, how low do you think I should bring fat down to if I’m still looking to gain muscle? I know you said below 90g above but that was assuming I could use your peri-workout protocol which I currently unfortunately cannot. Assuming at least staying true to recommendations of going low carb with a structure of roughly 5low/2high or 6low/1high how low could/should I bring down fat and how high could I bring protein to see the best results in your opinion?

ArcticAce · August 16, 2009, 1:15pm

Thib,

Since fat loss (or minimizing fat gain during a muscle-building phase) is a primary focus for many, do you always use BioSignature testing to determine a person’s genetic tolerance to carbs and to assess how that client is handling the current amount of carbs in the diet? Or do you only use this testing in specific cases?

And if you do use it with each person you work with, do you simply consider these general “starting” points from which to adjust carbohydrate intake, or do you basically know by now that if a given set of readings show you something, then a certain level of carbs is probably optimal for that individual (with that level being readjusted based upon future testing)?

lock_solid · August 16, 2009, 2:23pm

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
lock_solid wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
lock_solid wrote:
Thibs

Quick q for ya. What is the general read you get when measuring a shredded national level or pro bodybuilder when you perform a bio sig read on them? I ask out of pure curiosity as im guessing for the most conditioned, all folds are sub 3mm.

I have have a contest in 4.5 weeks and can safely say all reads will go below 5mm for it (bar sub scap which may not co-operate but will def fall below 6). On my last read, 4 sites were sub 3 anyway and that was well over a week ago.
Anyway dude, thanks for your time.
This q is open to anyone needless to say.

Lock

Top less bodybuilders in contest shape have folds than are normally 2mm or under. Although rarely will you see someone with less than 1.7mm on a site as the skin is generally this thick.

Thibs

Yeah i thought as much. Just one other q for ya. Do you believe the only way to get down to that extreme is through a zero carb and reload protocol? What do you believe are the most effective methods?

Many thanks

Lock

It depends on the guy. Sebastien dropped down to that level and still had 150g of carbs in his weekly diet and stopped cheats/carbs load only 2 weeks out (you can see his pic in his avatar… his “name” is DaFreak). During his prep he consumed around 350-400g of carbs per day (all peri-workout). He also had a cheat day up to 2 weeks out.

Keven (the other I, BB guy) is competing next weekend and has been on low-carbs (50g or less/day) for 3 weeks, with no cheat. The rest of his prep he had an average of 250-300g of carbs/day (all peri-workout) and also cheated once a week (1 meal) up to 3 weeks out.

I personally need to stay low carbs to get shredded. I can use up to 100-150g per day (all peri-workout) and do fine. Under 100g I lose fat faster but my upper body flattens out.

The difference is that Sebastien handles carbs very well and does’t bloat, Keven is slightly less insulin sensitive and tend to gain a lot of water.

The moral is that everybody is different and you sometimes need to experiment a lot to find the perfect recipe for you.

They did cardio (intervals) twice a day for a good proportion of their prep.

Also keep in mind that their prep was 16 weeks. I prefer a longer prep to go down slowly and avoid losing muscle.

[/quote]

Thibs

Thank you for that response. It really cleared up quite alot for me. My carbs have been 300g on average days throughout prep and are still. Skinfolds are continuing to drop steadily.

“If it aint broke, dont fix it” as they say.

Good luck with your own training dude. Looking tremendous.

All the best

Lock

Mark_Dugdale · August 17, 2009, 6:27pm

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Mark74 wrote:
Coach CT,

I’m dieting for a competition and am wondering if you might give me your input based on my fat distribution (Biosignature standpoint) as well as a reasonable on-stage body weight. Here’s the numbers:

Pec - 3.5
Subscapular - 9.5
Biceps - 2.5
Triceps - 3
Kidney - 8
Suprailiac - 4
Abdominals - 5.5
Quadriceps - 4
Medial Calf - 3

Body Fat - 5.3%
Body Weight - 219

I’ve been following a low-carb/keto diet with a carb reload once per week - my first time with this approach. I’ve got about 5 weeks left before the competition. Let me know if you would like any additional info.

