[quote]lixy wrote:
Not mutually exclusive but it clutters the judgement. You know, some surrender it to God, others (self-proclaimed sophisticated people) to the flag.
[/quote]
Dear Mr./Mrs. Perfect.
You sure show your contempt for your fellow man.
[quote]derek wrote:
Again, I don’t care where you are from. America, Canada, Mexico, Iraq. If you love your country and want the best for it and expect the best from it, you are a patriot. I do not and cannot see a difference depending on where you live.
[/quote]
Does that mean not wanting to be involved in a war in the Middle East makes a person a patriot? Because a lot of people would disagree on that.
[quote]derek wrote:
Rape is not a stronger, more dedicated form of making love.
[/quote]
Have you ever heard of Casanova? He did not distinguish between the two concepts. He saw what he was doing as strong emotional love for women in general. We, who are “rational”, see it for something completely different.
This is exactly the argument being made. Patriotism is nothing more than an excuse tied up in a nice little package called nationalistic pride. You love “your country”. No one is challenging this statement.
We are challenging the idea that patriotism is often used to disqualify political dissension of the status quo, as it was in the case of this thread. As it was pointed out, the protesters are anarchists so the concept of patriotism must already be nonexistent to them.
[quote]lixy wrote:
You know, some surrender it to God, others (self-proclaimed sophisticated people) to the flag.
[/quote]
Why is it that the supposedly more “enlightened” and “tollerant” people I deal with are the most intollerant, bigotted, close-minded bastards I know?
Reading your posts, I see you calling everyone that isn’t you names like racist, self-proclaimed sophisticated people etc. pretty much assuming no one is as cool as you, as smart as you, as enlightened as you, as inclusive as you and on and on.
It’s just like a very Liberal woman I know. All I hear from her is comments like “Get that (3"x5”) flag off your truck, you look like a redneck" and calling people from the more rural parts of town “toothless” and basically shitting on everyone with more money than her regardless of having actually met them or not.
The tollerant Left is so fucking INtollerant it makes me want to puke. And the funny part is that they assume I’m the intollerant, bigotted, homophobic, racist just because I vote Republican.
Of course I have my actual friendship and dating history to shut them up.
EDIT; not all Liberals are this way, just every one I’ve ever met.
[quote]derek wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
If they were waving US flags and praising “the troops” would they need protection? A protest of that nature would serves no purpose. It isn’t focused on “change” but rather legitimizing the status quo which no one feels threatened by. There are reasons why leaders in authoritarian regimes regularly hold these types of rallies and “encourage” the citizens to participate–its called willful indoctrination.
I can understand the desire to protest an act of government such as going to war even though I do not wholly agree with the premise. I do not see why anyone would protest the troops that are doing thier best to do what is right in light of such controversial war. Does anyone think the troops enjoying themselves over there?
What exactly does burning a dummy dressed in BDU’s accomplish other than inciting violence and retribution?
[/quote]
It is for the exact reason that you cite, to cause controversy.
As for why, I cannot answer that other than to suggest that they are naive and lack the frame of reference to understand that the specific actions of the war have nothing to do with the troops but rather the policy that got them there in the first place, whether one agrees with it or not.
[quote]Ren wrote:
Does that mean not wanting to be involved in a war in the Middle East makes a person a patriot? Because a lot of people would disagree on that.[/quote]
I’ve read your question over and over and I still cannot see what you’re asking.
So I’ll try to answer…
If you feel we do not belong in the Middle East, that we should not be literally dying to install a democratic govermnent in a region of the world known for incredible hostility you are still a patriot in my eyes. As long as the countries best interest is your guide.
You don’t need to be pro-war to be a patriot. Personally I think we should tell the world to fuck off and close our borders, kick all illegal aliens out and put a quota number on foreign countries so we get only the best of the best from whatever country can send over applicants.
Yes, I’m a patriot.
[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
So they exercise the rights they have while the government of this country, in contrast with the behavior of many others, does not interfere, while simultaneously refusing to the idea of a country. And we respect their right hold and express their beliefs, because we limit the government under the constitution of this country from exercising its police power to punish them for, or prevent them from, exercising those rights. One might find their opinions therefore rather trivial.
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
What do “unalienable rights” have to do with this country? These are rights that exist, de facto. The US recognizes the need to protect them because it understands the nature of how “free speech” works.
If they were waving US flags and praising “the troops” would they need protection? A protest of that nature would serves no purpose. It isn’t focused on “change” but rather legitimizing the status quo which no one feels threatened by. There are reasons why leaders in authoritarian regimes regularly hold these types of rallies and “encourage” the citizens to participate–its called willful indoctrination.[/quote]
In theory they are unalienable. In practice, you will be beaten and tortured for speaking against government policy in many countries – that might be enough to cause some self-alienation w/r/t exercising those rights…
I’m very pro free speech, and also generally take an “inalienable rights” view in theory. However, one can’t ignore the chilling effect that official government persecution by a country or nation state can have on those rights. Thus, in the U.S., you find protests like these - but when was the last time you have seen someone in Beijing burning a Chinese soldier in effigy?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
derek wrote:
Rape is not a stronger, more dedicated form of making love.
Have you ever heard of Casanova? He did not distinguish between the two concepts. He saw what he was doing as strong emotional love for women in general. We, who are “rational”, see it for something completely different.
[/quote]
Not you, not I nor anyone else can do anything about the Casanova’s out there that pervert otherwise good things. They do not speak for the masses and should be more or less left to rot in thier own self-loathing.
Patriots are NOT racist. Patriots do not think that everone else sucks or are worthless trash. Please everyone stop attributing patriotism to the assholes out there that hate anyone different than themselves.
We have other names for those people.