Cheers,
Mark

Your main problem is genetic insulin sensitivity. Your subscap area is still high, while the other insulin site (suprailiac) is in the proper range compared to the others. This tells me that geneticall you are not built to handle carbs well, but that your current regular carb intake is fine.

At 5 weeks out, in your case I would drop the weekly carb reload and add 30-40g of carbs pre-workout (no carbs the rest of the day). This will give you enough fuel for your workouts. I would drop the weekend load because your body is not built to tolerate a high amount of carbs on a day.

At 2 weeks out you drop the pre-workout carbs too and go straight low carbs until you peak for the show.

You can still drop around 7lbs of fat which will naturally lead to 3-4lbs of water loss. So the weak prior to the show you should be around 208 which normall means that you could drop down to the light-heavies (198) with a proper dehydration protocol.
[/quote]

Thank you for the feedback Coach CT. I understand what you are saying, but my current diet is already pretty low in carbs. I’ll post my training program and diet…please feel free to throw in your 2 cents.

My training program is based on your article: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

I modified it to fit my schedule, but thought it would be helpful in giving you the full picture of how I’m approaching things.

Sunday - AM 30 minutes steady-state cardio (stair-stepper), PM sprints (run the straights, walk the curves, 8 sprints total).

Monday - AM core training circuit (5 exercises), followed by 2 minutes Precor, repeat circuit, 2 minutes Precor, etc… 4 circuits total. PM Heavy Lifting - Chest and Back.

Tuesday - PM Lactate-inducing training circuit followed by 30 minutes steady-state cardio on recumbent bike.

Wednesday - AM 2 hand kettlebell swing (15 reps), followed by 1 minute on stair-stepper, repeat - 10 times thru.

Thursday - AM core training circuit (5 exercises), followed by 2 minutes Precor, repeat circuit, 2 minutes Precor, etc… 4 circuits total. PM Heavy Lifting - Quads and Hams.

Friday - AM Precor 30 seconds fast, 90 seconds slow, repeat - 10 times through.

Saturday - AM Lactate-inducing training circuit followed by 30 minutes steady-state cardio on recumbent bike.

Diet - Monday, Tuesday, Thursday

Macro’s: Carbs - 37, Protein - 285, Fat - 127, 2,431 calories

Meal #1: salmon, almonds, cheese.
Meal #2: chicken, lettuce, olive oil, walnuts.
Meal #3: shake - whey isolate, oil blend (MCT’s, olive oil, CLA).
Meal #4: chicken, lettuce, olive oil, walnuts.
Meal #5: chicken, lettuce, olive oil, walnuts.
Meal #6: shake - whey isolate, oil blend (MCT’s, olive oil, CLA).
Meal #7: chicken, lettuce, olive oil, walnuts.
Intra-workout: whey isolate, EAA’s.
Post-workout: whey isolate.
Meal #8: shake: protein blend. Almonds.

Diet - Wednesday, Friday

Macro’s: Carbs - 17, Protein - 267, Fat - 113, 2,153 calories

Meals consist of essentially the same foods as on training days.

Diet - Saturday

Same as Meal #1 and Meal #2 on training days, but high carbs post-workout consiting of potatoes and/or rice until 4pm (essentially 3 hours after lactate-inducing training and steady-state cardio). From 4pm until bed high BCAA’s, leucine and whey isolate shakes with oil blend mentioned above.

I know that’s a lot of information, but it would be cool to read your thoughts. My biggest concern is I’m only losing about 1 pound per week and at 219 I’m running out of time to make weight.

Cheers,
Mark

Thunderstruck88 · August 19, 2009, 3:44pm

Thib,

When losing fat, what is the approximate impact of water loss on scale weight? For example, when dropping down and having a certain target bodyfat percentage in mind, what impact does water have on what that number will be in reality versus what you think it might be based on a quick calculation? And on the flip side, what’s the typical scale impact of water for each pound of dry muscle added?

Christian_Thibaudeau · August 19, 2009, 8:24pm

[quote]Thunderstruck88 wrote:
Thib,

When losing fat, what is the approximate impact of water loss on scale weight? For example, when dropping down and having a certain target bodyfat percentage in mind, what impact does water have on what that number will be in reality versus what you think it might be based on a quick calculation? And on the flip side, what’s the typical scale impact of water for each pound of dry muscle added? [/quote]

From my experience, and it may vary (but not much) from one individual to the next, throughout a fat loss phase water loss will account for 25% of the total weight loss. If one used a low-carbs diet up to 2lbs of the lost weight should come from glycogen depletion.

So, if somebody loses 25lbs during a 10 weeks fat loss phase he is likely to have lost 17lbs of fat, 2lbs of glycogen and 6lbs of water (provided that no muscle was lost).

Now, glycogen and water are part of the ‘lean body mass/fat-free mass’ portion of the body. So on a body comp test those 8lbs could be misinterpreted as being 'muscle loss", which it really isn’t.

Granted lost subcutaneous and intra-adipocyte (water stored in the fat cells) water loss normally lead to lower caliper measures, so this doesn’t misguide you.

Out of the 6lbs of lost water above, 4 of it is likely to be subcutaneous or intra-adipocyte. So you would actually measure it as fat loss not fat-free mass loss.

To be clear, around 25% of the total weight loss will come from water, 1/3 of which can be misinterpreted as losing muscle and 2/3 of it being misinterpreted as fat loss.

MEYMZ · August 19, 2009, 9:00pm

Hi coach,

whether it’s on a fat loss or muscle gaining phase, or even a carb load, what would be the upper limit of carbs for an individual who tends to store fat in the love handle area/poor insulin sensitivity?

Christian_Thibaudeau · August 19, 2009, 9:16pm

[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
Hi coach,

whether it’s on a fat loss or muscle gaining phase, or even a carb load, what would be the upper limit of carbs for an individual who tends to store fat in the love handle area/poor insulin sensitivity?[/quote]

It’s obviously highly individual and also depends on the physical state you’re in. For example, around workout time you will be able to handle more carbs without storing fat because you will either use them for energy or shuttle them into the muscle. In the morning you also tend to be more insulin sensitive which means that you handle carbs well.

Furthermore, if your glycogen stores are full you are more likely to store consumed carbs as fat because there is no more room in them muscle.

But some facts…

Most peoples start to get an insulin response at around 15-20g of carbs
During an intense lifting workout you will use up around 150g of carbs for energy production
A decent-sized training guy can store around 600g of carbs in his muscles
Unless you are in a ketogenic state, your brain uses around 100g of carbs in a day

So it is pretty darn safe to assume that if you are training hard you can easily handle 250g of carbs a day without storing the carbs as fat.

Around workout time you do not have to worry about insulin, actually spiking insulin pre-workout is good to spark muscle growth. From experience 100-150g of carbs during the pre-workout period is best. So at the lowest intake level that would leave us 100-150g of carbs for the rest of the day. If you stay at 20g of carbs or less per meal you will not risk storing much as fat since the insulin response will not be sharp.

And you can have a bit more at breakfast.

So something like 40g at breakfast, 15-20g per meal (besides breakfast) and 100-150g peri-workout would lead to minimal, if any, fat gain.

Needmassquick · August 19, 2009, 10:11pm

Christian, my friend is about to start working out with me and has been working out for a little over a year now. He’s gotten significantly stronger than when he started and has decent strength for his weight but he’s like 6ft, 155lb. or so, and 14-15%. Would you suggest he cut at this point since his body fat is pretty high even though he’s doesn’t have much mass or would it be better for him to focus on adding muscle/weight at this point?