[quote]derek wrote:
What craze exactly did the neocons embark on again?[/quote]
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
In theory they are unalienable. In practice, you will be beaten and tortured for speaking against government policy in many countries – that might be enough to cause some self-alienation w/r/t exercising those rights…
I’m very pro free speech, and also generally take an “inalienable rights” view in theory. However, one can’t ignore the chilling effect that official government persecution by a country or nation state can have on those rights. Thus, in the U.S., you find protests like these - but when was the last time you have seen someone in Beijing burning a Chinese soldier in effigy?
[/quote]
Of course, in theory it is always practical, but it practice it isn’t always advisable.
What makes man “free” is his acceptance of “fate”. Some men with strong intestinal fortitude can stand-up regardless of the consequenses of their actions and tempt “fate” enough to make a difference–hence, this country. I am not arguing that one bit. Do poeple who regard themsleves as “free”, in point of fact, need authority to act in such a manner?
[quote]lixy wrote:
derek wrote:
What craze exactly did the neocons embark on again?
[/quote]
So you wanna start throwing random links around and asking me to agree or disagree?
How about you ask me your own questions instead of taking the path of least resistance?
[quote]derek wrote:
Reading your posts, I see you calling everyone that isn’t you names like racist, self-proclaimed sophisticated people etc. pretty much assuming no one is as cool as you, as smart as you, as enlightened as you, as inclusive as you and on and on.[/quote]
I know better than call people racists. I dare you to show me anything where i refer to a person as racist or anything of the sort.
Now, if you can’t handle “self-proclaimed sophisticated”, it’s your problem. I have absolutely no problem being one.
[quote]The tollerant Left is so fucking INtollerant it makes me want to puke. And the funny part is that they assume I’m the intollerant, bigitted, homophobic, racist just because I vote Republican.
Of course, I have my actual friendship and dating history to shut them up.
EDIT; not all Liberals are this way, just every one I’ve ever met.[/quote]
Well, guess what? Not all Republicans are intolerant, bigotted, homophobic or racist. It’s just that every Republican your “intolerant left” acquaintances have met turned up that way.
Works both ways, you know…
[quote]derek wrote:
If you feel we do not belong in the Middle East, that we should not be literally dying to install a democratic govermnent in a region of the world known for incredible hostility you are still a patriot in my eyes.[/quote]
The goal isn’t installing a democratic government. That was pretty much a natural process once Saddam was down. What you’re trying to do, is install a pro-American government.
Why else did you punish the Lebanese and Palestinians for voting the wrong way? Venezuela? Haiti? Chile? And the list is long.
Once you acknowledge that, maybe the Iraqi resistance will make more sense to you. If you keep living in denial and pretend that you’re sacrificing your flesh and blood only for the good of the Iraqis, you’ll be confused by these “ungrateful bastards” who kill your troops.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
In theory they are unalienable. In practice, you will be beaten and tortured for speaking against government policy in many countries [/quote]
Indeed. People with power will inevitably find ways to abuse those powers and all kind of horrors ensue from there.
The very same reason those protesters are against the concepts of rulers/country/etc…
[quote]lixy wrote:
I know better than call people racists. I dare you to show me anything where i refer to a person as racist or anything of the sort.
[/quote]
Well the whole topic of racism and equating it to patriotism was your idea, no?
Was it not you that alluded to racism and patriotism? I’m just the one that called you on it.
[quote]derek wrote:
So you wanna start throwing random links around and asking me to agree or disagree?
How about you ask me your own questions instead of taking the path of least resistance?
[/quote]
Good point. Sorry about that.
Well, do you agree with militarization of space? Don’t you think the money that goes to the Pentagon can be put to better use (health care, providing heat for poor families, education…)
Do you think a country with more than 300,000 US troops around the world are doing more good than harm? Do you think the CIA should be abducting, torturing and killing people? Do you agree with their racist agenda? (quote from the PNAC “…advanced forms of biological warfare that can target specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool”).
[quote]lixy wrote:
Well, do you agree with militarization of space? Don’t you think the money that goes to the Pentagon can be put to better use (health care, providing heat for poor families, education…)
Do you think a country with more than 300,000 US troops around the world are doing more good than harm? Do you think the CIA should be abducting, torturing and killing people? Do you agree with their racist agenda? (quote from the PNAC “…advanced forms of biological warfare that can target specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool”).[/quote]
There’s a whole slew of things I believe are wrong on thier face.
Things like sending billions$$$ of aide to other countries (only to get fucked and derided afterward).
Like I said, we’d all be a lot better off telling everyone else to screw and solve thier own problems while we tidy up at home.
I make sure my own lawn is mowed before I worry if my neighbors grass is too high. Especially if he punches my in the eye after every time I mow his lawn for him.
Are people still falling for this? A very small, radical group at an anti-war protest that is made to look like it represents the majority of participants.
I’d say the “Fuck the Troops” banner was just a little too over-the-top OBVIOUS–loved those masks and hoods too, great touch… amateurs.
Up to their old tricks…
The founding document of COINTELPRO directed FBI agents to “expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize” the activities of these movements and their leaders…
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Are people still falling for this? A very small, radical group at an anti-war protest that is made to look like it represents the majority of participants.
…[/quote]
It is all a grand conspiracy. Is it part of the conspiracy that the media ignore these clowns too?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
It is all a grand conspiracy. Is it part of the conspiracy that the media ignore these clowns too?[/quote]
The media largely ignores or minimizes ALL anti-war protests. I’m sure these clowns will get plenty of Fox News coverage though.
You can scoff at the conspiracy angle all you want but the FACT remains that the government has been busted using these exact tactics as S.O.P. on a very wide scale…
To think that the BUSH administration isn’t doing more of the same is just downright NAIVE.