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

During an intense lifting workout you will use up around 150g of carbs for energy production
[/quote]

What would you consider an intense lifting workout? Obviously this will vary, but I’m curious as to a rough number of work sets/volume

michell · August 21, 2009, 11:35am

Coach

What sympthoms I have to appreciate if I have low levels of potassium during a low carb diet or Keto diet?

Core627 · August 21, 2009, 5:28pm

Coach,

So after spending several months trying to get back into the gym and successfully sticking to a diet plan. Finally dropped 40 pounds and put on a bit of muscle. I am down to about 213 now but I want to get to 200 before I start going for muscle building. I have been running a deficit for some time now. Eating around 2100-2400 cals a day mostly consisting of protein and on workout days a few extra carbs.

I really want to focus on fat loss. I have that unbearable pooch that just won’t go away and my mind is so caught up in working out that I fail to religiously stick to cardio as often as I should. After reading and reading, and then reading some more, I came across your article on shredding fat: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

This definitely struck my fancy and now I am currently in the process of implementing the strategies. Dieting is no issue for me, I have that part down, especially after reading Dr. Clay’s article “shredded at last”. What I needed some guidance on was what you meant with respect to strength training in your article.

When it comes to the strength training and working with the super sets A1/A2 and B1/B2 for the chest/back day, how exactly would I go setting that up? Is it 1 super set for DB chest press/unilateral, 1 for incline/flies and one for decline/dips (just as an example) and that would be my chest exercises, or would these super sets be performed multiple times say twice in order to in the end do 2-3 sets of each individual exercise?

I am slightly confused on this. Obviously it doesn’t have to be exact, and the exercises will vary depending on me, however, just trying to get the right idea for set up so I have a proper base to work from. Any help with this would be great. Thanks for the articles man, real helpful!

Mark_Dugdale · August 21, 2009, 5:41pm

[quote]Core627 wrote:
Coach,

So after spending several months trying to get back into the gym and successfully sticking to a diet plan. Finally dropped 40 pounds and put on a bit of muscle. I am down to about 213 now but I want to get to 200 before I start going for muscle building. I have been running a deficit for some time now. Eating around 2100-2400 cals a day mostly consisting of protein and on workout days a few extra carbs.

I really want to focus on fat loss. I have that unbearable pooch that just won’t go away and my mind is so caught up in working out that I fail to religiously stick to cardio as often as I should. After reading and reading, and then reading some more, I came across your article on shredding fat: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

This definitely struck my fancy and now I am currently in the process of implementing the strategies. Dieting is no issue for me, I have that part down, especially after reading Dr. Clay’s article “shredded at last”. What I needed some guidance on was what you meant with respect to strength training in your article. When it comes to the strength training and working with the super sets A1/A2 and B1/B2 for the chest/back day, how exactly would I go setting that up? Is it 1 super set for DB chest press/unilateral, 1 for incline/flies and one for decline/dips (just as an example) and that would be my chest exercises, or would these super sets be performed multiple times say twice in order to in the end do 2-3 sets of each individual exercise? I am slightly confused on this. Obviously it doesn’t have to be exact, and the exercises will vary depending on me, however, just trying to get the right idea for set up so I have a proper base to work from. Any help with this would be great. Thanks for the articles man, real helpful!

[/quote]

Hey Core627. The article you mentioned by Coach CT is killer. It was a 180 degree from my past training program, but I started it about 4-5 weeks ago. The lactate-induced training is an ass-kicker, but I love it. As for your question regarding the Heavy Lifting Days, I listed below what I do for chest and back. It might be different than what CT had in mind, but it’s working well for me. I tailored it to my personal goals; namely my chest is a strong point so you will see I have more sets for back since it’s a priority. I’ll be curious to see Coach CT’s response.

Monday â?? Heavy Lifting Workout: BACK & CHEST

A1: Seated Cable Pulley Rows 4-6 reps
A2: High Pulley Cross-Rowing 6-8 reps